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csm
06-13-2010, 11:43 PM
I replaced my orbit valves with the Irritrol 700s, but I can't get them to work. The only way I can get them to fill is to manually open the valve. When it's in the closed position, nothing flows. I pulled the solenoid off and watched it as I flipped the ballast switch, and they seem to be working properly.

I didn't replace the solenoids when I swapped the valves. I thought I read that they were compatible with our current soleniods. Is it possible that a solenoid can still appear to work, but possibly isn't pulling enough current? Anything else I should check?

I've worked through problems with valves in the past, but I've always been able to track down the issue. I'm stuck on this one...

kaneboats
06-13-2010, 11:45 PM
Please help if you have the Irritrol valves. I now have two of the Orbit ones that are letting the bags fill even with the switch in the right spot. I was thinking of switching to the Irritrol ones but would like to find out what the deal is.

cab13367
06-14-2010, 03:20 AM
csm,

I encoutered the same exact thing except that I used the solenoid that came with my 3/4" Irritrol 700. Mine will only open for a few seconds then close if the manual switch is in the "OFF" position. With the switch in the "ON" position, it lets water flow thru.

I think the problem lies in the fact that the solenoids are 24V whereas our boat's electrical system is 12V. I don't think there's enough current to keep them open.

I am only using one of them, on the fill line to my front bag. Since I'ce upgraded to three fill pumps, the Irritrol is basically acting like a check valve (I have the switch in the "ON" position) which is fine for my set up.

IPV.com supposedly sells 12V solenoids that will work with the Irritrol 700 series valves. You might give them a call.

Al

VA LSV
06-14-2010, 12:23 PM
Switched my Orbits to these.
http://www.sprinklerwarehouse.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=IR%2D700B%2D75&Show=ExtInfo
Orbit solenoids worked fine on 2 Irritrol valves. The 1 that didn't work was missing the spring so I swapped out all the solenoids to Irritrol. The manual switch unscrews the solenoid so the valve is on all the time. I removed the manual operator since I didn't see where I would have a need for it and just screwed the solenoids into the valve. All work just fine. Both Orbit & Irritrol solenoids are 24 VAC and will work fine on 12 VDC.

cab13367
06-14-2010, 03:42 PM
Switched my Orbits to these.
http://www.sprinklerwarehouse.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=IR%2D700B%2D75&Show=ExtInfo
Orbit solenoids worked fine on 2 Irritrol valves. The 1 that didn't work was missing the spring so I swapped out all the solenoids to Irritrol. The manual switch unscrews the solenoid so the valve is on all the time. I removed the manual operator since I didn't see where I would have a need for it and just screwed the solenoids into the valve. All work just fine. Both Orbit & Irritrol solenoids are 24 VAC and will work fine on 12 VDC.

va lsv,

I have that exact valve, wired the solenoid to the pump, and it will not stay open. I was told the same thing, that the solenoids are 24 VAC and will work fine on 12 VDC. I think the manual lever does more than just partially unscrew the solenoid. If you look closely, it's got an orifice that lines up with an orifice on the valve if in the "OFF" position, and does not line up with it in the "ON" position. I think that somehow, the lining up of the orifices is what determines if it is closed or open. Sorry if this is all wrong as I don't understand how the valve works or what the solenoid actually does. I should unscrew it and take a look at what happens when I turn the switch on.

But for my application, it is serving the purpose fine so I really have no need to investigate further.

Thanks,

Al

csm
06-14-2010, 04:50 PM
So is it possible for a solenoid to lose some of it's power to where it wouldn't fully open the valve, but still look like it's working when it's unhooked from the valve? When I hit the ballast switch, the solenoid arm (or whatever it's called) sucks up like it should, but I'm wondering if it can slowly start to go bad?

jeilers1
06-14-2010, 05:01 PM
Try testing with an ohm meter vs the ones that work. They can get weak

JesseC
06-14-2010, 06:55 PM
I have run both the 3/4" Irrotrols and the 1" with the 24v solenoids and they operate flawlessly. I was out this weekend and was suprised and how well they worked. No water seeped past them at any speed and they all opened and stayed open as long as I was running the fill pump. The 24v AC is a misprint on their website. When you look at the solenoids they are clearly marked 24v DC. Which is the SAME EXACT solenoids that skiers choice put in the original sprinkler valve setups.

JesseC
06-14-2010, 06:56 PM
Which valve did you end up installing?

csm
06-15-2010, 01:06 AM
Hopefully the solenoid is the issue. They are the originals, so maybe they've gotten weaker.

