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View Full Version : Need Ballast pump and setup recommendations



bergermaister
10-06-2010, 09:11 PM
I could use some guidance on my winter upgrade project.

Planning to run 2 1100 bags in the rear corners of my boat. Each partially full for wakeboarding, or one side at a time full for surfing. I doubt I'll ever be filling both 1100's full at the same time except maybe to see what it looks like at least once!

Would I be better off to share one Tsunami 1200 to fill the rear bags using a splitter and electric switches or just go with two Tsunami 1200's and skip the valves?

As for switches, wiring, plumbing, etc. it will all be custom as basically nothing exists. For the intake I have room and am not afraid to drill another hole in the hull for the additional pump(s). >>I have a Rule pump in there already that will be used to fill my front bag.<<

Cost on this isn't a real big deal but why spend the money, drill the holes, plumb it, wire it, etc. if I don't really have to? Plus I've noticed it seems like the cost of electric valves is almost as much as pumps.

My thoughts are - simpler is better. Oh yeah, and I only wanna do this once!

Advice and experiences would be much appreciated.

brain_rinse
10-06-2010, 10:10 PM
I can go into a lot of detail but I'll try to keep it short for now. I have 4 dedicated Tsunami 1200 fill pumps, one for each bag. It's a great setup and it is FAST! The downfall is that by the time you add drain pumps, vents, loops and check valves, it's a little overcomplicated and expensive if you're starting from scratch.

A much simpler setup is to do the reversible johnson or jabsco pumps and be done with it. Maybe a little more expensive, but probably not if you're starting from scratch. Downfall is that you can't let them run dry for very long or you'll be replacing impellers.

You said "simpler is better. Oh yeah, and I only wanna do this once!" So my recommendation would be reversible pumps.

bergermaister
10-07-2010, 01:44 AM
Ha! I should clarify a little. I don't have a real fat wallet...

I have a Tsunami 1200 pump sitting on the shelf waiting to go - so buying a couple more 1200 or 800's is not a huge expense - definitely cheaper than a Jabsco or Johnson!

I have "some" of the plumbing - hose, fittings laying around as well. I would still need to invest in a few pieces, fittings, switches, etc. though. The boat also already has drain and vent lines and thru hull fittings for those up under the rub rail, unfortunately they are out the back though. (I have a 400lb sac on each side at the moment, single fill/drain switch, but those are going away so it's sort of like starting from scratch)

I can see where we would be switching from riding normal to goofy, filling one side while draining the other and it would be nice for that to not take forever.

Are you also draining with 1200's? I have two little Rule pumps right now with my 400lb sacs but have no idea what they are rated for flow. They seem slooooooooooow to me... That's where the cost of a couple extra drain pumps would come in but that's not a big deal.

So basically I'm ruling out the reversible pumps and trying to figure out what to do with multiple pumps.

saskie99
10-07-2010, 12:30 PM
For the extra 40 bucks a pump, I am going to dedicate one to each 750 and the use my rule 2000 for the ski locker and bow ballast. They will take a little longer to fill but no worries. I just want to be able to fill a side for surfing as fast as I empty the other one. I may even plumb a valve into the vent line so I can fill one of my extra 400s on the seat.

Canuckle Head
10-07-2010, 12:47 PM
I could use some guidance on my winter upgrade project.

Planning to run 2 1100 bags in the rear corners of my boat. Each partially full for wakeboarding, or one side at a time full for surfing. I doubt I'll ever be filling both 1100's full at the same time except maybe to see what it looks like at least once!

Would I be better off to share one Tsunami 1200 to fill the rear bags using a splitter and electric switches or just go with two Tsunami 1200's and skip the valves?

As for switches, wiring, plumbing, etc. it will all be custom as basically nothing exists. For the intake I have room and am not afraid to drill another hole in the hull for the additional pump(s). >>I have a Rule pump in there already that will be used to fill my front bag.<<

Cost on this isn't a real big deal but why spend the money, drill the holes, plumb it, wire it, etc. if I don't really have to? Plus I've noticed it seems like the cost of electric valves is almost as much as pumps.

My thoughts are - simpler is better. Oh yeah, and I only wanna do this once!

Advice and experiences would be much appreciated.

