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cab13367
04-23-2010, 07:34 PM
After much research, I think I have a plan for my ballast system upgrade. In summary, I plan to have the stock fill pump feed one sac from a dedicated intake and two 1200s sharing a 1 intake with each 1200 feeding one sac. The details are as follows:

1. Get rid of the sprinkler valves and the manifold (that was a given).
2. Leave existing Rule 2000 gph fill pump and intake and run 1 hose from the pump to the port side rear sac. Install a 1 check valve in the fill line between the sac and the fill pump to prevent water from draining out of the bag.
3. Install a new 1 intake, shut off valve, and tee fitting and install two new Tsunami T-1200 pumps, one on either side of the tee. Run 1 fill hose from one 1200 to the ski locker sac and incorporate a 1 vented loop in the fill line. Run 1 fill hose from the other 1200 to the starboard rear sac and incorporate a 1 check valve in the fill line.

I know the issues with the T-1200s and 1 fittings and have that figured out.

The reason for using check valves in the fill lines to the rear bags and a vented loop in the fill line for the front sac is that Im told the rear sacs will not fill while underway since they sit up high the check valve is needed to prevent water from draining out of the bag. This is what I have been told - can anyone confirm that the rear bags will not fill when the boat is moving if I have between the pump and the bag except for the fill hose?

The front locker bag will fill when underway and drain while sitting so a vented loop is required to prevent both.

FYI, I have three sacs 455# in each rear locker and 400# in the center ski locker. Oh, I guess I have a fourth sac a 750# that I swap for one of the 455s when surfing. So the most I would need to fill at one time is 1300#s.

I already have one T-1200 and I want to reuse the Rule 2000 so I am going this route in order to use the two pumps I already have.

Please let me know your thoughts on this system, good or bad.

Thanks,

Al

DOCDRS
04-23-2010, 09:51 PM
looks good .....how much impedance will the check valve give vs a vented loop on each bag with no impedance? i guess your doing it to save 80 on 2 loops?

cab13367
04-24-2010, 12:47 AM
looks good .....how much impedance will the check valve give vs a vented loop on each bag with no impedance? i guess your doing it to save 80 on 2 loops?

Doc,

The check valves supposedly have very little resistance, probably about the same as the vented loops since you have to position the loops up high which.

Yes, the check valves are half the price of the vented loops but more importantly, it makes for easier hose routing as you don't have to elevate them above the bags like you do the vented loops.

Al

DOCDRS
04-24-2010, 03:59 AM
sounds good then all bases covered, good work, how lond till trial?

mmandley
04-24-2010, 09:28 AM
Al im curious as to having both your 1200 on the same intake, are you planning to run a powered switch to both pumps separately?

This way they both run independent?

IM not sure about the whole idea of just a check valve for the rear bags eighter.

My understanding of why we need the Vented Loop is not only to help the bag not drain threw the fill line but to also allow it to not fill while under way. I know in my sprinkler valve they get stuck open a little and my rear bags fill while under way.

I like your idea so fare though. I might have to be your second on this and follow your tracks LOL.

My plan as of right now is to run my T800s as drain pumps to stop the issue with bags not draining because the T800s are a much more efficient pump then the aerators.

As for fill system im on the fence and that's where all your ideas come into play. I cant decide to go with Irritol valves or a pump system. Im leaning towards a pump system because it seems more reliable and honestly with the amount of money i spent on my stereo id look like an idiot to say spending money on my boat is an issue LOL.

cab13367
04-24-2010, 12:24 PM
Hold the presses, I've got some breaking news! Forgive me if you already know this but the stock fill pump, Rule model 207F, also known as the Rule 2000, is in fact a 1200 gph pump, NOT 2000 gph as the model number would imply. I've seen this on several places now. Below is a spec sheet that I pulled off an online retailer's site (see the first row in the third table and the corresponding pic to the right of it) as well as a link to another retailer that shows the 1200 gph flow rate.

http://www.livebaitlarry.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=25_32&products_id=238&zenid=tds3it8cgu46a1hoqskpb08205

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg276/cab13367/RuleSpecs.jpg

cab13367
04-24-2010, 12:26 PM
So back to the drawing board. I have to rethink my system now since running three T-800's off one 1" intake is a much better upgrade to the stock system than I initially thought and is relatively inexpesive as well since I don't have to change out the fill hoses or add additional intakes.

cab13367
04-24-2010, 12:34 PM
Al im curious as to having both your 1200 on the same intake, are you planning to run a powered switch to both pumps separately?

