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cab13367
06-17-2010, 02:37 AM
So I think I want to install a ProSport 20 battery charger which is a dual bank 20 amp charger. However, I was thinking that since it's not that much more for the 20 Plus, which is a three bank charger, that I should just get that instead even though I only have two batteries. This way, if I decide to add a third battery in the future, I won't have to upgrade the charger.

So, my question is, does anyone know for sure if the 20 Plus will work with just two batteries? I tried calling ProMariner but all I get is a recording.

Thx.

Al

viking
06-17-2010, 12:31 PM
hey Al,
why worry about a 2 bank charger when you have your relay? Can't you just hook up a charger to one of your batts and it will charge both?

What is the benefit to charging each of the batts seperately? Maybe there's a thread on the issue but I had a guy local try and tell me that there really is no need to charge the batts seperately. Just hook up a charging source to one and not worry about it?

EarmarkMarine
06-17-2010, 01:40 PM
Al,
Even if you begin with identical batteries, you're not using your two batteries equally, you're not putting them into storage with an equal charge, they're not aging equally and as a result they have different impedances.
So for maximum longevity use a dual-bank charger. This way each battery is
profiled and conditioned independently.
If two batteries are of equal age, size and chemistry and are permanently in parallel on the same bank then this only requires a single charger bank.

David
Earmark Marine

cab13367
06-17-2010, 02:41 PM
hey Al,
why worry about a 2 bank charger when you have your relay? Can't you just hook up a charger to one of your batts and it will charge both?

What is the benefit to charging each of the batts seperately? Maybe there's a thread on the issue but I had a guy local try and tell me that there really is no need to charge the batts seperately. Just hook up a charging source to one and not worry about it?

vikingm

There is a post on this. See below and go to pg 4 of the post.

http://moomba.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=9355&page=4

you da man
06-18-2010, 01:21 AM
I have 3 Dekas in my boat and only use a ProMariner20 dual bank as well. This is with the advice of David of Earmark Marine and of course they did the install of my system. My system only takes a few hours to charge the batteries even after a full day on the lake.

newty
06-19-2010, 11:21 PM
I went with the Prosport 12 2 bank, with 3 agm's though it takes a little longer to charge, I'm really happy with the performance.

cab13367
11-10-2010, 04:08 PM
So this winter, I am going to add a second stereo battery to my system for a total of three batteries (one starting, two for the stereo). I have the Prosport 20 Gen 2 dual bank charger and want to confirm the correct way to wire the batteries and the charger. So I think I should connect the two stereo batteries together, that is, wire the pos terminals together and wire the neg terminals together. Then I connect one pair of charger leads to one of the batteries and since they are wired together, they act like one battery.

And I can wire the amps to either battery since they are connected together.

Is this all correct?

FYI, the battery in my Durango died last night and it just so happens that it takes a Group 27 so I took my existing Group 27 battery out of the boat and installed it in the Durango. So I am open to suggestions as to what two batteries I should get. I can get two Group 27 115 amp hour batteries at costco for $69 each. Is there any reason to spend more? FYI, I am running three amps now for a total of 2,050W RMS and from what I have read, I should be able to get several hours of play time with two Group 27's especially since I don't run them at full volume for that long when we are parked.

Thanks,

Al

lsvboombox
11-10-2010, 05:06 PM
So I think I want to install a ProSport 20 battery charger which is a dual bank 20 amp charger. However, I was thinking that since it's not that much more for the 20 Plus, which is a three bank charger, that I should just get that instead even though I only have two batteries. This way, if I decide to add a third battery in the future, I won't have to upgrade the charger.

So, my question is, does anyone know for sure if the 20 Plus will work with just two batteries? I tried calling ProMariner but all I get is a recording.

Thx.

Al

yes you can tape of the third lead...

