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mnpracing
10-18-2010, 07:35 PM
I've posted on here about this issue with my boat. There was another member that also had this issue on his 05 I believe. I brought my boat into the dealer for them to take a look at, and they worked with Skier's Choice to get this covered under warranty, even though I'm the second owner (issue was identified within a week of owning it though).

The dealer uses a custom paint / body / marine shop for any glass work. I reluctantly took my boat in, met the owner, and was put at ease that they would take care with my boat and walk me through their process and keep me informed of progress, and invited me to stop in anytime to monitor progress. They then took 30 minutes to talk through what they would do and made sure that I understood and asked any questions. That was last Wednesday.

I stopped in today and they took 20 minutes to walk me through what they have done so far. They have cut the hole in the bottom of the ski locker, pulled out the foam in the immediate area, and it is sitting in the shop drying out. Once that is done, they will refill the missing foam, reglass the hole and re-gelcoat the entire ski locker. One issue that they identified was that the front of the ski locker floor is not sealed to the hull at the bow, which allows water to enter the space under the ski locker. This, to me, is an obvious miss at the factory. The space is supposed to be filled with foam and presumably meant to be bone dry. The gap between the front of the ski locker and the hull is approximately 4 inches by 1 inch, more than enough room for water to make it's way under the ski locker. Below is a picture of the hole where the foam was removed. It's hard to see, but there are two inches of standing water at the bottom of the hole. The process was to remove the foam, suck out the standing water, let more water accumulate, suck it out, repeat. The foam is saturated. If it doesn't dry out within a couple of days, they will likely remove more foam, then repeat the process.

To access the front of the locker to seal the gap between the subfloor and the hull, they will install a 4" deck plate access panel in the floor right where your feet would rest if you were sitting in the frontmost bow seat. From there, they will be able to seal the gap then re-gelcoat the locker. I'm going to stop back in on Friday, so I'll take more pics.

http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab49/mnpracing/IMG_3462.jpg

http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab49/mnpracing/IMG_3463.jpg

brain_rinse
10-18-2010, 10:03 PM
Good info, thanks for posting. Good luck with the repair!

gonracn
10-18-2010, 11:39 PM
How did you initially discover this issue? Is it common among one line or should we all be worried?

mnpracing
10-19-2010, 12:28 AM
I initially discovered the issue from reading a post on this forum from several people that had this issue. Kojack was one of them, you can search for his posts and see how he is coping with it. He installed a deck fill port in the bottom of his locker floor and uses that access point to shopvac any water out of it periodically. That would have been my psuedo-fix too, if warranty did not cover the repair ($1,500).

I didn't notice the issue at first, even after specifically looking for it. I started looking for the issue by stepping into the locker and lightly bouncing up and down. I felt nothing at first, the floor was solid, so I thought all was good. But then a few days later, when cleaning out the boat, I stepped more forward in the locker, and there the floor had some give. I wasn't alarmed though, because on my 06 OBV the floor had some give as well. Well, then I heard water squishing under the floor. Then, I noticed when I bounced a little I could hear water squishing out waayy up front (in the locker) up where the locker floor meets the hull in the bow. I then got my head in there and pushed down just with my hands/arms and could SEE the water squishing out where the locker floor meets the hull in the bow.

I'm assuming that is where the water entered this space. I assume the water that gets into the locker from rollers or from the ballast bag sloshes up to the bow area then down through the gap in the floor/hull mating area, and viola, water UNDER the locker floor. It is also a possibility that the locker floor itself has some structural issues as there are a number of what look like air bubbles that have popped, so the black floor material (gelcoat?) has peeled off from the layer of fiberglass that makes up the locker floor. Water may be leaking down under the locker floor this way as well.

