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jmvotto
05-08-2010, 08:22 AM
Anyone still use the bass knob from kicker or jl amps in conjunction with an eq with sub control?

Razzman
05-08-2010, 09:17 AM
Anyone still use the bass knob from kicker or jl amps in conjunction with an eq with sub control?

Well i don't have a WS 420 or an EQ but i don't see how it would hurt having it there. If you optimized your bass settings to your liking on the 420 in relation to a certain position with the bass knob (say mid way) then you could add or subtract bass boost and always be able to come back to optimized. I don't know, maybe it doesn't work that way. That help? :p Sorry!

cab13367
05-08-2010, 10:22 AM
Anyone still use the bass knob from kicker or jl amps in conjunction with an eq with sub control?

I don't know why u would as it would be redundant, wouldn't it? Having said that, I have the subwoofer level turned all the way up at the HU so that the sub amp is getting full input voltage and then I have the remote bass knob at the helm. I use the knob at the helm to attenuate the bass.

you da man
05-08-2010, 04:23 PM
I have 3 JL amps and the WS420 EQ and don't mess with the knobs on the amp...why would you need to once you have them set/tuned?

Razzman
05-08-2010, 05:17 PM
I have 3 JL amps and the WS420 EQ and don't mess with the knobs on the amp...why would you need to once you have them set/tuned?

He's referring to the remote bass adjustment knob that many amps have under the dash, Kicker ZX's being one.

EarmarkMarine
05-09-2010, 10:02 PM
Yes, a separate LC-1, JL or Kicker amplifier gain control makes sense for those who want a dedicated subwoofer level control.

The WetSounds two bass knobs are a paragraphic EQ adjusting the center frequency and EQ boost/cut with a fixed Q. And these function on the boat side rather than the tower side. This is not a true level control and should not be used as one.

So gaining the sub amp hot and using the independent level control for attenuation will allow you to mix more bass with the tower speakers without raising the in-boat speaker level as much.

I totally agree with how WetSounds has engineered their EQ and wouldn't use an external control. But I can see how it would be useful for others.

David
Earmark Marine

jmvotto
05-09-2010, 11:35 PM
Yes, a separate LC-1, JL or Kicker amplifier gain control makes sense for those who want a dedicated subwoofer level control.

The WetSounds two bass knobs are a paragraphic EQ adjusting the center frequency and EQ boost/cut with a fixed Q. And these function on the boat side rather than the tower side. This is not a true level control and should not be used as one.

So gaining the sub amp hot and using the independent level control for attenuation will allow you to mix more bass with the tower speakers without raising the in-boat speaker level as much.

I totally agree with how WetSounds has engineered their EQ and wouldn't use an external control. But I can see how it would be useful for others.

David
Earmark Marine

David, thanks for the input and my technical knowledge is limited here, but i am confused by paragragh two and four above.

The JL amp has a variable bass boost of 12 db, the ws420 has a sub bass boost of i think of 12 db and the frequency range of 30 to 300hz.

will the JL counter act the ws, make it distort, or double the db gain??

As always look for ward to your expert insite.

EarmarkMarine
05-10-2010, 03:57 PM
jmvotto,

I could have interpreted this wrong but I thought the thread was about level controls.

I was only explaining that the WetSounds has a bass EQ but not a true bass level control. I would not use the amplifier's bass boost/EQ circuit since the WetSounds has a more comprehensive control (two variables versus one) and the WS420 is positioned more conveniently. Using both is trouble.

Bass EQs, particularly in an open boat, should be used in moderation. Consider this: A 12 dB boost is a 1 to 16 power ratio at a frequency where you don't have as much leverage as you do in a vehicle. While you may inject 12 dB (for examply only), its unlikely you'll get a 12dB commensurate increase in acoustic output because you're fighting some open-air inefficiences. And even though the boost is over a very narrow bandwidth, it can quickly sap the dynamics out of your overall system and certainly introduce premature distortion at higher volumes, not to mention cause early mechanical fatigue for your subwoofer.