This way they both run independent?

IM not sure about the whole idea of just a check valve for the rear bags eighter.

My understanding of why we need the Vented Loop is not only to help the bag not drain threw the fill line but to also allow it to not fill while under way. I know in my sprinkler valve they get stuck open a little and my rear bags fill while under way.

I like your idea so fare though. I might have to be your second on this and follow your tracks LOL.

My plan as of right now is to run my T800s as drain pumps to stop the issue with bags not draining because the T800s are a much more efficient pump then the aerators.

As for fill system im on the fence and that's where all your ideas come into play. I cant decide to go with Irritol valves or a pump system. Im leaning towards a pump system because it seems more reliable and honestly with the amount of money i spent on my stereo id look like an idiot to say spending money on my boat is an issue LOL.

Mike,

Yes, I would take the wiring from the sprinkler valves and connect them to the new pump. So when you hit fill, it turns that pump on.

The reason your rear bags filled while underway is because of the scupper on your intake. You'll have to drill holes on the scupper to ventilate it, cut it off, or replace it with a mushroom type intake. I forgot to mention that in my first post. I'll go fix it now.

As far as the drain pumps, the T-800 is an aerator pump as well. The stock drain pumps on mine are Rule 700gph aerator pumps so you're not going to gain much going to T-800 aerator pumps. I've never had any issues with my drain pumps - sure you just didn't have a kinked hose or something?

I'd definitely go with separate pumps and check valves or vented loops vs replacing the sprinkler valves with Irritrols. I think the only reason to go with Irritrols is if you don't have room for separate pumps which is why Jesse went that route.

Let's get our heads together on this and figure out the best way to go. Let's get Eric (stretch) in the loop as he is at the same stage we are. He and I talked ballast systems last night on the phone until my battery went dead (LOL!).

Al

Hillbilly
04-24-2010, 09:38 PM
Sorry to jump in, But all I have to do to stop my bags from filling underway is to drill holes in the scoop ! That sounds way too simple lol

tazz3069
04-25-2010, 01:44 AM
Hey Cab--
I kind of went through the same stuff you did. I had to cut off the end of the scuppers. I wanted to keep the screen side on so that debris wont enter. Now that I have worked all the kinks out of my system, it is perfect. Too bad it has taken SC this long to change the system. If you or anyone has questions, look at my pics, drop me a PM, respond to this post. I will be happy to help anyone out. I will give a list of stuff that I did.

1. Remove the crappy sprinkler valves
2. Drilled 2 more 1" holes in the hull
3. Added 3 1" scuppers
4. Added 3 1200gph Tsunami pumps
5. Added 3 Vented Loops
6. Re-Plumbed some of the system
7. Drank a few beers

Actually, before and after step #2, I had beers. Lots of beers. I used the wires that switched the solenoids to operate the new pumps. I did change the fuse to 5 amp. The connector that operated the one pump is now taped off and not in use.

Before I cut the scoops of the scuppers, I had the same problem. The bags would fill while under way. I was pissed beyond pissed. I think that my thread was call "Ballast Failure"

cab13367
04-25-2010, 03:32 AM
Tazz,

Thanks for the post. I think your set up is one of the best out there. I will definitely take you up on your offer for advice. A few questions come to mind:


When your bags were filling when underway, before you cut the back of the scupper off, did you have a vented loop installed and it was still filling by itself?


Could you do us a favor and time how long it takes for one pump to fill one bag with the boat at rest and tell us the capacity of the bag. Consider the bag full when water starts coming out of the drain fitting.