Hopefully reglassing and gelcoating the locker compartment and sealing off the locker floor/hull mating area will solve the issue. If not, I'll be installing the flush-mount deck fill port like Kojack did...but most of the time in the shop is just waiting for the darn foam to dry out....

cab13367
10-19-2010, 02:12 AM
Well, I think I have water under my ski locker as well. When I put my foot in the ski locker, as far forward as possible, and bounce up and down lightly, I can hear water under the locker. Seems like a lot of water under there. But there is no obvious place that I can see where the water is going down in there.

So my question is, it's been like that probably since I bought the boat new 4 years ago - what is it hurting? Even if SC will pay for it, why should I have the ski locker opened up and the foam and water removed? What will it hurt if I just leave it alone?

I'll give the dealer a call tomorrow and see what they say.

Al

mnpracing
10-19-2010, 10:06 AM
Cab, I'm wondering the same thing, what does it hurt?
1. I know there's some different opinions (maybe it's been verified) as to whether there is wood anywhere in the hull. If there is, that would be bad to have it constantly wet down there.

2. The extra weight (I trailer mine). Don't know how much water is down there, but the space is about 5 inches deep, 4+ feet long, and 4 or so feet wide. Granted, it tapers based on the hull shape, but still a significant amount of water.

3. The floatation foam is useless when saturated.

4. It stinks in both senses of the word (smells and it just shouldn't be there).

5. A constantly saturated state has to be doing some long-term damage to the hull/locker floor, stringers, etc. in addition to mold growth. May not hurt anything in 3-5 years, but what about 10 years? How much is the life of the components, and the whole boat, shortened because of this?

6. On principle, it just shouldn't be there (or there should be a deliberately-designed way to get it out). I appreciate a value-priced boat without some bells & whistles, but it should be structurally sound. What good is a lower price if core quality is compromised? And just in case other brands have experienced this issue, I don't care about other brands. If I hit a deer with my car, and someone else says "it's OK, it's happened to me", it really doesn't make me feel any better....

gonracn
10-19-2010, 02:30 PM
So how is the water getting into that area? Is coming up from the bottom or is it getting there over time from boards and people dripping water.

mnpracing
10-19-2010, 03:35 PM
Gonrcn - see my post 2 up that describes where I think it's entering this space. Not certain, but it's all I've come up with so far.

cab13367
10-19-2010, 03:48 PM
mnpracing,

One thing I just thought of - you are assuming that all the water that is in the cavity under your ski locker is all going to flow down to the back of the ski locker, where they have cut out a hole. However, I believe that there are stringers down there that crisscross each other (or run one direction with blocking between them probably) and are bonded to the hull. So it seems that the water would be collecting in separate compartments down there rather than in just one big one. Does that make sense?

Maybe we should review some of the photos of the factory tours - we might find one that shows what it looks like down there.

Al

mnpracing
10-19-2010, 04:26 PM
Cab, that could be true. I didn't consider that. I will ask the guy whose working on the boat to see if he's considered that. He might have to make another hole further up in the compartment to find out....

T100
10-20-2010, 02:25 PM
Ok guys I have discovered I have the same problem after doing some fall clean up in the front locker AND I HAVE A LOT OF WATER UNDER THERE. I do not have the option of taking it to a Moomba dealer and I know Kojack installed a deck fill port at the bottom but how does a guy permanently fix this problem... where is the water coming from and if we do put a port access in and vacuum the water out are we getting all of it. Not to mention freezing in the winter and what it will do to the foam core.....for the winterization is vacuuming out the water enough? Any in put on this would be great, thanks guys! 2004 Mobius LSV

cab13367
10-20-2010, 04:25 PM
Ok guys I have discovered I have the same problem after doing some fall clean up in the front locker AND I HAVE A LOT OF WATER UNDER THERE. I do not have the option of taking it to a Moomba dealer and I know Kojack installed a deck fill port at the bottom but how does a guy permanently fix this problem... where is the water coming from and if we do put a port access in and vacuum the water out are we getting all of it. Not to mention freezing in the winter and what it will do to the foam core.....for the winterization is vacuuming out the water enough? Any in put on this would be great, thanks guys! 2004 Mobius LSV

I think a lot of people have this issue and just don't realize it. The key is to lightly bounce up and down on one foot on the front part of the ski locker. Mine sounds and feels like it's completely full under there and probably is since there's about 4 years worth of lake/river water in there.