I would look into Dual Pro chargers(they have a sportmans series = Cheaper) I use them in my bass boat... very popular amongst bass boats who have 3 and 4 battery systems. Very nice product and excellent customer service....

also the reviews on the Promariner Prosports are horrible......
here is just a sample of bad reviews...
http://www.basspro.com/ProMariner®-Prosport-Series-OnBoard-Marine-Battery-Chargers/product/97825/-1464912

you da man
11-10-2010, 05:16 PM
Al, I run two group 31 Deka batteries on the stereo with a couple less amp hour rating than the group 27 you listed. You'll have plenty of play time. Provided you maintain them properly which I'm sure you will. I've had no problem with my dual bank 20 amp ProMariner. It's the most popular charger out there for wakeboats. I also have a plug ran to the drivers side v-drive locker so I can plug in without climbing in the boat

cab13367
11-10-2010, 05:22 PM
Al, I run two group 31 Deka batteries on the stereo with a couple less amp hour rating than the group 27 you listed. You'll have plenty of play time. Provided you maintain them properly which I'm sure you will. I've had no problem with my dual bank 20 amp ProMariner. It's the most popular charger out there for wakeboats. I also have a plug ran to the drivers side v-drive locker so I can plug in without climbing in the boat

Thanks. Looks like you have the same charger as me - so are your batteries and your charger wired like I described?

cab13367
11-10-2010, 05:28 PM
yes you can tape of the third lead...

I would look into Dual Pro chargers(they have a sportmans series = Cheaper) I use them in my bass boat... very popular amongst bass boats who have 3 and 4 battery systems. Very nice product and excellent customer service....

also the reviews on the Promariner Prosports are horrible......
here is just a sample of bad reviews...
http://www.basspro.com/ProMariner®-Prosport-Series-OnBoard-Marine-Battery-Chargers/product/97825/-1464912

Wow, lots of failed units being reported on that site. Have only had mine about 6 months and it's worked perfectly so far. Wonder if the other guys are getting theirs wet?

lsvboombox
11-10-2010, 05:36 PM
Thanks. Looks like you have the same charger as me - so are your batteries and your charger wired like I described?

technically you can split one lead to charge two batteries(12 volt not 24 volt) but I wouldnt do it.. you may over work the charger and you would only be getting 5 amps per battery versus 10 (10 amps per lead).... plus not sure if that charger can sense bad batteries and shut itself off but if you had 2 batteries hooked up it may not be able to sense any problems.....

If you are using high end batteries I wouldnt do it...

EarmarkMarine
11-10-2010, 06:37 PM
There is little doubt that Dual Pro is one of the premier battery chargers. We have been using ProSport chargers for several years now and have had a single DOA failure among dozens so I give little credit to the reviews. I do see boat owners that place too much of a load on their small chargers because they did not want to invest in the proper size. Its not the number or size of the batteries that present the challenge but rather the degree of discharge. An empty (10.5 volts) on a Group 31 can initially pull 30 amps of current times each battery. Fisherman run their trolling motors down to where you can stop the prop with your finger and then they cheap-out on their charger. Big surprise that they toast their charger. So if you know what you are doing you can avoid most of the problems. Its the same criticisms I hear of Optimas and other battery brands when in reality the mis-use and poor charging habits are the true problem.
The ProSport is distribution on demand so it will provide its full 20 amps to a single bank. If your stereo bank has been run down very low at rest and its a short ride back to the ramp then you have probably drained your starting battery a bit with both banks on-line. You can limp back with the stereo on low or off all together with the starting battery off-line so the alternator has a chance to at least get a surface charge on the stereo batteries and the two banks don't have an opportunity to level their charge. You can also temporarily shut the charger off the starting bank if that battery has had the opportunity to discharge into a highly depleted stereo bank. This way the charger can fully address the stereo bank without the extra load for the time being. Make sure that an ACR/VSR doesn't get in the way of these options. Use the necessary isolation switching. A good digital voltmeter on the batteries, not at the helm, and a small selector switch is worth the minimal investment to manage these processes. Again, if you understand the cuurent state of your batteries and use the right disciplines then you will have zero problems with any of your components and have a very long lifespan on your battery investment.