How the heck are you going to fit 1100 lb sacs in your rear lockers? I have 750's and they are a a tight fit already. :confused:

brain_rinse
10-07-2010, 01:41 PM
Ok, with the addl info I'd say definitely go dedicated tsunami 1200s on both the fill and the drain. Look closely at your costs though... by the time you add vented loops, drain pumps, and associated fittings I'd bet the reversible pumps are only slightly more expensive.

T100
10-07-2010, 06:52 PM
http://media.wakemakers.com/tag/jabsco-ballast-pump/

Just to give you a visual of the set up.

viking
10-07-2010, 08:07 PM
Downfall is that you can't let them run dry for very long or you'll be replacing impellers.

So how do people ensure they don't burn through impellers? Especially when the bags are hidden from site and there may be other things/sounds in the boat that keeps the ear occupied? Or in the case of myself - just getting old and hard of hearing :)

deafgoose
10-07-2010, 08:11 PM
So how do people ensure they don't burn through impellers? Especially when the bags are hidden from site and there may be other things/sounds in the boat that keeps the ear occupied? Or in the case of myself - just getting old and hard of hearing :)

You can get fill/drain switches that have built-in timers. :D

sandm
10-07-2010, 08:17 PM
How the heck are you going to fit 1100 lb sacs in your rear lockers? I have 750's and they are a a tight fit already. :confused:


I have a 750 on one side and an 1100 on the other. 750 fills up full and still leaves a lot of unused space around the hatch. 1100 never fills completely, but the rear hatch in my boat has every conceivable square inch of space filled. I'm guessing(again a big guess here) that the 1100 side has 150-200lbs more when both are filled up full. does your 750 fill the ENTIRE compartment front to back and from floor to touching the underside of the hatch?

I think this all depends on the boat, as each skiers model has a slightly different rear hatch setup and overall size...

Canuckle Head
10-07-2010, 09:11 PM
I am not 100% positive but Berg's boat is a 2001 Mobius V so I was thinking that it's the same hull size as my 07 OBV. Please correct me if I'm wrong. When I completely fill my 750 it fills the locker completely full from front to back and side to side but there is a bit of space from the top of the bag to the underside of the locker door. So I am not so sure there is much to gain by going to the 1100? I believe the 1100 is the same length as the 750 but is 4" wider and 4" higher.

Canuckle Head
10-07-2010, 09:17 PM
http://media.wakemakers.com/tag/jabsco-ballast-pump/

Just to give you a visual of the set up.

This is what I am building except for the y fitting, check valve and thru hull vent. I went with Johnson pumps instead of the Jabsco however.

Paully
10-07-2010, 11:54 PM
It is preference.
I run the 1100's. They fill bottom of compartment nicely and shape themselves to area, then all the seams are not at full stretch too. I fill them to ~80-90% and off we go. BIII system is fine and fill/empty times are not bad (10 min each)
Cheapest option for extra discharge is a check valve before pump with a line to the bilge. It is there and works great (good gpm) but you have to get over the fact you are intentionally filling your boat with free water.

Good luck...!

bergermaister
10-08-2010, 12:22 AM
Canuckle - Mine is definitely tight front to back, but I've had my 750 in the rear locker and had room to spare top to bottom and side to side. The 1100 I have only gets about 90-95% full I'd guess, but as was already mentioned, conforms to the space. I actually picked up the 1100 on a closeout deal for cheaper than a 750 so I figured what the hell!

I live fairly close to WakeMakers so I can get parts same day which is great. I'm sure I'll be making a few visits there in the coming months. I know it's cheesy, but my temporary solution to unwanted draining through my vent lines was wine corks in the thru hull fittings! I give full credit for that idea from one the guys on here running a MC...

I haven't really experienced any drain back with my "old" Rule fill pump and there are no one way valves or vent backs on it. I'm wondering how much of a problem that will be with the new setup?

With my back compartments so full and tight when the bag(s) are filled I'm sort of wondering if I will have room for vent back loops....

I guess it wouldn't be that big of a deal to hit the fill switch and top off the bags every once in a while but obviously don't want to be thinking about that while we're surfing along.

Canuckle Head
10-08-2010, 03:01 AM
Why not put a PVC ball valve between your sac and the vent hole? Once the bag is full you just close the valve and voilą! Just remember to open it before draining. I've also heard of guys routing their vent lines to the opposite side of the hull from the ballast bag as a simple fix.