I see two options to drain the water - one is to do what kojack did and drill straight down at the rear most part of the ski locker, remove the foam, and put in an access hole. Then every so often, suck the water out.

Another option would be to remove the removable floor panels above the gas tank, remove the gas tank, and drill a hole horizontally into to the cavity under the ski locker, as close to the bottom as you can. Then the water will automatically drain into that area and out the back but water can also go in. Neither of these options is a permanent fix though. I think mnpracing is trying to get his permanently fixed. I'll be curious to know if (1) they get all the water out and (2) they are successful in preventing water from going back in.

I called the local dealer about this issue and talked to the service manager and he said that he used to own my exact boat and he had the same problem. He said he remembered wiping the ski locker dry and then when he stepped in it, water would come up thru several holes in the ski locker floor. He is going to call SC and see what they will do about my boat.

You bring up a good point about freeze damage if that cavity is full of water and it freezes. Luckily, I store my boat inside my garage and it never gets below freezing in there.

viking
10-20-2010, 04:42 PM
I'm just speculating but I'd guess that it is a problem with that model and many years of that model. I'm sure that many don't even recognize the issue at all and many it takes years to notice (much like a few on here), and some never will. A lot of Moomba owners are in a freezing climate and if it were an issue causing "structural integrity" then I would suggest it'd be more of an SC concern?

I personally wouldn't care for it as it'd be the cause of some musty smell at a minimum. Glad to know it's an issue as I might trade for an LSV model some day. This is something I'll look for on my next boat whatever the brand.

Point being............probably more a nuisance more than anything :(

mnpracing
10-20-2010, 06:09 PM
for freezing, I'm guessing that it pushes against the weakest spot. Meaning, the hull is stronger than the locker floor. When I look forward with my head in the locker, the locker floor appears to be bulged up from the front of the locker hatch all the way up to the bow. I'm speculating that the water froze and pushed up against the locker floor enough to permanently deform it.

T100
10-20-2010, 06:16 PM
cab13367 and viking you both made the same point about Skiers Choice, it should be a concern to them, do we not have a rep on this site to give us some in put on this issue. From what I can tell from the site this has been an issue with a lot of boat owners. This is the first winter with my boat and I don't want to go into winter with a hull full of water, water is not good for the "structural integrity" of the hull and the foam.

I'd be interested to see how many other guys have this same issue, check your front locker as part of your winterization.

Very interested to see how you guys make out with the Moomba dealers, keep us posted!

Canuckle Head
10-20-2010, 08:59 PM
Now I am totally sketched to check my ski locker...... This stinks as bad as the Canucks are playing right now!

you da man
10-20-2010, 11:01 PM
I wonder if this is an issue in the XLV? When you guys say ski locker are you referring to the center ballast sac locker as well or is that a different compartment altogether?

mnpracing
10-20-2010, 11:58 PM
you da man - it's the compartment with the ~ 3ft long door in the floor between the bow seating area and the main cabin area, right where the windshield middle section opens up. That's were my center ballast bag goes.

cab13367
10-21-2010, 12:08 AM
I wonder if this is an issue in the XLV? When you guys say ski locker are you referring to the center ballast sac locker as well or is that a different compartment altogether?

As deep as the ski locker is in the XLV, it might not have a false floor.

Grant M
10-21-2010, 01:26 AM
Did the ol bounce test in the center ballast on the 06 LSV and my what a lovely sloshing noise it made. I have to be honest here folks I'm a little ticked at this obvious defect in construction. The H2O is supposed to be kept on the outside not the inside!:mad:
I'll probably drill and suck it out and put a cover over the hole:mad:

98outback
10-21-2010, 09:36 AM
I have a 2003 supra launch ssv with the playpen seating and have the same problem in the
ski locker. SO apparently this problem goes back a couple more years.

