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you da man
02-26-2010, 10:49 AM
I've noticed that once people ditch the stock ballast system/manifold for custom systems that they do not use a water strainer. Any concerns not having one and does having one restrict the water flow alot? I'm thinking of going the route of JesseC large diameter manifold with the large sprinkler valves.

brain_rinse
02-26-2010, 11:03 AM
The strainer is only there for the benefit of the valves. Once you pull those it's no longer needed.

you da man
02-26-2010, 01:45 PM
Hmmmm. So if I go the route with those large sprinkler valves then I guess I should have a strainer.

brain_rinse
02-26-2010, 01:53 PM
Personally, I would make sure to have a strainer with any valves. If you think about it those valves were designed to be used in residential irrigation where they essentially run on tap water. Plants, sand, sediment, etc. all have the possibility to cause problems. There might be some valves that are intended for use with unfiltered water though? Not sure on that...

DOCDRS
02-26-2010, 06:02 PM
the design of jesse's highflow head being less restrictive is less apt to get strangled up by small debris. That being said a strainer on any water intake IS a good idea. The new intakes are perforated on the intake to prevent twigs and such from being sucked up and because the flow is bi directional should clear itself on ballast emptying. Jesse's intake is not cut off like the others have been and there for larger foreign material may get sucked up. But everything does have to make its way thru the intake pump before it ever reaches a strainer or valve on the older gIII.

JesseC
02-28-2010, 06:25 PM
The Irritrol 700 series valves I went with are advertised to not have issues with debris. I took one apart to check out it's workings and found that there was a small screen on the intlet that goes to the solenoid. Any debris that enters the main inlet of the valve will just pass through. With the valves I went with, the 3/4" are too small and the 1 1/2" require too much pressure. The 1" seems to be working for me, at leat on the sawhorses in the driveway. Two mor months or so before I can give it a try on the lake.

DOCDRS
02-28-2010, 07:52 PM
I would also think that with the scupper you have that filling when your moving would help reduce fill times as well, plus help to increase water pressure at the valves.

Fman
03-01-2010, 01:03 AM
Just a question.... with all the problems that Skiers Choice had with sprinkler valves, why on earth would you go ahead and re-install more of them?!?! There are some great options for ballast fill systems that dont use sprinkler valves, they are not designed for wakeboard boats.... "sprinkler valves" is the key word. Great upgrade for your irrigation system at your house!

Sorry, not trying to bash his system, there are just so many other "proven" options. If sprinkler valves were that great they would be in Mastercraft, Nautique, Malibu and all other wakeboard boats.

you da man
03-01-2010, 09:46 AM
I don't think the sprinkler valve system is a bad design, I just think they didn't build it with the equipment large enough to have the flow times we would like. If Jesse's system works as planned I think it will be a nice alternative to running loop lines in every compartment and trying to hide the loop line for the center sac. Too bad it will be a couple months until he can test in the real environment. Either way, I'm either doing the vented loop or Jesse's system

JesseC
03-01-2010, 10:17 AM
Just a question.... with all the problems that Skiers Choice had with sprinkler valves, why on earth would you go ahead and re-install more of them?!?! There are some great options for ballast fill systems that dont use sprinkler valves, they are not designed for wakeboard boats.... "sprinkler valves" is the key word. Great upgrade for your irrigation system at your house!

Sorry, not trying to bash his system, there are just so many other "proven" options. If sprinkler valves were that great they would be in Mastercraft, Nautique, Malibu and all other wakeboard boats.

As to skiers choice having problems with the sprinkler valves, that is an incorrect statement. I have never heard of a "problem". I have heard complaints of them not filling as fast as some people would want them to or having to flip a switch that was left in the wrong position, but they have always worked without failing or bags filling on their own. The only place they had an issue was with the size and flow of them.

In my boat an older LSV model there is not enough room for multiple pumps, the bilge area is fairly small and already packed full. A multiple pump setup will not work for me so that is why I went the route of the valves. The only way to get multiple pumps to work would be to mount them higher and fight cavitation issues. So far my tests using 5 gallon buckets show a huge improvement over my old valve setup. I would like to hear some of the options that you speak of and would GLADLY entertain building one of them and testing it.

byronkoz
03-01-2010, 03:37 PM
Jesse, have you tried seing if multiple pumps would fit? I ask because I took out the sprinkler valves and allready bought 3 more Tsunami pumps and am puting togeather a manifold for them next week. I looked and didnt thing id have any problem squeezing them in down by the floor going accross the same direction as the springler valves?