I will say that when I manually open the valve, the fill time is a HUGE difference over using the Orbits. I don't have any exact timings, but it has to have cut it in half. Now if I can just get it to be automated....

you da man
06-15-2010, 01:20 AM
I have the same Irritrol 700 3/4" 24v. As with Jesse, mine have worked flawlessly and don't let a drop of water through if I don't want it to. My sacs are completely dry inside when I take them out after just a relaxing cruise around the lake without filling them.

cab13367
06-15-2010, 02:29 AM
I have the same Irritrol 700 3/4" 24v. As with Jesse, mine have worked flawlessly and don't let a drop of water through if I don't want it to. My sacs are completely dry inside when I take them out after just a relaxing cruise around the lake without filling them.

The issue is not about letting water thru when we don't want it to, it's that they won't let water thru when we do want them to!

VA LSV
06-15-2010, 07:19 AM
Sprinkler solenoids are 24 VAC, same as a door bell or thermostat. They retract when energized to open a pilot line that uses water pressure to open the valve.

http://www.irritrol.com/pdf/sellsheet_700.pdf
http://www.irritrol.com/valves/valve_manuals/inst_gd_700.pdf
http://www.irritrol.com/pdf/parts_valves_700.pdf

kaneboats
06-15-2010, 10:21 AM
If that's correct, then you actually need pressure to open the valve?? Perhaps having the boat moving when they are first turned on will help. I want to go look for some of these today but only if they work. Are you guys moving when you start filling?

JesseC
06-15-2010, 10:22 AM
Sprinkler solenoids are 24 VAC, same as a door bell or thermostat. They retract when energized to open a pilot line that uses water pressure to open the valve.

http://www.irritrol.com/pdf/sellsheet_700.pdf
http://www.irritrol.com/valves/valve_manuals/inst_gd_700.pdf
http://www.irritrol.com/pdf/parts_valves_700.pdf

I am fairly sure these are DC. If they were AC they would not work at all. I will take a pic of the specs on the side of one of the solenoids tonight. It is true that the system control that you plugh into the wall is an AC unit, but it will convert it to DC when sent out to the system. I will confirm the solenoids tonight though.

csm
06-15-2010, 12:00 PM
If that's correct, then you actually need pressure to open the valve?? Perhaps having the boat moving when they are first turned on will help. I want to go look for some of these today but only if they work. Are you guys moving when you start filling?

Yep - I always get on plane and flip the switches on and off multiple times. I always have had to do that with the Orbits. It hasn't helped w/ the Irritrols. I'm going to mess around with the solenoids later this week, because that's the only thing it can be, I would think.

sandm
06-15-2010, 12:24 PM
if they are like a doorbell, they are dc. that's why you have to have the transformer in your garage, typically on a garage wall that shares an interior wall. 120vac goes to the transformer and it converts it to 24vdc for the doorbell motor to work.

JesseC
06-15-2010, 02:07 PM
Check to make sure that you have the valves installed in the proper direction!!! Hopefully the arrow is pointing away from your manifold. As to those On/Off levers, the first thing I did was unscrew the solenoids and throw those levers away. I kept getting stuff hung on them and they were always in the way. Try removing the levers and then just tighten down the solenoid with a really snug final turn. If the solenoid is not seated all the way they will not function properly.

csm
06-15-2010, 04:05 PM
Check to make sure that you have the valves installed in the proper direction!!! Hopefully the arrow is pointing away from your manifold. As to those On/Off levers, the first thing I did was unscrew the solenoids and throw those levers away. I kept getting stuff hung on them and they were always in the way. Try removing the levers and then just tighten down the solenoid with a really snug final turn. If the solenoid is not seated all the way they will not function properly.

The valve is definitely pointing the right way. I double checked that, and I wouldn't admit it otherwise.

I will try removing the lever. I hate that thing. I've dropped it in my bilge about 4 times. I've thought that lever could mess with the solenoid connection.

JesseC
06-15-2010, 04:53 PM
The valve is definitely pointing the right way. I double checked that, and I wouldn't admit it otherwise.

Hahahahahah!!!! I hated to state the obvious, but you never know!!! I would not admit it either. I would probably come up with a story of garbage being stuck in the valve or something. Definately chunk those On/Off arms, they are useless.

VA LSV
06-16-2010, 09:22 AM
Try removing the solenoids from the valves and turning on the fill switches. You should see the plungers retract. If not, then you have an electrical problem upstream, possibly fuse or relay.

The Rule pump supplies the pressure. Getting on plane provides the prime to the Rule pump.

Solenoids are def rated 24 VAC. Doorbells are ac. The transformer steps the voltage down from 120 to 24, but it's still ac.

csm
06-16-2010, 12:18 PM
Try removing the solenoids from the valves and turning on the fill switches. You should see the plungers retract. If not, then you have an electrical problem upstream, possibly fuse or relay.