Canuckle Head
10-21-2010, 01:14 PM
I wonder why SC has not responded to this issue? Or have they by not saying anything?:confused:

Razzman
10-21-2010, 02:27 PM
So after reading all of this and awaiting to see what SC has to say, I noticed some are going to just drill a hole and suck out the water. BUT if it's compartmentalized like Al (cab) is suggesting then that will not remove all the water nor will the saturated foam drain to that one location. The only way to tell will be to obtain a picture of the floor structure underneath to see what is actually going on.

I'm also with Al on this one to an extent. I'm guessing it's probably a fairly small area that's actually getting water as the hull is sloped and it's probably right down the middle. Wouldn't affect flotation enough to be a concern. Also doubt hull integrity would be an issue as bilges contstantly have water in them and it's the same construction. Who knows though. I'm sure it's in mine though but unless i see some proof of a real issue i'm not worrying about it.

I DO think SC needs to weigh in on this though and set owners at ease on the issue. SC where are you?

cab13367
10-21-2010, 02:39 PM
Here is a link to photos that someone took during their factory tour.

http://picasaweb.google.com/10144452...ersChoiceTour#

There's a couple in there of what the stringer structure looks like as well as one with it bonded to the hull. Not sure what boat that is exactly but if it's similar to how they do the other boats, it looks like the stringer system is fully boxed/enclosed so water is not getting in there. It also appears that the cavity under the ski locker is just one cavity, not multiple compartments. But I don't know that for sure.

If SC would please post a pic of what an 06+ LSV looks like below the ski locker (as well as other models that have posted on this thread with the same issue), I think that would alleviate a lot of concerns. If it's just one sealed compartment down there, and the only thing down there is floatation foam, then I am not too worried about it. I will just drill a hole, either at the top-rear of the locker and suck it our periodically or the bottom rear and let it flow into the gas tank compartment.

So how about it SC?

Grant M
10-21-2010, 04:11 PM
I found this link from the tour seemed to work.
I'm still uncertain how much of the bottom of the boat would be full of water.
http://picasaweb.google.com/101444528102814367861/SkiersChoiceTour#slideshow/5508666360170731026.

Can anyone clarify?

mnpracing
10-21-2010, 04:25 PM
Here is a picture taken from inside the locker looking to the bow. The spot right below the retangular white box (which has some really small printing as I was attempting to add a text box) is where the locker floor mates up with the hull. Right there is where there is a gap because it's not sealed to the hull. When a cup of water is poured in there, it seeps down to where the hole was cut in the locker floor in the first post of this thread. I'm not sure what that means regarding where the stringers are, but I guess that tells me that the water should all drain/seep down to that hole that is cut in the locker floor. We are still waiting for the dang thing to dry out. I'll be heading up to the shop tomorrow to take more pictures and check on progress.

http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab49/mnpracing/Boat/SkiLockerwaterissue.jpg

cab13367
10-21-2010, 04:31 PM
I found this link from the tour seemed to work.
I'm still uncertain how much of the bottom of the boat would be full of water.
http://picasaweb.google.com/101444528102814367861/SkiersChoiceTour#slideshow/5508666360170731026.

Can anyone clarify?

Thanks, I didn't realize my link didn't work. Those are the same pictures I was trying to link to.