JesseC
03-01-2010, 03:42 PM
Jesse, have you tried seing if multiple pumps would fit? I ask because I took out the sprinkler valves and allready bought 3 more Tsunami pumps and am puting togeather a manifold for them next week. I looked and didnt thing id have any problem squeezing them in down by the floor going accross the same direction as the springler valves?

I actually built a 3 pump Tsunami setup and tried it out in my boat. My valves were mounted on top of the v-drive and when I put the manifold with the three Tsunamis up there, I had issues with cavitation. I then cut the manifold down to just one pump and put it at the bottom of the bilge and it worked fine there, but I did not have enough room for all three. With the setup I have put together and tested in the driveway (Boat is still in Hibernation), I achieved results that I deemed acceptable. Look into the "How To" section and check out my manifold build, you will see the reason I started building a new manifold. The old one worked fine, just needed to add to it.

Fman
03-01-2010, 03:58 PM
As to skiers choice having problems with the sprinkler valves, that is an incorrect statement. I have never heard of a "problem". I have heard complaints of them not filling as fast as some people would want them to or having to flip a switch that was left in the wrong position, but they have always worked without failing or bags filling on their own. The only place they had an issue was with the size and flow of them.

In my boat an older LSV model there is not enough room for multiple pumps, the bilge area is fairly small and already packed full. A multiple pump setup will not work for me so that is why I went the route of the valves. The only way to get multiple pumps to work would be to mount them higher and fight cavitation issues. So far my tests using 5 gallon buckets show a huge improvement over my old valve setup. I would like to hear some of the options that you speak of and would GLADLY entertain building one of them and testing it.

I must have been one of the unlucky ones, I had many priming problems, and bags filling when they were not supposed to. This happened on multiple occassions, this is why I re-did my system on my '08 22V. There were other owners on the Supra site that also had these problems, along with the stated extremely slow fill times. My belief is the engine compartment area is just to hot and gets way to much vibration/jolting from driving the boat which causes these valves to fail.

I personally believe, if they were that great of a design every other wakeboard boat manufacturer would have them in there boat. I have yet to see ANY other manufacturers putting them in there boat.

Just my .02.... I hope it works out well for you, but I would also encourage you to look at other proven options that are working very well (ie: Tsunami's, or JABSCO pumps).

Fman
03-01-2010, 04:00 PM
I actually built a 3 pump Tsunami setup and tried it out in my boat. My valves were mounted on top of the v-drive and when I put the manifold with the three Tsunamis up there, I had issues with cavitation. I then cut the manifold down to just one pump and put it at the bottom of the bilge and it worked fine there, but I did not have enough room for all three. With the setup I have put together and tested in the driveway (Boat is still in Hibernation), I achieved results that I deemed acceptable. Look into the "How To" section and check out my manifold build, you will see the reason I started building a new manifold. The old one worked fine, just needed to add to it.

That is correct, if you do not mount the Tsunamis below the draft line in the boat they will not prime properly. The lower they are in the boat, the better they perform.

JesseC
03-01-2010, 04:18 PM
Trust me, I would have LOVED to have gone the route of the Jabscos, but they were way too expensive of an option. I was looking for a way to upgrade the ballast with a low cost of install and be the least evasive to the boat itself. To install the Jabsco setup, you have to cut two more holes in the hull and add a lot of plumbing. I agree with you that the valves and single pump are not the best setup that you can install, but they are one of the most simple and least amount of cutting on the boat. My old setup was running three valves that I changed to a better flowing brand, again you are correct, the ones Skiers Choice chose were less than optimal. My old setup was using 3/4 valves of a different design and the flow times were impressive...to me anyway. Now I have a 4 valve setup using all 1" connections and a much larger pump. I wanted as few conections as possible to eliminate failure so I only have one hole in the boat and very few moving parts. I would have also like to have used the three Tsunamis, but the flow times on the manifold that I would have had to use were much slower than 4 valves and a Rule 3800.

