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tazz3069
08-21-2010, 07:18 PM
I really like the new tower on the XLV boats. My question is, do they still have the 340hp motor? Or did they come out with a bigger motor?

you da man
08-21-2010, 09:19 PM
I'm sure the 400+HP motor is a special order

tazz3069
08-21-2010, 09:48 PM
Really a 400HP motor. I just wish they would get rid of the bags. That tower is really growing on my. Now that a bigger motor is available, makes it even better. The bags are holding me back from even looking at the boat. I guess that I will keep my 07' for another season with only 115 hrs on her.

you da man
08-21-2010, 10:32 PM
My 08 had the option of the 410HP (maybe it was a 409HP, i don't remember the exact HP) motor

tazz3069
08-21-2010, 10:49 PM
I wish I had that option. My salesman never mentioned it to me. If I decide to get the XLV, it will be with the bigger motor for sure. I just need to get over the bag issue. I really do not like them.

Hoopskier
08-21-2010, 10:58 PM
From some reading that I have done in the past regarding certain marine engine, Indmar does not advertise HP ratings on their engines. If you check the Indmar website you will notice no HP ratings. The HP ratings on Indmar engines are provided by the boat manufacturer. PCM advertises their 6.0 engine as 409 HP. Safe bet that a 6.0 is going to be in the 400 HP area. I know that somewhere I read that Indmar's 6.0 engine was producing more HP than PCM.

maxpower220
08-21-2010, 11:52 PM
My engine says "325" on the top. That is the HP, it is advertised. Also, the Cat version has 340 on the top, that is HP also. The 6.0 has 409 on the top.

Hoopskier
08-22-2010, 03:01 AM
My engine says "325" on the top. That is the HP, it is advertised Also, the Cat version has 340 on the top, that is HP also. The 6.0 has 409 on the top.

Just saying the advertised horsepower is done by the boat manufacturer and not the engine producer. Per Indmar.com none of the engines, in the specifications area, state Horsepower:??. Unless you interprit the name as horsepower. Also the 6.0L and the 8.1L engines don't have names the infer a horsepower rating, If you look at the Indmar web page. PCM (not used by skier choice) advertises the rated horsepower of their engines clearly. PCM engine, ZR-409 6.0L, in the specifications area, states Horsepower:409

Getting off the naming/HP issue. I think most have said on this forum that for wakeboarding/wake surfing its not about the horsepower but Torque and getting the right prop. More horspower for the better the top end/speed. Not to say more HP isn't better but not critical for the slower speed/heavier boats for surfing. In the end I would buy the most I could afford. That way can't look back and say "I wish I would have"

Hoopskier
08-22-2010, 03:09 AM
I really like the new tower on the XLV boats. My question is, do they still have the 340hp motor? Or did they come out with a bigger motor?

Well for 2010 they had the 325 HP, the 340HP, and the 409 HP for the Mobius XLV on the build sheet options. I would think the same for 2011.

you da man
08-22-2010, 06:18 AM
My 325 engine has no problems pulling my 240lb friend up, 4 in the boat, and 3,400lbs of ballast when surfing.

zegm
08-23-2010, 03:15 PM
Getting off the naming/HP issue. I think most have said on this forum that for wakeboarding/wake surfing its not about the horsepower but Torque and getting the right prop. More horspower for the better the top end/speed. Not to say more HP isn't better but not critical for the slower speed/heavier boats for surfing. In the end I would buy the most I could afford. That way can't look back and say "I wish I would have"

Horsepower is a function of torque. So the more torque you have the more horsepower you will have if you can spin the engine faster. Bigger engines make more torque due to displacements and compression ratios. For example diesels are torque monsters but don't make much horsepower as compared to a gas engine due to their lower RPM limits. My wifes 2.0 liter VW TDI only makes 140 horsepower but 235 ft.lb of torque due to the high compression ratios of diesel engines. Gas engines depend on higher RPM's to make Hp due to the lower torque they provide with their lower compression ratios.