Thanks,

Al

tazz3069
04-25-2010, 09:31 AM
No problem

1. At first, I did the Mods to the sprinkler valves. I did not know about the vented loops yet. So while under way, the bags filled. Back to the drawing board. I was introduced to the vented loops by Jason from Wakemakers.com. I thought, what the heck I will give it a try. I tore out and immediately put those valves in the trash can. I then re plumbed and and install the vented loops. Took it out for a water test again. Bags again filled up while under way. I wanted to torch the thing. When I got home, I had to scratch my head really hard. I decided to cut the scoops off the scuppers. I went to Home Depot and purchased a dremel tool. Took the boat out again the following weekend for another water test. I had my finger, toes, hair, and anything I could cross in anticipation of the new system. Put the boat in the water, and open the valves. No water came in at all. Drove through the no wake zone and still no water. When I punched it , i had the wife and son keep on eye on the rear bags and I keep an eye on the center bag. To my surprise, no water at all. I check to see if the valves, that I opened, were open. Finally, after all that frustration and pounding of by foot, like a spoiled kid, the bugs are all out.

2. I did test the fill times on the bags. I really do not remember what the time was. I need to find an old post. I know that I posted this when Moomba had the older site up. Let me see if I can find it.

Here is the first post on the ballast failure.
http://moomba.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=7992

Here is the link for the final product
http://moomba.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=8985

I really hope this information helps. This is the best upgrade for people who want a faster system in the older boats.
Tazz

cab13367
04-25-2010, 01:09 PM
Thanks Tazz! Lots of good info in those posts. Did u upsize your fill hoses to 1" or did u leave the stock 3/4" hose in place?

tazz3069
04-25-2010, 10:27 PM
I left everything in 3/4" I could nopt get the connection off the bags. Si I have the 1" scuppers, fittings, ball joint, all the way to the pump. Then from there, I kept it 3/4"

Tazz

cab13367
04-27-2010, 03:37 PM
I left everything in 3/4" I could nopt get the connection off the bags. Si I have the 1" scuppers, fittings, ball joint, all the way to the pump. Then from there, I kept it 3/4"

Tazz

Tazz,

I think you would see a significant improvement in fill times if you went 1" from the pump to the bags. I was able to get the fittings off but it wasn't easy. I heated the base of the fitting with a hair dryer on high for a good 15 minutes, then folded up the bag in such a way that I could get a good grip on it with both hands right where the fitting connects to it, then had my wife use channel locks to grab and back the fitting off. I got two of them off this way. The other one wasn't glued so it came right off.

Of course, you would have to buy 1" hose, fittings, and vented loops.

Al

jasonwm
04-27-2010, 05:48 PM
Al im curious as to having both your 1200 on the same intake, are you planning to run a powered switch to both pumps separately?
Sharing one intake is a common way to save some money and reduce the number of holes that have to be drilled in the hull. As long as the intake is appropriately sized for the demand of the pumps this is not a problem.


IM not sure about the whole idea of just a check valve for the rear bags eighter.
Check valves often work for the rear bags, but ultimately a vented loop (along with a non-scooping intake fitting) is the only way to ensure water will not enter or leave the bags.


My understanding of why we need the Vented Loop is not only to help the bag not drain threw the fill line but to also allow it to not fill while under way. I know in my sprinkler valve they get stuck open a little and my rear bags fill while under way.
That is correct. We typically see rear bags draining (which can be blocked with a check valve) and front bags filling, but that is not a hard fast rule, and in reality what happens can vary depending on the model of boat, or even the day.


My plan as of right now is to run my T800s as drain pumps to stop the issue with bags not draining because the T800s are a much more efficient pump then the aerators.
Attwood's Tsunami series pumps are aerator pumps. The issue with the factory system isn't the pump, but rather the installation. Aerator pumps are not self-priming, so they need to be installed as close to the water source as possible. Contact me if you want more info on fixing your factory system.


Hold the presses, I've got some breaking news! Forgive me if you already know this but the stock fill pump, Rule model 207F, also known as the Rule 2000, is in fact a 1200 gph pump, NOT 2000 gph as the model number would imply. I've seen this on several places now. Below is a spec sheet that I pulled off an online retailer's site (see the first row in the third table and the corresponding pic to the right of it) as well as a link to another retailer that shows the 1200 gph flow rate.

Yeah, we uncovered this a few years ago in our testing of factory system.


Mike,

Yes, I would take the wiring from the sprinkler valves and connect them to the new pump. So when you hit fill, it turns that pump on.
Keep in mind that you'll need to upgrade the factory fuses to accommodate the increase in current the Tsunami pumps will draw.


