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cab13367
04-22-2010, 11:58 AM
Everyone,

My next project will be to upgrade the ballast system and I am currently reading what everyone has done and considering all options. What would be really helpful to me (and to others I'm sure) is to see some quantitative data, i.e., actual, accurate (timed, not estimated) fill times. For example, when I did the prop testing recently, I timed how long it took for my stock system to fill 1,310 lbs of ballast from empty. I considered the ballast full once water started coming out of the evac thru hull fitting. As soon as it did that, I shut off that switch. When water started coming out of evac thru hull fitting of the last bag, I stopped the timer.

So please post up your fill times and a brief description of your set up (# and size of intakes, size of fill hoses, model and # of pumps, + anything else you think is relevant). If you timed your system before the upgrade, please post that data too.

I'll start with some baseline data:

Stock G3 ballast system on 2006 LSV (one 3/4" intake, one 2000 GPH Rule pump, sprinkler valves), 1,310 lbs of ballast (455#x2 + 400#) took 14 min, 55 seconds to fill with boat at rest. Note: bags were not completely empty - they had been filled then emptied to the point that no more water was coming out of the evac fittings with boat at rest (but there was still some water in the bags).

If haven't timed your system yet, please do so next time you go out and post your fill times here. For consistency, please do this with your boat at rest as filling with boat underway will decrease fill times. Thanks in advance and let's keep this thread going!

Al

stretch55
04-22-2010, 06:27 PM
Al remember the system I was saying that I was going to put in? The 3 Tsunami 800's on the intake and drain side. Your system will be based on your biggest bag. For instance my biggest bag rightnow is a 550lb (16"x16"60" x.036=552lbs) the system I am putting says it will fill 110lbs a min. realisticly we'll say 100lbs a min. So my new system will fill in 5.53 min so roughly 5 min 35 sec. If your biggest bag is 455lb then you would be right around 4.55 min so about 4 min 35 sec. Just a simple way to figure out the tsunami fill times. The tsunami 1200 say 166lbs a min and the Tsunami 800 syas 110lbs a min. But remember Intake and line lengths will reduce those numbers. So it's a good rule to knock 10% off of those fill times.
Hope this helps.

gus 08 mobius lsv
04-22-2010, 09:11 PM
i have the factory set up didn't touch a thing just added the larger 750 lb bags and it took 14 minutes for them to fill up competely. i am happy with that cause it always takes time to get to the ski zone and get the gear out.

DOCDRS
04-22-2010, 10:03 PM
First off you need to actually measure your bag. I really don't believe they are as big as posted....I have measured mine. so the weights are suspect and may be out a 100lbs + or -. Anyways I can fill 2800lbs in 10 minutes and i have video proof. I figure the 1100's only hold about 1000lbs and the 750 prob only hold about 680lbs. Just my opinion from measurements taken. food for thought

cab13367
04-23-2010, 01:53 AM
First off you need to actually measure your bag. I really don't believe they are as big as posted....I have measured mine. so the weights are suspect and may be out a 100lbs + or -. Anyways I can fill 2800lbs in 10 minutes and i have video proof. I figure the 1100's only hold about 1000lbs and the 750 prob only hold about 680lbs. Just my opinion from measurements taken. food for thought

Doc,

Even if the capacity of the bags is a little less than advertised, that's still fast. What ballast system does your boat have?

Thx.

Al

DOCDRS
04-23-2010, 02:17 PM
its the jabsco sytem

sailing217
04-23-2010, 02:43 PM
We did this test with an equal environment on the centurioncrew website. A lot of variables, but here is the quick overview.

Most pumps are close to their rating until you put sprinkler valves between it and the bags. Jabsco Ballast Puppies with sprinkler valves did not reduce the flow time much at all.
Airator pumps like Mayfair, Johnson, Tsunami 1200 had their fill FLOW cut almost half if sprinkler valves were used. I think it was rated for 14gpm and actually with 3/4" hose was 6+gpm

IF you pull the springs on the sprinkler valves for better flow, Airator pumps are about the same as Jabsco Water puppies. I think Jabsco was still at 9gpm and airator pumps were around 10ish.

I don't have the link handy but I do have the springs on my sprinkler pumps pulled out and my ballast puppy could fill my enzo sac (1500lbs) in 14.5-16 minutes

I'm going off my head so don't shoot me on it, but you can look at Centcrew probably page 2 or 3 for the lengthy test.

sailing217
04-23-2010, 02:50 PM
Doc: do you have a jabsco pump directly to each bag (ie 3 seperate pumps feeding 3 bags bags). If so that sounds about right.

I'm going to leave my single jabsco and 3 bags and 'T' off my through-hull and add a tsunami 1200 with 1" line directly to my new 1100lb bag.

My single jabsco and sprinkler valves with springs removed is filling 2000lbs+ total right around 20 min mark.