For a given torque and speed, the power may be calculated; the relationship between torque in foot-pounds, rotational speed in RPM and horsepower is:

P(hp)= (T[ft.-lb])(ω[RPM])/5252 or Hp = T x RPM / 5252

Where P is power, Τ is torque, and ω is rotations per minute. The constant 5252 comes from (33,000 ft·lbf/min)/(2π rad./rev.).

The fact that most big diesel engines redline at less than 3000rpm illustrates the vast amount of torque they make at lower RPMs. This pretty much explains why Large boats and Trains use diesel engines, they need torque at lower RPM's to get the large Mass moving. This also helps by not having to have a lot of gear reduction in a big gearbox that would be needed with a Gas engine turning high RPM's to generate sufficient torque to move a heavy object. But in a skiboat you need both torque and RPM, if the RPM is limited you will not be able to go fast as you don't have a gear box to help spin the prop faster. So a bigblock gas engine would be the WAY to go if you want torque and speed in a skiboat! Check out the old MasterCraft Barefoot boat. They all said 454 cu in on the back of them!

NCSUmoomba
08-23-2010, 06:46 PM
We were talking to Zane Schwenk in Knoxville last weekend and he has been testing a new engine that MC just released. I think he said it was a supercharged 6.2L that puts out 540HP. He said he can run 4500# of ballast in his XStar and it runs 700 rpm less that the natrually aspirated version. I am not sure if it is an Indmar or an Ilmor, though.

Brianinpdx
08-23-2010, 08:31 PM
oMg ED - I just about fell off my deck reading your post.

I have a stock answer too! When guys bust out the tech talk on me I just say,"1000 watts all day long".

- Brian, 1000 watts

Ps; I'll shoot you some stickers

deerfield
08-23-2010, 09:08 PM
The fact that most big diesel engines redline at less than 3000rpm illustrates the vast amount of torque they make at lower RPMs. This pretty much explains why Large boats and Trains use diesel engines, they need torque at lower RPM's to get the large Mass moving.

Hey, zegm = While it would have no practical application to ski boats, it seems to me that large boats could use a diesel engine to get the mass moving and then switch to gas at higher speed. Anything like that with a dual engine system on the market now? - Deerfield

maxpower220
08-23-2010, 09:39 PM
A lot of the harbor tugs in CA are moving to a diesel-electric hybrid system. Electric motor is 100% torque at all rpms. The motors can work on total electric, total diesel, or a combo of both. I saw a show on History about them. The show stated that over the first year, they were using 35% less diesel and had cut maintenance costs by 55%. I don't know where they got those numbers or how long it takes to offset the original cost.


I do know that my wife's Ford Fusion Hybrid gets great gas milage around town and is one of the best cars we have owned.

sandm
08-24-2010, 07:59 AM
Ps; I'll shoot you some stickers

I'll take 2 please. It's a well known fact from my old import car days that stickers add approx. 10hp for each one. stop any kid with a honda and they'll confirm this :)

kaneboats
08-24-2010, 11:22 AM
If the sticker says "turbo" it adds 20 HP.

pogofx
08-24-2010, 11:35 AM
If it says VTEC, Si, or Type R, I think you get like 30 HP. Potentially 90 HP if it says all three. :)

viking
08-24-2010, 11:38 AM
Big Fat tires on a car add about 50Hp I think :p

zegm
08-24-2010, 12:14 PM
A lot of the harbor tugs in CA are moving to a diesel-electric hybrid system. Electric motor is 100% torque at all rpms. The motors can work on total electric, total diesel, or a combo of both. I saw a show on History about them. The show stated that over the first year, they were using 35% less diesel and had cut maintenance costs by 55%. I don't know where they got those numbers or how long it takes to offset the original cost.


I do know that my wife's Ford Fusion Hybrid gets great gas milage around town and is one of the best cars we have owned.

American Locomotives use the diesel electric system due to the fact the electric motors can deliver 100% torque at all RPMs. The new GE AC/DC Diesel Locomotives have 16 cylinder 7000hp Duetz Diesels turning the generators. They are the most powerful trains in the world!!! My son and I got to tour the cab of one CSX Locomotive a few years ago. Go USA!