The Rule pump supplies the pressure. Getting on plane provides the prime to the Rule pump.

Solenoids are def rated 24 VAC. Doorbells are ac. The transformer steps the voltage down from 120 to 24, but it's still ac.

The plungers do retract when removed from the valve, so I know they work somewhat, just not sure if they've lost a little juice.

Last night, I removed the manual lever like Jesse suggested, and I noticed that I couldn't get the solenoid perfectly seated.. Anytime I would try to tighten it, it would release and I'd have to re-tighten... So now I'm thinking there's a problem with the threads on the solenoid or something. I had a spare solenoid sitting around, and was able to get it seated correctly, so I'm guessing that's probably my issue. Won't be able to tell for sure until I get out on the water.

JesseC
06-16-2010, 12:40 PM
What size valve are you using. A 3/4" or a 1"?

csm
06-16-2010, 02:32 PM
What size valve are you using. A 3/4" or a 1"?

I'm using a 3/4" valve.

kaneboats
06-17-2010, 02:47 AM
I picked one up tonight to do my own experiments. I have two malfunctioning Orbit ones now. They are letting water in all the time. I'd like to put the Irritrol one on my only 750 on the surf side and have the Orbits handle the other two bags, assuming I can fix one of them. I'll try it out this w/e and post my findings.

JesseC
06-17-2010, 10:52 AM
I picked one up tonight to do my own experiments. I have two malfunctioning Orbit ones now. They are letting water in all the time. I'd like to put the Irritrol one on my only 750 on the surf side and have the Orbits handle the other two bags, assuming I can fix one of them. I'll try it out this w/e and post my findings.

Just remember to remove and chunk the levers. I have been using these valves for over three years now and have had no issues. If you are going to use sprinkler valve systems, these are definately the way to go!! I ran the 3 in 3/4" with a Rule 2000gph for a long time before switching to my new setup of 3 in 1" and 1 in 3/4" with the Rule 3800.

kaneboats
06-17-2010, 01:31 PM
I almost never use the starboard side bag so I'll leave that one alone. The center fills so quickly I'm fine with the Orbit one for that bag. I really wanted to upgrade the one on the surf bag on the port side. I have a dual inlet manifold and two Rule 2000 pumps so I know I can get more water to it if the valve would just let it through. I'll take your advice on the levers.

cab13367
06-17-2010, 03:51 PM
Just remember to remove and chunk the levers. I have been using these valves for over three years now and have had no issues. If you are going to use sprinkler valve systems, these are definately the way to go!! I ran the 3 in 3/4" with a Rule 2000gph for a long time before switching to my new setup of 3 in 1" and 1 in 3/4" with the Rule 3800.

Jessie,

Why chuck the levers? Doesn't it take away the ability to manually open the valve if the solenoid goes bad while on the water? Is there a downside to leaving it on?

Thanks,

Al

csm
06-17-2010, 03:58 PM
Jessie,

Why chuck the levers? Doesn't it take away the ability to manually open the valve if the solenoid goes bad while on the water? Is there a downside to leaving it on?

Thanks,

Al

All the levers do is make it easier to turn. You should still be able to turn it to open w/o the lever, it would just be a little more work.

csm
06-17-2010, 04:02 PM
I almost never use the starboard side bag so I'll leave that one alone. The center fills so quickly I'm fine with the Orbit one for that bag. I really wanted to upgrade the one on the surf bag on the port side. I have a dual inlet manifold and two Rule 2000 pumps so I know I can get more water to it if the valve would just let it through. I'll take your advice on the levers.

I have the same setup as you. I only upgraded my surf bag. The other bags fill up fine. I only have a 250# bag on the other side for wakeboarding, and the center ballast fills pretty quick...

So, instead of my usual routine of starting something that I've never worked on w/o knowing what I'll need, and then having to stop in the middle of the project to go to the hardware store, what's the process of replacing a solenoid?

I've never done this before. I know that the wiring goes into a plastic harness, but what's it take to remove the wires from the harness, and insert the new ones? Do I need to disconnect the battery or anything while replacing solenoids?

JesseC
06-17-2010, 05:39 PM
All the levers do is make it easier to turn. You should still be able to turn it to open w/o the lever, it would just be a little more work.

Exactly! if the lever is not in the right position you can not tighten the white solenoid holder all the way down. It is easire if they are just gone. It makes turning the white collar a little harder for a manual override. Leaving them on there should not be a problem, I just found them annoying.