DOCDRS
04-23-2010, 05:05 PM
your right 3 pumps 3 bags, some boring videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6KczuaHxLU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1zLBOeMr_g&feature=channel

mmandley
04-24-2010, 08:38 AM
I herd some chatter last season about taking out the springs in the Sprinkler valves. Does this have any ill effects? I understand the procedure of removing them.

If i remove the springs whats the effect other then faster fill times? Every benefit generally comes with a negative.

tazz3069
04-25-2010, 09:33 PM
I herd some chatter last season about taking out the springs in the Sprinkler valves. Does this have any ill effects? I understand the procedure of removing them.

If i remove the springs whats the effect other then faster fill times? Every benefit generally comes with a negative.

That was one of my experiments. It did not work. The spring helps keep the diaphragm closed. I remove the spring and water went through the valve and the bag filled with water.

sailing217
04-26-2010, 10:53 AM
You're right, there is always a negative to a positive.

I get some water in my other bags if I'm trying to fill just one.

If I was building from scratch I wouldn't have sprinkler valves, but a pump for each bag. Eventually I'll re-do it that way.

Txskyski
04-26-2010, 09:54 PM
I don't mean to hijack the thread, but have any of y'all seen one of these before? It might be a little less convenient but imagine the fill times!
http://houston.craigslist.org/spo/1706201122.html

you da man
04-26-2010, 10:14 PM
My personal opinion is that the Johnson reversible pumps are going to be the most practical and fastest system given you have one for each bag and a dedicated intake. That's the route I'm going.

jasonwm
04-27-2010, 04:27 PM
My personal opinion is that the Johnson reversible pumps are going to be the most practical and fastest system given you have one for each bag and a dedicated intake. That's the route I'm going.
A system with one pump per bag will definitely be the fastest, regardless of the type of whether or not the pump is a flexible vane impeller like the Jabsco or Johnson or an aerator like the Attwood.

From a plumbing and installation standpoint flexible vane impeller pumps are the easiest, but an aerator based system can be just as fast and functional if installed correctly.

We've been VERY impressed with the Johnson pumps so far, they're significantly faster than the Jabsco, and if you already have a switch, the cost savings is considerable (even if you need switches, they're still cheaper than the Jabscos).

Either one is a great pump, it's just nice to have a choice now.

gregski
11-13-2013, 08:52 PM
We did this test with an equal environment on the centurioncrew website.
I found that thread and it has some very interesting data. You have to register to even view the centurioncrew forum, so I'm copying one summary post here. Link: http://www.centurioncrew.com/index.php/topic/1970-aerator-pumps-electric-valves-controlled-test/page-4#entry20855

His test isn't exactly perfect because the pump is above the water line - sucking water instead of pushing it but I think it's close enough to draw conclusions.
My conclusions:

The aerator pumps will never be faster than the impeller pumps. The Tsunami is just slight faster than the Jabsco totally unrestricted but the aerator pumps lose volume very quickly with added pump head (vertical height from pump outflow or restrictions such as the hose, fittings, etc.)
In his tests, the Johnson pump outperformed the Jabsco by 17-31% depending on the setup.
If using the irrigation valve method, Irritrol valves perform much better than the Orbital valves when using aerator pumps. These valves really hurt the performance of the aerator pumps but the impeller pumps are affected less. (I read that the only problem is that the Irritrol selenoids aren't specified as ignition proof, but they are water proof which probably means they are sealed well enough to be ignition proof but no guarantees.)



Today I completed the backyard test of the Johnson Ultra Ballast pump and the 1” Irritrol 700 Series Valve with and without the internal spring installed. I have incorporated the results of these tests into the previous posted test data.

To conduct these tests I utilized the following:
- Swimming pool (unrestricted water source)
- 12 vdc Lawn & Garden Battery with 160 cold cranking amps from Pep Boys
- Jabsco Ballast Puppy Advertised @ 11 GPM or 660 GPH
- Johnson Ultra Ballast Pump Advertised @ 13.7 GPM or 822 GPH
- Mayfair 1000 aerator pump Advertised @ 16.66 GPM or 1000 GPH
- Tsunami 1200 aerator pump Advertised @ 20 GPM or 1200 GPH
- 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve with the internal spring installed
- 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve without the internal spring installed
- 1” brass 12 vdc valve
- 1” Irritrol 700 Series Valve with the internal spring installed
- 1” Irritrol 700 Series Valve without the internal spring installed
- 1.25” OD x 1” ID vinyl hose (no kinks)
- 3 orange Home Depot 5-gallon buckets measured at 1-gallon increments
- Stop watch set to countdown 1 minute with alarm

Each setup was tested three separate times to validate the accuracy of the test and the test was not begun until a maximum stream of water had commenced. The “Unrestricted Test” was measured with a 3’ section of 1.25” OD x 1” ID vinyl hose from the pool to the pump and a 3’ section of 1.25” OD x 1” ID vinyl hose from the pump to the 5 gallon bucket without a valve attached. Each of the pumps and valves were new out of the box.