Ok I am confused, how can one family own a Chevy and a Ford at the same time??? :)

A few years ago MasterCraft offered a Marine version of the VW V-10 Diesel engine that comes in my Touareg. With 550 lb-ft of torque at 1200RPM it should have no trouble getting anyone up! And as far as Diesel engines go the new VWs, BMW and Mercedes Diesels rev up to almost 5000rpm so you get the speed too! I just couldn't afford a 100k skiboat!

kaneboats
08-24-2010, 12:15 PM
They are Americans.

mmandley
08-24-2010, 12:19 PM
Getting in a little late as i was at Lake Billy all weekend wow it was awesome.

As for Torque and HP i agree with Zegm but my friend you forgot another factor in your spark plug inhibited world.

Torque and HP are not limited as much by size and rpm as you think. There are many factors to explain this.

1 350 Inmar engine 5.7L 325 hp. Now this same engine has been used for some 50 years now and has had as many HP and Torque ratings as a red light district has customers.

For Gas engines HP is determined by how much Air+Fuel+Compression * RPM = Finaly output numbers.

Case in point. 350 engine with 325 horse and 325 torque. Change Only the Cam in it and you will get 350 HP and 350 Torque, so what changed the amount of lift in the valves allowing more gas and air to be compressed but all this at the same RPM.

Diesel now this is a completely different beast.
mine for example is 6.0 that's apx 400cu block. Revs to 4500 RPM red line HP is only 300 but torque is 690.

Diesels already work on super high compression due to diesel burning at a much higher temp then gas but when it does burn the explosion it creates is so much stronger and this is were the twisting or torque power comes into play. This is how a Diesel will have lower HP and higher torque.

as for the older conversation about HP and Torque in Indmar engines is they don't list Torque at all and refuse to. Most and almost all Boat companies wont list the torque of an engine. This is due to it being irrelevant when you add a prop because you can have the same engine on 3 boats and change the props and they behave very differently. We did this is the prop testing.

If you really want to know how much torque is in your engine take it out and dyno it, then subtract 7% for the drive train and that's a very close apx to the torque on your prop. In a car or truck its as much as 25% loss in the drive train.

zegm
08-24-2010, 02:37 PM
You know it could be that Indmar doesn't have an engine dyno!
You are right about the props and the different hulls etc. My old Stars and Stripe supposedly had just 225hp but she was still the fastest skiboat I have ever been in. And that was probably like you said the original owner changed the cam so he could barefoot with it!
Can you clear up the 7% loss as it relates to the V-drive vs. the Direct drive? :)

PS and don't let us forget that little pistons can always spin faster!

zegm
08-24-2010, 02:42 PM
They are Americans.

Exactly my point, you are either on one side of the fence or the other.

Ford or Chevy

Republican or Democrat

Diesel or Gas

One piece or two piece!

Speedo or board shorts!

Tiger or Elin

DD or VD

I think you get my drift! :p

PS we had a surprise visit with a famous golfer and his ex-wife yesterday!!!

mmandley
08-24-2010, 02:49 PM
You know it could be that Indmar doesn't have an engine dyno!
Y
Can you clear up the 7% loss as it relates to the V-drive vs. the Direct drive? :)

PS and don't let us forget that little pistons can always spin faster!

The 7% is the drag loss of the drive train transmission. A V drive wont cause much loss as its really only 2 gears splined together. Transmissions will have a % loss due to rotational drag and such. 7% might be high even IDK for sure i just know there is a loss.