David
Earmark Marine

cab13367
11-10-2010, 07:01 PM
David,

Thanks for the info. Would you mind responding to this question:

So this winter, I am going to add a second stereo battery to my system for a total of three batteries (one starting, two for the stereo). I have the Prosport 20 Gen 2 dual bank charger and want to confirm the correct way to wire the batteries and the charger. So I think I should connect the two stereo batteries together, that is, wire the pos terminals together and wire the neg terminals together. Then I connect one pair of charger leads to one of the batteries and since they are wired together, they act like one battery.

And I can wire the amps to either battery since they are connected together.

Is this all correct?

Thanks,

Al

lsvboombox
11-10-2010, 07:36 PM
pro mariner doesnt address that type of wiring but I found some info on minnkota chargers, which is still a better charger than the promariners.

http://www.minnkotamotors.com/two_batteries_one_charger_bank.aspx?__taxonomyid=8 75

EarmarkMarine
11-10-2010, 09:10 PM
Al,
That is all correct. Technically, you should wire the amplifiers to the positive of one stereo battery and the negative of the other stereo battery and do the same with the charger. In this scenerio its critically important that you begin with two identical stereo batteries in parallel and always keep them as a singular unbroken bank. Also, try and practice this with the alternator feed that comes through the manual or automatic switch plus the ground that comes from the engine block. This way the two stereo batteries will age equally and maintain the same impedance over time which will increase their longevity and maximize your at rest play time over many seasons. Once paralleled (or seriesed for that matter) batteries begin to discharge and charge a little differently it really accelerates degeneration.
David
Earmark Marine

lsvboombox
11-10-2010, 09:24 PM
Al,
That is all correct. Technically, you should wire the amplifiers to the positive of one stereo battery and the negative of the other stereo battery and do the same with the charger. In this scenerio its critically important that you begin with two identical stereo batteries in parallel and always keep them as a singular unbroken bank. Also, try and practice this with the alternator feed that comes through the manual or automatic switch plus the ground that comes from the engine block. This way the two stereo batteries will age equally and maintain the same impedance over time which will increase their longevity and maximize your at rest play time over many seasons. Once paralleled (or seriesed for that matter) batteries begin to discharge and charge a little differently it really accelerates degeneration.
David
Earmark Marine


David above you referenced fisherman over working chargers causing them to fail but here you give advice to add a 3rd battery to a dual charging system? isnt this going to overwork it causing excessive heat and premature failure?

EarmarkMarine
11-10-2010, 09:58 PM
lsvbb,
This is how I view it whether right or wrong. In this application there is no justification for a triple bank charger. Unless you isolated the two stereo batteries with a separate switch the 3-bank charger would not be able to profile and condition the two batteries independently so you have gained nothing over the dual bank model. The only important issue in this case is the total charger capacity compared to the potential discharged battery consumption based on its amp/hour rating. The general rule is 10 to 13 percent so that a)you don't overcharge, and b)you don't undercharge which would manifest as not adequately chemically exciting a flooded battery and in turn this leads to permanent and irreversable sulfation (sulfer permanently bonded to plates...will not accept a charge anymore...battery is toast). With two stereo batteries having slightly over 200 collective amp/hours that exceed the ten times the 20 amp charger capacity (just over the recommended limit) this is why I suggested above that you have a means to selectively and temporarily take the starting battery off the charger. You might do this only when you have put the boat into storage and the batteries are known to be deeply discharged. This would allow Al to preserve his charger while ensuring that each battery gets enough current to properly desulphate and also satisfy his budget restraints. I'm pretty sure he doesn't want to replace his charger that was just purchased this season.