Thanks for the other suggestions, I am sure that peolpe with newer versions of the LSV that have more room may find the three tsunami setup to work better for them. In my case if one of those pumps dies, it would be next to impossible to change one in that tiny space.

2007 Outback V
03-01-2010, 04:45 PM
jesseC - I totally agree with you, very little room to mount pumps around the V-drive in the Outback and older LSVs'. It was quite a task to build a manifold that would fit. I choose to go with Simer reversible pumps and a manifold. http://moomba.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=10003

I have not water tested the system yet. Since you have some experience with testing different systems, I was wondering if you could offer up some advice? In theory my system should work, what do you think? I would hate to have completely over looked something and find a critical flaw in the start of the season.

Thanks

byronkoz
03-01-2010, 07:56 PM
Just went out to the boat with my tsunami pumps and space wont be an issue. Looks like there should be plenty of room to get them down the side of the motor on the bottom of the hull. Not sure they'd fit accross the front under the v-drive though.

JesseC
03-01-2010, 09:55 PM
jesseC - I totally agree with you, very little room to mount pumps around the V-drive in the Outback and older LSVs'. It was quite a task to build a manifold that would fit. I choose to go with Simer reversible pumps and a manifold. http://moomba.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=10003

I have not water tested the system yet. Since you have some experience with testing different systems, I was wondering if you could offer up some advice? In theory my system should work, what do you think? I would hate to have completely over looked something and find a critical flaw in the start of the season.

Thanks

On those pumps, have you researched how far they can draw suction from a water source. What I mean is some pumps will not cavitate, but can run on suction and prime themselves. I believe that the type of pumps you have should prime themselves. I just had good luck with the valves and large pump below the water line. Here is my super sketchy testing setup from last year where I installed the 3/4" valves. I did not take pics of the new setup being tested, but it was pretty much the same test. The results below are from a Rule 2000gph pump, three 3/4" valves and 3/4" lines.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q21/StarkRaven/flowtest006.jpg
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q21/StarkRaven/flowtest003.jpg
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q21/StarkRaven/flowrates.jpg

JesseC
03-01-2010, 10:00 PM
Just went out to the boat with my tsunami pumps and space wont be an issue. Looks like there should be plenty of room to get them down the side of the motor on the bottom of the hull. Not sure they'd fit accross the front under the v-drive though.

Excellent!!! Go with the Tsunamis if you can fit them. Check with some of the others to see if you need to run the vented loops. With the Tsunami setup I was worried about the scupper putting too much pressure on the pumps and forcing water past the pumps and filling the bags while driving. Let me know how your fill times and how it works out for you. Where and how do you plan on getting power to the pumps?

you da man
03-01-2010, 11:12 PM
Where and how do you plan on getting power to the pumps?

If you have the GGIII system with the stock sprinkler valves the 3 Tsunami 800 pumps most are using are direct wire from the sprinkler valve wires once you remove the valves.

Fman
03-01-2010, 11:21 PM
Jesse,

Looks like you have a good idea going for what will work for your boat, maybe Skiers Choice just used a low budget valve that was poorly designed. I chose to go with the Tsunamis because I like how reliable they are and they pump a good flow rate (11-13 GPM per pump). I was able to install them close to the bottom of the boat, but it is a pretty tight fit.

I hope your design works well for you, thats all that matters. Send some pictures when you get it installed.

2007 Outback V
03-01-2010, 11:28 PM
JesseC - just as an FYI, the Simer pumps are suppose to be able to self prime with the pump up to 10ft above the water source.

JesseC
03-01-2010, 11:30 PM
JesseC - just as an FYI, the Simer pumps are suppose to be able to self prime with the pump up to 10ft above the water source.

Perfect!! You should have a good system on your hands!! What is the flow rate of those pumps?

you da man
03-01-2010, 11:32 PM
JesseC - just as an FYI, the Simer pumps are suppose to be able to self prime with the pump up to 10ft above the water source.