Dang, I should have gone with the 1100's!

bergermaister
10-08-2010, 10:16 AM
That's always an option but part of the goal of this upgrade is to not have to open the engine cover, mess around with valves and pumps, and not forget to take corks out or whatever. I've been doing that all summer and my engine cover is a one piece so it's a pain, especially if doing it with the engine running. Instead I'm looking to flip a couple switches and kick back.

We'd rather be talking smack about the last run, looking at the pics or vid, queue up the next favorite song, digging into the cooler, etc!

Looking at that diagram for the Jabsco setup I hadn't thought about venting off the fill line with the Y splitter, instead of the seperate vent outlet. I could run another through hull fitting up on the side of the boat that would basically be above the bag and cap the existing one going out the back. It basically acts as a gravity fed drain without some sort of intervention.

What about unwanted draining out the drain pumps (seepage?) while the sacs are full and boat is underway - is that ever a problem?

Canuckle Head
10-08-2010, 12:14 PM
What about unwanted draining out the drain pumps (seepage?) while the sacs are full and boat is underway - is that ever a problem?

Apparently not with the impellar pumps.

bergermaister
10-08-2010, 12:50 PM
Ok, I was thinking with the Tsunamis though. I'm guessing since the one way check valves and vent back loops exist that this could be a problem...

But how big of a problem?

NCSUmoomba
10-08-2010, 02:33 PM
I will add a couple of things...

First, I believe that the 2001 Mobius V is a 23 foot boat, isn't it? This would explain the bags fitting better. Also, don't forget that the Tsunami 1200's are that odd 1-1/8" size, and it is almost impossible to find fittings for them. For the 1100# fat sac, theoretical fill time for a T1200 would be 6.6 minutes, with the T800 it would be 9.9 minutes. So if you went with the 800's, you fill time would be about 3.3 minutes longer, but you won't pull your hair out looking for fittings. What we really need is for Attwood to make a T1000 that is a 1" size.

As far as the aerator pumps are concerned, water will seep past the pumps, both in and out in some cases. Especially if the sac is really full, the pressure in it can push the water back out of the sac when you turn off the pump. Some way to stop this is necessary. You can use manual or electric valves, but I think the vented loops are the simplest way, and they operate hands off. However, placement of these loops is important.

I was planning a ballast system for my Outback and was planning on three sacs, with two T800's for each sac with vented loops and either one big thru hull, or one for each pump. I think the parts list for this system added up to over $1200 (without the bags). All of these thru hulls and plumbing and wiring adds up, plus it gets really complicated to install. It is worse in my direct drive because finding room to mount the pumps below the waterline is tough.

I think, if I ever do this, I will go with three of the Johnson pumps. There is less wiring, no vented loops, less thru hulls, and I can mount them anywhere. And since they are 720gph, it will not be noticably slower than the T800's. I am also fairly confident that I will come out a tad bit less expensive in the end.

Canuckle Head
10-08-2010, 03:22 PM
Didn't Moomba upgrade the Mobius in 2006 and up until then the hull was/is the same as the OBV? :confused:

bergermaister
10-08-2010, 03:49 PM
http://www.moomba.com/msgboard/picture.php?albumid=44&pictureid=456

I seriously question the 40gal tank as I've never put that much in - but then again, I'm chicken to run it that low!

My hull always seems to me like it is not as deep at the rear as newer boats and the storage compartments not quite as long.

Canuckle Head
10-08-2010, 04:40 PM
Thanks for clearing that up Berg.

bergermaister
10-08-2010, 04:56 PM
Thanks for all the input guys. I think I'm going to sketch it out (yet again) and run it by WakeMakers to get their take on the plan.

Part of what I like about the forums is some of the stories and questions that spin off from the original topic. Fun stuff and I often learn or find something else I wasn't originally after!

bergermaister
10-11-2010, 05:31 PM
So after a bit of head scratching I'm wondering if this type of layout will work?

I'm feeling confident in the setup except possibly for the electric control valve at the end of the system (Irritrol or similar). I'm thinking I'll combine the drain and vent lines together, have them pass through the electric valve, then out the through hull.

When the ballast switch is on "FILL" the fill pump comes on AND the electric valve opens allowing the vent to do it's job. When the ballast switch is off, the valve is closed, keeping the vent or drain line from leaking. When the ballast switch is on "DRAIN" the drain pump comes on and again the electric valve opens.

Simply put, the electric valve opens any time a pump is running. Am I missing anything here? Major no-nos?

This is basically one half of the setup or one side of the boat.