On another note, when you really understand the challenges of charging systems, especially in the context of big stereos and multiple batteries, you will find many conflicts. For example, extending the life of your batteries can be in direct conflict with preserving your alternator. There are no perfect charging systems...only the best overall compromise. As systems get bigger things definitely get more complex and the approach should vary with different systems. There is no perfect prescription that fits all systems.

David
Earmark Marine

cab13367
11-11-2010, 09:58 AM
Dave,

Thanks for the thorough and informative reply, as always. Just one more question - what type of switch should I use on the charger lead to the starting battery, and do I just splice the switch onto the positive lead?

EarmarkMarine
11-11-2010, 11:56 AM
Al,
For the link between the charger and the starting battery I think a standard 15amp marine switch is fine on the positive lead. This lead should be fused. If the switch doesn't get warm then you have no concerns. For the most part this would not be used. Its just a precaution if you have really run down the batteries and you want to protect your charger against an inordinate and temporary load. I have the same concerns in protecting the alternator in systems with massive stereos. In some cases we run cascading batteries that can manually be brought on or off-line in response to certain circumstances. Again, there is nothing like having a Stinger digital voltmeter wired directly to the two banks via a selector switch so you can get an accurate reading on each bank independently.
On a tangent, here is food for thought. We all know how the larger stereos can place a major demand on our batteries and charging system as a whole.
And, as voltage sags in reality your rated amplifier power also decreases by a pretty large margin. In our system designs we always place alot of emphasis on system efficiency in all phases including signal path, supply voltage plus woofer and amplifier efficiency. System tuning is also a very large factor and far more of an issue than most people realize. Consider that a fullrange Class D amplifier may be 60 percent more efficient than a Class AB amplifier. This means that the Class D converts 20 percent of incomming power to heat while a Class AB converts 50 percent to heat or 250 percent more waste... and even more efficiency is lost when bridged or run at lower impedances. Not to mention that the greater current draw creates an instantaeous voltage sag at the amplifier that can rob you of output power and dynamic range. I can't resist sharing this message in the middle of a charging system discussion.

David
Earmark Marine

you da man
11-11-2010, 01:05 PM
All this fancy electrical talk confuses me. That's why I towed my boat 3hrs and left it with David at Earmark who's staff took care of me.

cab13367
11-11-2010, 02:48 PM
Al,
For the link between the charger and the starting battery I think a standard 15amp marine switch is fine on the positive lead. This lead should be fused. If the switch doesn't get warm then you have no concerns. For the most part this would not be used. Its just a precaution if you have really run down the batteries and you want to protect your charger against an inordinate and temporary load. I have the same concerns in protecting the alternator in systems with massive stereos. In some cases we run cascading batteries that can manually be brought on or off-line in response to certain circumstances. Again, there is nothing like having a Stinger digital voltmeter wired directly to the two banks via a selector switch so you can get an accurate reading on each bank independently.
On a tangent, here is food for thought. We all know how the larger stereos can place a major demand on our batteries and charging system as a whole.
And, as voltage sags in reality your rated amplifier power also decreases by a pretty large margin. In our system designs we always place alot of emphasis on system efficiency in all phases including signal path, supply voltage plus woofer and amplifier efficiency. System tuning is also a very large factor and far more of an issue than most people realize. Consider that a fullrange Class D amplifier may be 60 percent more efficient than a Class AB amplifier. This means that the Class D converts 20 percent of incomming power to heat while a Class AB converts 50 percent to heat or 250 percent more waste... and even more efficiency is lost when bridged or run at lower impedances. Not to mention that the greater current draw creates an instantaeous voltage sag at the amplifier that can rob you of output power and dynamic range. I can't resist sharing this message in the middle of a charging system discussion.

David
Earmark Marine

David,

Thanks for the help. I was thinking a 20 amp switch since that is the max voltage that the charger can deliver.

Al

Al

EarmarkMarine
11-11-2010, 03:00 PM
Al,
By all means if you can get your hands on a 20 amp switch go with it.
David