The reason your rear bags filled while underway is because of the scupper on your intake. You'll have to drill holes on the scupper to ventilate it, cut it off, or replace it with a mushroom type intake. I forgot to mention that in my first post.
Cutting holes in the scoop portion is not sufficient to prevent passive filling. Either cut it off (you won't have to deal with the holes left behind), or remove it (you will have to deal with the holes, but can increase the size of the intake from 3/4" to 1" to feed more pumps.


I've never had any issues with my drain pumps - sure you just didn't have a kinked hose or something?
Issues with the system draining are fairly common. They're related to the factory location of the drain pumps for the rear bags as well as the fact that there is no vent connection on the factory bag.

The port bag is most commonly the issue, but it can effect both.


I'd definitely go with separate pumps and check valves or vented loops vs replacing the sprinkler valves with Irritrols. I think the only reason to go with Irritrols is if you don't have room for separate pumps which is why Jesse went that route.
For a lot of our customers this comes to down to cost vs. expectations. If a slight increase in fill speeds for not too much money will satisfy your expectations for the system then replacing the valves is a good route to go.

If you're ultimately trying to implement a system that is designed correctly from the start then go the discreet pump route (whether it's aerators with vented loops or flexible vane impeller pumps like the Jabsco or Johnson).


Let's get our heads together on this and figure out the best way to go. Let's get Eric (stretch) in the loop as he is at the same stage we are. He and I talked ballast systems last night on the phone until my battery went dead (LOL!).

We've probably upgraded close to 100 boats now, so let us know if you have any questions.


Sorry to jump in, But all I have to do to stop my bags from filling underway is to drill holes in the scoop ! That sounds way too simple lol
It depends on how your current system is setup, can you supply us with some additional information?


Tazz,

I think you would see a significant improvement in fill times if you went 1" from the pump to the bags. I was able to get the fittings off but it wasn't easy. I heated the base of the fitting with a hair dryer on high for a good 15 minutes, then folded up the bag in such a way that I could get a good grip on it with both hands right where the fitting connects to it, then had my wife use channel locks to grab and back the fitting off. I got two of them off this way. The other one wasn't glued so it came right off.

Of course, you would have to buy 1" hose, fittings, and vented loops.

With T800's there's no benefit to using 1" hose so stick with 3/4".

jasonwm
04-27-2010, 05:48 PM
Whoa, that was a really long reply, sorry! :)

tazz3069
04-27-2010, 08:54 PM
Tazz,

I think you would see a significant improvement in fill times if you went 1" from the pump to the bags. I was able to get the fittings off but it wasn't easy. I heated the base of the fitting with a hair dryer on high for a good 15 minutes, then folded up the bag in such a way that I could get a good grip on it with both hands right where the fitting connects to it, then had my wife use channel locks to grab and back the fitting off. I got two of them off this way. The other one wasn't glued so it came right off.

Of course, you would have to buy 1" hose, fittings, and vented loops.

Al

I thought about that. I feel pretty good now that I got rid of the sprinkler crap. If I do anything and that is if, I might put in a bow sack with its own pumps. Not sure if I want to do that. I hate at the end of the day, when I am dog tired, that I have to disconnect the hoses and try to lift the water filled bags over the side to empty the remaining water. I wish that these things will just fully empty. Why cant Moomba design a hull with built in tanks.

tazz3069
04-27-2010, 08:58 PM
Tazz,

I think you would see a significant improvement in fill times if you went 1" from the pump to the bags. I was able to get the fittings off but it wasn't easy. I heated the base of the fitting with a hair dryer on high for a good 15 minutes, then folded up the bag in such a way that I could get a good grip on it with both hands right where the fitting connects to it, then had my wife use channel locks to grab and back the fitting off. I got two of them off this way. The other one wasn't glued so it came right off.

Of course, you would have to buy 1" hose, fittings, and vented loops.

Al

I thought about that. I feel pretty good now that I got rid of the sprinkler crap. If I do anything and that is if, I might put in a bow sack with its own pumps. Not sure if I want to do that. I hate at the end of the day, when I am dog tired, that I have to disconnect the hoses and try to lift the water filled bags over the side to empty the remaining water. I wish that these things will just fully empty. Why cant Moomba design a hull with built in tanks.