In a car or truck you can see this loss very easily, Dealers always advertise the HP and Torque as at the rear of the engine, now go put your car on a Dyno and you will see true numbers. This is also why you hear gear heads talk about i got 400 HP at the Rear wheel. This means they are closer to 450 HP at the engine because the trans, drive shaft, rear diff, and if you have 4x4 transfer case all rob power and torque as it takes a certain amount to turn those units.

maxpower220
08-24-2010, 03:27 PM
Hp and Tq can (and in the case of boat engines) are measured at the crankshaft. There is nothing to do with mechanical losses.
HP and TQ are tied together mathmatically. In every 4 stroke engine, tq and hp will always be the same at 5252 rpm.

maxpower220
08-24-2010, 03:33 PM
Ok I am confused, how can one family own a Chevy and a Ford at the same time??? :)

I got hooked on the Avalanche a long time ago. As long as they make one, I will probably own one as it meets all of my needs in a great package.
When searching for my wife a car, nothing was even close to the Fusion Hybrid. We drove Prius (golf cart), Civic Hybrid (nice, but Japanese), BMW 5, and MB E class (both nice, but expensive and nothing good for mpg).

In the end, I do try to support American businesses if the product is the same or better. No matter where the product is made, the profits go to the homeland of the company. When America doesn't make a product that I want/need, I search for European markets before Asian. That is another reason I have an aprilia Dorsoduro.

zegm
08-24-2010, 03:56 PM
I got hooked on the Avalanche a long time ago. As long as they make one, I will probably own one as it meets all of my needs in a great package.
When searching for my wife a car, nothing was even close to the Fusion Hybrid. We drove Prius (golf cart), Civic Hybrid (nice, but Japanese), BMW 5, and MB E class (both nice, but expensive and nothing good for mpg).

In the end, I do try to support American businesses if the product is the same or better. No matter where the product is made, the profits go to the homeland of the company. When America doesn't make a product that I want/need, I search for European markets before Asian. That is another reason I have an aprilia Dorsoduro.

Well my wife traded in her 2005 Mexican made Avalanche for her 2006 Mexican made VW Diesel Jetta. Next time try one of those, 40mpg and Fast at the same time! When they came out with the Wagon version she traded that one it for it! They added 40 more hp (140) and 50 lb-ft of torque (235) and it is even faster. A diesel station wagon that has a top speed of 128mph!!! I even installed a hitch on it, not for the Moomba but her other boats....kayaks.
We did love the 4 x4 Avalance but I ordered it with a 4:10 rear axle ratio. What was I thinking????

Now if I can only talk her into an Italian motorcycle!!! :p

maxpower220
08-24-2010, 09:47 PM
My wife's previous car was a Volvo S60-R. She doesn't need to go fast any more. 300 hp with AWD, and I think she used all 300 everyday.

zegm
08-25-2010, 02:14 PM
My wife's previous car was a Volvo S60-R. She doesn't need to go fast any more. 300 hp with AWD, and I think she used all 300 everyday.

We noticed that when the wife went from a sedan to a station wagon that she gets LESS attention for the enforcement folk! Which is a good thing because she too only knows one position for the gas pedal too, all the way down! Especially if there is a Prius around! :)

kaneboats
08-25-2010, 02:17 PM
In Florida, a white Crown Vic or even an SUV is practically invisible. Ours has an "Id Rather Be Golfing" front plate. It screams elderly. HA HA. Never had a ticket in that one.

zegm
08-25-2010, 04:03 PM
In Florida, a white Crown Vic or even an SUV is practically invisible. Ours has an "Id Rather Be Golfing" front plate. It screams elderly. HA HA. Never had a ticket in that one.

You are spot on with the SUV thing. Since I went from my BMW 540i to my Touareg I seem to be invisible too! And I haven't changed the way I drive now either.

Shoot! I probably shouldn't have said that. I will let you know tomorrow if I get a ticket on the way home tonight. :p

sandm
08-25-2010, 07:05 PM
funny how that all works out. I get looks from cops all day long on my '08 kawi zx6r, but every so often I pull out the tgb 150cc scooter. I can run that thing all day long at 50 in a 30 and not even get a second look from an officer...

go figure..

zegm
08-26-2010, 01:52 PM
funny how that all works out. I get looks from cops all day long on my '08 kawi zx6r, but every so often I pull out the tgb 150cc scooter. I can run that thing all day long at 50 in a 30 and not even get a second look from an officer...

go figure..

In the near future I am going to purchase a Ducati and man does the red one look gorgeous! But maybe I should get the black one?