So its an awesome fine-tuning feature as long as you don't try and use an EQ as an overall level controller. I know this is extra information but its a widely misunderstood area that I thought deserves a little extra dialogue.

David
Earmark Marine

jmvotto
05-10-2010, 04:03 PM
David, I have that jl bass knob mounted in the dash already (old system pre eq), I guess i could leave it as zero and use the eq or unhook it at the amp and find another use for the hole in my dash.:(

Thanks,

Joe

Brianinpdx
05-11-2010, 12:35 AM
WOW -this is a rather confusing thread. I had to read thru it 2x before responding. And after I did, my initial impression is you guys are way over thinking this. Since David gave the technical run down, let me explain in another way.

First the original Q: remote bass controllers are used by many in the marine world. Especially by guys that have high performance sub setups. The reason is simple. Blend the sub output to match your cabin setup levels. Or in some cases, when fun bass is needed... juice the hell outta it!. For those of us running bass amplifiers that dont have a remote bass controller, a simple PK LC1 does the trick for less than 20 bucks.

first observation: This is very different than "Bass EQ" as used by the op.

A bass EQ would in my book refer to something like the W420 which is really a multi function device.

- PA
- line driver
- EQ
- Level controller

Depending on your needs this can be a great device, or for most something to fiddle with (which I'm not a fan of). It does offer great zone control and EQ abilities. It is my understanding that it doesnt allow for remote subwoofer level control (david correct me if I'm wrong). For this reason, I'd definately run a level controller as asked by the OP.

bottom line, remote contollers are great. the WS420 is great. Just ask yourself what solution you really need, and buy accordingly.

-Brian
Exile Audio

jmvotto
05-11-2010, 12:43 AM
Brian, Thanks for the input. I already own both, the JL 6600 is already installed with the remote knob in the dash. the ws 420 is about to get installed. My simple question is which one do i use to control the sub, not the level but the frequency and db, or use both.

Brianinpdx
05-11-2010, 12:57 AM
JMV -

If you want to EQ the sub... answer = 420 knob.

If you want the sub level controlled with the cabin level control...
answer = 420 knob.

If you want the sub level tied to independent
answer = the JL remote

simple enough? ;)

Honestly, I'd start with the 420 controlling it and see if your happy there. I suspect you will be.

-Brian

Razzman
05-11-2010, 11:53 AM
Great explanation Brian, breaks it down to the "Audio for Dummies" category! :p

cab13367
05-11-2010, 12:55 PM
Joe,

Let me give this a shot. The answer to your question is yes, you should use the amp's remote bass knob to control the volume of your sub. As David points out, the WS EQ does not have this feature.

Also, my understanding is that you are going to use channels 5&6 on your M6600 to power the sub, correct? If so, you have a bass boost on/off switch rather than a knob. Flipping it to "on" gives you a 6db boost centered at 48 hz (I have the same amp so I looked it up in the manual). However, the WS has two knobs to control bass boost - one to set the amount of boost and the other to set the frequency at which the boost will be centered. So as David suggests, I would turn bass boost to off at your amp and instead, control it at the WS. Once you have it set, leave it alone and then control the sub volume using the remote knob.

Hope that helps.

Al

EarmarkMarine
05-11-2010, 02:37 PM
jmvotto,

Consider doing this. Eliminate the JL amplifier Bass EQ control since there is no point in the redundancy. Add an LC-1 by PAC in line after the sub outputs of your WS420. Now you'll have the WS420 equalizer function plus a true sub level control (two very different functions). And, the hole in your dash is filled with something purposeful now.

BTW, many amplifiers now have a pure level control rather than a bass EQ knob. For example some of the JL Audio HD and XD amplifiers have this. And, I think I recall Phil writing that one or more of the Kicker amplifiers do as well. But this does not apply to the G6600's current control.

David
Earmark Marine

cab13367
05-11-2010, 03:47 PM
Add an LC-1 by PAC in line after the sub outputs of your WS420.