Hey Jason (Wakemakers.com)
Do you have a better solution on a pump or a system or something that might just help with the emptying of the bags. I have even tried to empty my bags on the boat ramp. I figured since the bow is in the air and the stern is down hill, all the water will go towards the hose. Not the case at all. I still need to remove the hoses and lift it over the side to empty. Please help.

Tazz

jasonwm
04-27-2010, 09:02 PM
Hey Jason (Wakemakers.com)
Do you have a better solution on a pump or a system or something that might just help with the emptying of the bags. I have even tried to empty my bags on the boat ramp. I figured since the bow is in the air and the stern is down hill, all the water will go towards the hose. Not the case at all. I still need to remove the hoses and lift it over the side to empty. Please help.

Tazz

Unfortunately that's one of side effects of aerator pumps, because they're not self-priming they won't get all of the water out. Relocating the drain pump to be closer to the bag will help a lot, but you'll still have water in the bags.

Changing to flexible vane impeller pumps (Jabsco or Johnson) is the only solution.

Even boats with tanks that use aerator pumps (Malibu) will leave water in the tanks, you just don't know about it because the tank is rigid.

tazz3069
04-27-2010, 09:09 PM
I just spent a grip of money and time on this system. We will see what I can do this summer about changing the ballast system again. With the new Johnson pumps, I only need three. They are reversible right? How about the hose and fitting? What size can I use. I do have 1" scupper right now and after the Tsunami's, they change to 3/4". Will I need to keep the Vented loops? Can you give me a shopping list so I can put it in my boat budget for the year and I need the ok from the boss.
Tazz

cab13367
04-28-2010, 03:23 AM
Jason,

What is your opinion on mating a valve with NPT thread onto an intake with NPS thread? Okay to do? Bad idea? I am thinking that I want to keep the stock intake, just cut the scupper off, because I like the fact that there is only about and inch and a half of thread showing so I can keep the manifold very low. I have a feeling that your combination thread thru hull is going to be a bit tall.

Thanks,

Al

cab13367
05-05-2010, 04:14 PM
I thought I would update this post. This is what I have decided to do:

- Replace existing 3/4" intake strainer with 1" mushroom type intake
- Add 1" ball valve then a Tee.
- Install the stock Rule pump on one side of the Tee and run 1" hose from the rule to the surf side (port) rear bag.
- Install a second Tee on the other leg of the first Tee.
- Install two T-800's, one on each remaining leg of the Tee.
- Reuse the existing 3/4" line from the T-800's, one to the starboard rear bag, one to the nose bag.

This should be a fairly economical upgrade but should result in significantly improved fill times over stock, particularly with the 750# that we use when we surf.

I'm going to try a couple of things to prevent the self-draining and self-filling issues without using the vented loops as the vented loops impede flow significantly. Mandley and I ran some tests the last time we were at the lake. For this test, I disconnect the fill hose at the bag, removed the quick connect elbow, and ran the hose to a 6.5 gallon cooler which was sitting on the swim platform. I then timed how long it took to fill the cooler using the stock 1200 gph Rule pump and here are the results:

- With stock sprinkler valve in place - 65 seconds
- With vented loop (bypassed sprinkler manifold and sprinkler valve) - 55 seconds
- With neither - 40 seconds

The problem with the 3/4" vented loop is that the inside diameter is only 7/16" compared to 1/2" for the quick connect fittings. 1/16" doesn't sound like much but look at the pics below.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg276/cab13367/IMG_6482.jpg
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg276/cab13367/IMG_6485.jpg

cab13367
05-07-2010, 02:44 AM
I discovered that the $9.95 vented loops I used for this test have a dramatically smaller inside diameter than the ones that sell for around $28.

Please see page 2 of the thread below.

http://moomba.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=10985&page=2

stretch55
05-07-2010, 10:06 AM
I discovered that the $9.95 vented loops I used for this test have a dramatically smaller inside diameter than the ones that sell for around $28.

Please see page 2 of the thread below.

http://moomba.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=10985&page=2

I thought that the size diff was a little fishy...

brain_rinse
05-07-2010, 10:29 AM
Bummer about the loops! Sounds like you've got a good system planned though.