JesseC
06-17-2010, 05:43 PM
I have the same setup as you. I only upgraded my surf bag. The other bags fill up fine. I only have a 250# bag on the other side for wakeboarding, and the center ballast fills pretty quick...

So, instead of my usual routine of starting something that I've never worked on w/o knowing what I'll need, and then having to stop in the middle of the project to go to the hardware store, what's the process of replacing a solenoid?

I've never done this before. I know that the wiring goes into a plastic harness, but what's it take to remove the wires from the harness, and insert the new ones? Do I need to disconnect the battery or anything while replacing solenoids?

On mine the solenoid wires went into a loom and then to god knows where. I just cut them leaving enough lenght to feel comfortable with and then added bullet connectors to both the solenoid and the pre-existing wire. Then threaded the solenoid onto the valve and connected the bullet connectors. I keep an extra solenoid with bullet connectors in the storage area. So if one fails out on the lake (which has never happened) I just unhook the bullet conectors unthread the solenoid, thread in the new one and the re-hook the bullet connectors back up. Crack open a beer and then watch the bag fill up. Done!!

You do not need to disconnect the battery, if the fill pump is not running then there is no current at the solenoid. Just make sure everything ballast wise is off.

kaneboats
06-18-2010, 02:18 AM
Crack open a beer and then watch the bag fill up. Done!!

That part of the plan I definitely get!

csm
06-19-2010, 07:10 PM
Probably a dumb question, but wanna make sure I'm set before getting out on the water... My irritrol solenoid has a plastic white piece around the plunger. I'm assuming this is to hold the plunger in so it doesn't accidentally fall out. Do I need to remove this piece? The plunger doesn't stick nearly as far out with this piece on as the orbit solenoid, so I'm just not sure if the irritrol doesn't need that much range with their plunger, or if it's strictly there to be removed once it's in use....

JesseC
06-20-2010, 01:18 AM
Probably a dumb question, but wanna make sure I'm set before getting out on the water... My irritrol solenoid has a plastic white piece around the plunger. I'm assuming this is to hold the plunger in so it doesn't accidentally fall out. Do I need to remove this piece? The plunger doesn't stick nearly as far out with this piece on as the orbit solenoid, so I'm just not sure if the irritrol doesn't need that much range with their plunger, or if it's strictly there to be removed once it's in use....

Do not make any modifications to the solenoid. I think you are talking about the ratainer ring at the bottom of the solenoid. I am not sure what would happen if you remove it, but I would leave it alone. It may let the plungher get too far away from the magnet and cause it not to work properly.

csm
06-24-2010, 03:35 PM
Finally got the boat out last night, and the new solenoid did the trick! Definitely an upgrade using the irritrol over the orbits. Now I'm gonna have a hard time not convincing myself to swap out my other two valves.

Thanks Jesse and everyone else for the help.

JesseC
06-24-2010, 03:55 PM
Finally got the boat out last night, and the new solenoid did the trick! Definitely an upgrade using the irritrol over the orbits. Now I'm gonna have a hard time not convincing myself to swap out my other two valves.

Thanks Jesse and everyone else for the help.

Not a problem. I found those valves about three years ago and loved them. It took a long time for everybody else to give them a try. I am running the 1" models now with the RULE 3800 and wow is it fast!!!! My solenoids that were existing must have been different than the newer ones. So from now on, I would suggest that everyone change the solenoids and the valves, just in case. Especially since the solenoids come with the valves.

FYI, I did do a test with the Rule 2000GPH and the 1" valves and the difference was not noticeable from using the 3/4" ones. They did however make a difference with the 3800 GPH pump.

csm
06-24-2010, 04:19 PM
Not a problem. I found those valves about three years ago and loved them. It took a long time for everybody else to give them a try. I am running the 1" models now with the RULE 3800 and wow is it fast!!!! My solenoids that were existing must have been different than the newer ones. So from now on, I would suggest that everyone change the solenoids and the valves, just in case. Especially since the solenoids come with the valves.

FYI, I did do a test with the Rule 2000GPH and the 1" valves and the difference was not noticeable from using the 3/4" ones. They did however make a difference with the 3800 GPH pump.

Do they seem more durable than the Orbits? Seems like the Orbits had to be replaced every so often.

JesseC
06-24-2010, 04:21 PM
I ran the 3/4" onse for almost three seasons and never once had an issue. I am still using one of them for my front bag.

kaneboats
06-25-2010, 01:40 PM
I picked up on of the 3/4" ones a week ago but haven't put it on the surf line yet. I now have 2 malfunctioning Orbit valves. I hope I can get one good one out of the two. I don't need the Irritrol one for my front bag as it will still fill faster than the surf bag even with the Orbit valve.