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/August2010/Surfing/Moomba/Moomba-Ballast-1side.jpg

ORboatpilot
10-11-2010, 07:34 PM
Did you search for other installs? Take a look at mine.
http://www.moomba.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=12664

I know the valves are going to kill your fill and empty times. I know the T1200 pumps have a propiatary thread that does not work with 1" NPT. I'm just saying you shouldn't have to re-invent the wheel here.

bergermaister
10-11-2010, 07:57 PM
I'm taking a look - thanks ORboatpilot! Your setup is basically the exact route I want to go. I know the 1200 fittings can be a pain but willing to work through that.

With the 1100 bag filling the rear compartment so fully I don't have a lot of options for a high point to mount a vented loop back there and questioned how well that would work anyway with the boat listing at surf speeds. Now I see another route is to run more line to the bow stick the loop further up towards the front of the boat or midship. Hmmm...

All the vent and drain thru hull fittings on my boat are out the rear unfortunately - came that way. I was kind of hoping to reuse those instead of adding new vents and/or drains further up and capping off the old ones but it appears that may be the way to go to avoid the crowded space in the back.

I guess that is still an option. I wouldn't mind getting some more details on your setup. May do some tinkering around tonight after I get home and send you a PM after I investigate further!

cab13367
10-13-2010, 02:08 AM
Berg,

Here's the link to my install.

http://moomba.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=11243&highlight=ballast+upgrade

Be sure to look at the pics on pg 5 also.

I went with one, 1" intake feeding two T-800's and one stock Rule 2000 (acutally a 1200gph pump). Here's the deal on the auto fill, auto drain issue. If you don't use valves or vent loops, the rear sacs will usually auto drain, but will not auto fill. The front sac will usually do both - auto fill when sitting, auto drain when underway.

So my solution was to install brass swing check valves for the rears (cheaper than plastic check valves and less restrictive) at about a 45 degree angle and an Irritrol electric valve for the front. I don't have any auto filling or auto draining issues with any of the bags. And I solved the auto drain thru the drain fitting on the rear surf side sack by routing the vent hose as high as possible, higher than the vent fitting on the bag. As long as that is the case, the water will not auto drain out the drain fitting.

Hope that helps.

kaneboats
10-13-2010, 02:20 PM
I went with one, 1" intake feeding two T-800's and one stock Rule 2000 (acutally a 1200gph pump).

Have you seen specs on the Rule 2000? I've always thought the Tsunami 1200's were just as good or better. This would not surprise me one bit.

cab13367
10-13-2010, 03:48 PM
Have you seen specs on the Rule 2000? I've always thought the Tsunami 1200's were just as good or better. This would not surprise me one bit.

Yes, see below. The Rule 2000 is also known as the 207F as shown in the pic. Now look at the GPH spec for the 207F in the table.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg276/cab13367/RuleSpecs.jpg

kaneboats
10-14-2010, 04:32 PM
Thanks, Al. I suspected as much -- that 2000 doesn't mean a dang thing. These are not bad pumps and I have 3 of them but they aren't spectacular and aren't any better than the tsunami but cost more around here (I did my shopping online in Nov or Dec a couple years ago).

newty
10-23-2010, 01:50 AM
Berg, wow how did I miss this thread?:p
I wouldn't worry about the solenoid on the discharge. I'd just run it out of the other side of the boat. so when the left fills it overflows out the right. When the left is full it will lower the left side of the boat which will raise the discharge more than a foot from the normal overflow height.

Either way let me know, I'd love to help. You buy the beer, and I'll drill the holes in your boat. I need the practice, I'm doing mine this winter too! ;)

What... I have the tools!!!

Seriously we'll make it work. Give me a call lets do it.

kaneboats
10-23-2010, 02:38 AM
You buy the beer, and I'll drill the holes in your boat.

How many times have I heard that one?

bergermaister
10-25-2010, 03:56 PM
Hey Newt-

I would expect nothing less from you! Ha!
I'll give you a ring when the time comes for sure. I may hold off until after the holidays or may get a wild hair and start next month - kind of up in the air. I just found a house that I may make an offer on which will create a distraction for sure...

Should probably show you my setup and see what you think. I'm debating a lot on drilling new thru hulls on the sides for drain/vent lines. Wanted to use the existing ones out the back but that may end up being more of a drawback and hassle then it's worth. Still thinking the fewer parts (valves, loops, one-ways) the better.