David,

How is this any different or better than just using the remote bass knob that the amplifier is equipped with and Joe already has in place? Doesn't it do the same thing?

Thanks,

Al

Razzman
05-11-2010, 03:57 PM
If i'm correct most remote bass knobs do the same as boosting bass at the head unit, example 0db, 6db, 12db, etc (or similar) and turning the knob into the negative (-) gives the illusion of less volume.

A PAC LC-1 is a potentiometer with a variable resistor, the amount of current flowing through can be varied by adjusting the knob. So turning the knob full + = full current = full volume, whereas full - = no current = no volume. It is the exact same thing as your sliding/knob/dimmer light switch at home.

jmvotto
05-11-2010, 04:18 PM
Guys love all the advice i guess i am going to have to play with iall the options to see which i prefer. But i thought the JL knob and one of the ws sub knobs did exactly the same thing.

since the RCA's go to the ws first and the amps second i assume the amps should have more variance, tolerance with regards to frequency settings with tuning otherwise they will limit the wetsounds.

david, i do have the Pac lc1 and was saving it to split the in boat signal to the bow, so i can dial those back when the kids are up front:D

cab13367
05-11-2010, 04:19 PM
If i'm correct most remote bass knobs do the same as boosting bass at the head unit, example 0db, 6db, 12db, etc (or similar) and turning the knob into the negative (-) gives the illusion of less volume.

A PAC LC-1 is a potentiometer with a variable resistor, the amount of current flowing through can be varied by adjusting the knob. So turning the knob full + = full current = full volume, whereas full - = no current = no volume. It is the exact same thing as your sliding/knob/dimmer light switch at home.

Razz,

You are absolutely right – I stand correctly. I read the manual again and it says, “with the remote boost knob connected, the boost is no longer limited to 0 or +6 dB, allowing a variable range of 0 to + 12 dB of boost to be selected.” So yes, on the JL M6600, it is a remote bass boost knob.

However, on the Kicker ZX700.5 which is what you and I have and running my sub of the 5th channel, the manual describes the remote bass knob as a “remote bass level control” and gives you “the ability to control the level of the subwoofer channel’s output remotely”. So I believe it functions the same as the PAC LC-1?

Thanks for setting me straight.

Al

cab13367
05-11-2010, 04:21 PM
But i thought the JL knob and one of the ws sub knobs did exactly the same thing.


Joe,

This statement is correct. Please see my post above.

Thanks,

Al

Razzman
05-11-2010, 04:27 PM
However, on the Kicker ZX700.5 which is what you and I have and running my sub of the 5th channel, the manual describes the remote bass knob as a “remote bass level control” and gives you “the ability to control the level of the subwoofer channel’s output remotely”. So I believe it functions the same as the PAC LC-1?

Mine states in the specs; "Bass Boost Remote Control: 0 - 18dB at 40Hz"

cab13367
05-11-2010, 05:35 PM
Mine states in the specs; "Bass Boost Remote Control: 0 - 18dB at 40Hz"

Mine says "Bass Boost: Variable 0 - 18dB Bass Boost at 40Hz"

It then says, "Remote Bass (Level Control) When using the remote bass level control you have the ability to control the level of the Subwoofer Channel's output remotely".

Remember that mine is the 08 model and I think yours is the 06 model so it might be a difference between our model year amps.

This would be a good time for Phil to chime in :o)

Al

EarmarkMarine
05-11-2010, 05:48 PM
Okay, with certainty the JL Audio G6600 or M6600 bass knob is equalization boost or cut at a fixed frequency and narrow bandwidth. In JM's scenario this is redundant, less useful than the EQ and should not be used at all.

A PAC LC-1 would function as a linear (treats all frequencies equally) bass level control. So the entire bass bandwidth below the amplifier's crossover point is impacted. If you want to re-engineer a particular song or change the bass emphasis to suit the music or company then you will find the true level control to be far more responsive and create far less distortion per the amount of change.