Are the Simer pumps rated to be used in the engine compartment due to fumes and spark?

byronkoz
03-01-2010, 11:35 PM
Excellent!!! Go with the Tsunamis if you can fit them. Check with some of the others to see if you need to run the vented loops. With the Tsunami setup I was worried about the scupper putting too much pressure on the pumps and forcing water past the pumps and filling the bags while driving. Let me know how your fill times and how it works out for you. Where and how do you plan on getting power to the pumps?

Yeah I allready got the 3 vented loops and ordered the hose and fittings. Only need to get the two extra switches im gonna need but I want to get the matching switches to the one I have.

To be honest I really havent figured out yet how im running all the power since im upgrading from the gravity I. As you know Jesse I only used the one surf sac on the goofy side so im really kinda starting from scratch.

JesseC
03-01-2010, 11:40 PM
Jesse,

Looks like you have a good idea going for what will work for your boat, maybe Skiers Choice just used a low budget valve that was poorly designed. I chose to go with the Tsunamis because I like how reliable they are and they pump a good flow rate (11-13 GPM per pump). I was able to install them close to the bottom of the boat, but it is a pretty tight fit.

I hope your design works well for you, thats all that matters. Send some pictures when you get it installed.

When I tested the new setup, I measured and cut all my hoses to their exact lenghts and hooked them up to the manifold. I then took the entire setup with every fitting on the hoses to get a true test. Just running the pumps and discharging the water will give you a false test. You must test with all the hoses and true lenghts to measure your gph/gpm. I took the setup and hooked it up to my sketchy saw horse 5 gallon bucket test setup. In my timed tests to transfer 5 gallons of water from one bucket to the other here are the results with the 3/4" and the 1"

3/4" valves and hoses - 10 gpm or 600 gph
1" valves and hoses - 13 gpm or 800 gph

REMEMBER - these times were taken while going through the entires system, valves and full length hoses. This time is greatly different than just discharging from the pump(s).

JesseC
03-01-2010, 11:43 PM
Yeah I allready got the 3 vented loops and ordered the hose and fittings. Only need to get the two extra switches im gonna need but I want to get the matching switches to the one I have.

To be honest I really havent figured out yet how im running all the power since im upgrading from the gravity I. As you know Jesse I only used the one surf sac on the goofy side so im really kinda starting from scratch.

In my setup, I plan on getting fused power from the starter and going to a set of relays mounted to the back of one of the cargo areas. I did not want to get power from the solenoid wires. To me that is asking a lot of current to be passed through that circuit board or switches and I would rather use relays with a closer power source. I am going to try and do the wiring this week and will post pics of the status.

2007 Outback V
03-02-2010, 08:43 PM
Perfect!! You should have a good system on your hands!! What is the flow rate of those pumps?

Max flow rate is 10 gallons per minute. I expect to see somewhere between 8-9 gal/min.

2007 Outback V
03-02-2010, 08:50 PM
Are the Simer pumps rated to be used in the engine compartment due to fumes and spark?

Nope that is the downfall.....NOT ignition protected. That is why I mounted them where I did. In the OBV there is very little room to mount reversible pumps in the engine compartment.

Either way, I think the pumps should work well. They are meant to be used as utility pumps, pumping water out of a flooded basements and such. Filling ballast bags should be very little strain on them.

Fman
03-02-2010, 11:01 PM
When I tested the new setup, I measured and cut all my hoses to their exact lenghts and hooked them up to the manifold. I then took the entire setup with every fitting on the hoses to get a true test. Just running the pumps and discharging the water will give you a false test. You must test with all the hoses and true lenghts to measure your gph/gpm. I took the setup and hooked it up to my sketchy saw horse 5 gallon bucket test setup. In my timed tests to transfer 5 gallons of water from one bucket to the other here are the results with the 3/4" and the 1"

3/4" valves and hoses - 10 gpm or 600 gph
1" valves and hoses - 13 gpm or 800 gph

REMEMBER - these times were taken while going through the entires system, valves and full length hoses. This time is greatly different than just discharging from the pump(s).

That is a definite true statement, my Tsunami 800's are rated for 13.4 GPM, I think I am getting about 11 GPM to the bags when filling. Still not too bad, and much better than the stock GIII RULE pump system. The more line you run the more friction loss you will get and loose GPM's.