Here are the results for the Jabsco Ballast Puppy pump:
Advertised @ 11 GPM or 660 GPH
Unrestricted Test: 11.5 GPM or 690 GPH
1” Orbit Jar Top Valve with internal spring: 8.0 GPM or 480 GPH
1” Orbit Jar Top Valve without internal spring: 9.5 GPM or 570 GPH
1” brass 12 vdc valve: 10.0 GPM or 600 GPH
1” Irritrol 700 Series Valve with the internal spring installed: 9.0 GPM or 540 GPH
1” Irritrol 700 Series Valve without the internal spring installed: 9.5 GPM or 570 GPH

Here are the results for the Johnson Ultra Ballast pump:
Advertised @ 13.7 GPM or 822 GPH
Unrestricted Test: 13.5 GPM or 810 GPH
1” Orbit Jar Top Valve with internal spring: 9.5 GPM or 570 GPH
1” Orbit Jar Top Valve without internal spring: 12.25 GPM or 735 GPH
1” brass 12 vdc valve: 12.5 GPM or 750 GPH
1” Irritrol 700 Series Valve with the internal spring installed: 12.25 GPM or 735 GPH
1” Irritrol 700 Series Valve without the internal spring installed: 12.5 GPM or 750 GPH




Here are the results for the Mayfair 1000 aerator pump:
Advertised @ 16.66 GPM or 1000 GPH
Unrestricted Test: 10 GPM or 600 GPH
1” Orbit Jar Top Valve with internal spring: 3 GPM or 180 GPH
1” Orbit Jar Top Valve without internal spring: 6.5 GPM or 390 GPH
Ύ” brass 12 vdc valve: 6.5 GPM or 390 GPH
1” brass 12 vdc valve: 7.5 GPM or 450 GPH
1” Irritrol 700 Series Valve with the internal spring installed: 5.75 GPM or 345 GPH
1” Irritrol 700 Series Valve without the internal spring installed: 7.75 GPM or 465 GPH

Here are results for the Tsunami 1200 aerator pump:
Advertised @ 20.0 GPM or 1200 GPH
Unrestricted Test: 13 GPM or 780 GPH
1” Orbit Jar Top Valve with internal spring: 3 GPM or 180 GP
1” Orbit Jar Top Valve without internal spring: 6.5 GPM or 390 GPH
Ύ” brass 12 vdc valve: 6.5 GPM or 390 GPH
1” brass 12 vdc valve: 7.5 GPM or 450 GPH
1” Irritrol 700 Series Valve with the internal spring installed: 6.25 GPM or 375 GPH
1” Irritrol 700 Series Valve without the internal spring installed: 9.5 GPM or 570 GPH

The height of the 5-gallon bucket utilized was 14.5 inches, but I held the hose slightly above the bucket at approximately 18 inches. Why is this important? For those not familiar with aerator type pumps; aerator type pumps such as the Tsunami 1200 and the Mayfair 1000 move high volumes of water, but at a very low pressure. A pump’s max flow is rated at what is referred to as “Open Flow” or inlet-to-outlet, nothing attached. Anytime an aerator pump has to push water upward there is going to be a significant drop in max flow rate as can be seen with the Tsunami pump which had a tested flow rate of 13 GPM or 780 GPH at 18 inches vertical. Here is a link to the Rule 1100 aerator pump which advertises a flow rate of 18.33 GPM or 1100 GPH, but according to the chart at 3.35’ it flows 13.17 GPM or 790 GPH (a significant drop) http://www.rule-indu...emdoc134791.pdf

My first concern with removing the internal spring from the 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve and the 1” Irritrol 700 Series Valve was that with no power applied to the valve (valve closed) that there may be a possibility of the inlet pressure unseating the diaphragm and allowing water to pass through the valve. The 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve without the internal spring installed remained closed and no water passed through, but the 1” Irritrol 700 Series Valve without the internal spring installed initially allowed water to pass through for about 3 seconds and then reseated itself and no additional water passed through. For those wondering, the Jabsco Ballast Puppy pump came with the green colored impeller installed and the battery was recharged between test sets.

As can be seen from the test data, removing the internal spring from the 1” Orbit Jar Top Valve and the 1” Irritrol 700 Series Valve had a significant affect on water flow (way to go CenturionSkier!). It also appears from the test that when utilizing either of these two aerator pumps that the diaphragm type valves will have a significant impact on max flow rate. Incorporating a valve also had an impact on the max flow rate of the impeller pumps, but to a lesser degree due to the increased pressure of the impeller type pumps.

As Bigshow pointed out, we can probably expect to get a slight increase in output from these pumps if they are being feed 14 vdc from the boats electrical system.

<snip>

kaneboats
11-14-2013, 10:55 AM
Great stuff. Thanks for posting this. It should be very helpful.