Its not a car cabin. Remember that trying to boost 48 Hz in an open environment is just about as effective as trying to air condition the great outdoors. The distortion and tonal abberations that accompany that kind of boost simply are not worth it to my ears. So easy does it on the "bass boost." The WS-420 bass EQ is better suited to this function.

I'm not trying to make it complex... Only trying to provide some concise info. I'd rather everyone gets a grasp as to the 'whys' of how one method or set-up is significantly different and is even more efficient in its operation.

Hope everyone is on the same page.

David
Earmark Marine

jmvotto
05-11-2010, 11:33 PM
Its all clear as mud..... JK. finally got it, lose the jl knob and use the ws for sub and intergrate the pac lc into the previous JL dash hole...

LOL i just wrote Dash Hole.

Oops i was posed to preface PWI:p

jmvotto
07-09-2010, 08:05 PM
Okay, with certainty the JL Audio G6600 or M6600 bass knob is equalization boost or cut at a fixed frequency and narrow bandwidth. In JM's scenario this is redundant, less useful than the EQ and should not be used at all.


David
Earmark Marine


David, tried the sub controls on the ws420 all week and they are less effective than the jl bass knob that i switched over to. :confused: Not sure why i get louder and better bass control from the knob vs the high priced EQ.

EarmarkMarine
07-12-2010, 11:44 AM
JM,
Because the Wetsounds has a paragraghic sub EQ (allows you to change both the amplitude and center frequency) it will closely emulate whatever the JL amp circuit is doing if you are comfortable with this concept. The JL amp frequency is fixed so it cannot duplicate the options available on the EQ. There is probably a difference in the gain of the two circuits. Personally, my ear couldn't tolerate that boost on a non-freeair sub used in a freeair application, but go with what sounds best to you.

David
Earmark Marine

jmvotto
07-12-2010, 12:01 PM
david, so would i set the sub channel to full range, therefore the eq will have better response and only feed the amp the range of the sub control. or set it to lp with the highest possible frequency..

Thx as always to you insights.

EarmarkMarine
07-12-2010, 12:38 PM
JM,
Your amplifier still has to be run lowpass on the channels that drive the sub but I would defeat the bass boost feature on the amp in favor of the EQ provision. Just an opinion here and opinions will vary as perceptions are very subjective. For example, people spend thousands on acoustic treatments such as corner traps to eliminate the false gain in smaller rooms that others seem to covet.

David
Earmark Marine

jmvotto
07-12-2010, 02:04 PM
thanks again David, i will give it a try this weekend and see how it turns out.

philwsailz
07-12-2010, 04:55 PM
Mine says "Bass Boost: Variable 0 - 18dB Bass Boost at 40Hz"

It then says, "Remote Bass (Level Control) When using the remote bass level control you have the ability to control the level of the Subwoofer Channel's output remotely".

Remember that mine is the 08 model and I think yours is the 06 model so it might be a difference between our model year amps.

This would be a good time for Phil to chime in :o)

Al

Guys-

The Kicker amps have two different controls.....

BASS BOOST - this knob is ONLY on the face of the amp and controls EQUALIZATION specifically by allowing an adjustable bump in frequency response centered at 40 Hz. This knob is to be used sparingly, as too much BASS BOOST points to system inefficiencies for your musical tastes. It does not raise or lower the sub's output, it only changes the EQ curve by boosting a narrow band of frequencies centered at 40 Hz.

REMOTE BASS LEVEL - This feature is only available on the remote bass knob which came standard on a few amp models back in the day and is now optional for all mono amps and a few of the other amps. This knob is a LEVEL CONTROLLER only.
The remote bass knob literally turns the subwoofer's amplifier up and down, to match the music, or as Brian states, for "fun bass."

The function of the two controls is completely different, despite what could be considered misleading nomenclature.

Hope that is clear as mud... the control on the amp is EQ and the control on the RJ45 umbilical cord is level control....

Phil
Kicker