These are the three of interest:

The caption identifies this as the stringer system:
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_H4yfOjtYIfM/THK1_FJbkQI/AAAAAAAAAeI/IGpqvVDi3go/s800/SC%20factory%20tour%20%2827%29.JPG

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_H4yfOjtYIfM/THK1_p45WjI/AAAAAAAAAeM/YGnOPBd2hgA/s800/SC%20factory%20tour%20%2828%29.JPG

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_H4yfOjtYIfM/THK2D8UiMxI/AAAAAAAAAeo/W-QQy8xV6L4/s800/SC%20factory%20tour%20%2834%29.JPG

cab13367
10-21-2010, 04:36 PM
Here is a picture taken from inside the locker looking to the bow. The spot right below the retangular white box (which has some really small printing as I was attempting to add a text box) is where the locker floor mates up with the hull. Right there is where there is a gap because it's not sealed to the hull. When a cup of water is poured in there, it seeps down to where the hole was cut in the locker floor in the first post of this thread. I'm not sure what that means regarding where the stringers are, but I guess that tells me that the water should all drain/seep down to that hole that is cut in the locker floor. We are still waiting for the dang thing to dry out. I'll be heading up to the shop tomorrow to take more pictures and check on progress.

http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab49/mnpracing/Boat/SkiLockerwaterissue.jpg

Yup., I think that is where mine is going in also. Good to know that water poured in there ran down to the back of the locker so at least we know it's one continuous compartment.

Grant M
10-21-2010, 04:40 PM
Thanks for posting those great forensic pics guys!
The stringer pic has me buffalo'd, but looking at the last two may mean that the water is confined to the front section under the ski locker in the bow - OR it may also contain water trapped along the sides???:confused:

It's just unfortunate SC didn't make allowances to have this drain under the gas tank to the bilge.

Grant M
10-21-2010, 04:55 PM
This picture may show more IMHO.
The bow drops down on the Bow side of the gas tank doesn't it?
Then this may show that it is just that sunken section that would be affected.

http://moomba.com/msgboard/picture.php?albumid=362&pictureid=3053

Canuckle Head
10-21-2010, 05:55 PM
Comments SC? Anything? Anything at all? Bueller?........ Bueller?.......... Bueller?........................Bueller?

mnpracing
10-21-2010, 05:58 PM
Canuckle - do you have this issue as well?

Canuckle Head
10-21-2010, 06:00 PM
Yes, yes I do. I wonder if warranty will cover this. Looks like I'll be towing her down to Portland back to AWS if that's the case.

T100
10-21-2010, 06:01 PM
Well this is sure a hot topic, it is currently being discussed in three different forums, service & repair, how to information and general chat.
I guess the bottom line is, especially for us guys up north - is there going to be damage to the boat from freezing and for others how do we fix the problem?
If we install a drain in the bottom of the boat, were and what kind? Are we all putting a port hole in the locker space and vacuuming water out on a constant bases??:confused:
Is there any one out there with some ideas on the to items I mentioned above??

Canuckle Head
10-21-2010, 06:05 PM
http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww30/wedeh/ben-stein1.jpg?t=1287695100

Bueller?............. Bueller?....................... Bueller?

Razzman
10-21-2010, 08:00 PM
Well this is sure a hot topic, it is currently being discussed in three different forums, service & repair, how to information and general chat.
I guess the bottom line is, especially for us guys up north - is there going to be damage to the boat from freezing and for others how do we fix the problem?
If we install a drain in the bottom of the boat, were and what kind? Are we all putting a port hole in the locker space and vacuuming water out on a constant bases??:confused:
Is there any one out there with some ideas on the to items I mentioned above??

I'll say this, a drain is not going to work for that locale. The water is trapped behind a bulkhead in essence and you can't install a drain in that region. A hole in the bulkhead may work to drain to bilge but it would have to be precision drilled to insure exact location. Problem there is if you have too much bilge water it can just run back through the drain hole and back into the bow, defeating the whole purpose. It would work pretty good for dripless shaft seal boats though.

The first path to a solution is to first figure out how it's getting into that area in the first place and address that. I've heard lots of speculation but no actual proof. Think about it, you drill a big ol' hole and install and access plate, suck all the water out and it just fills back up, how's it getting there? I seriously doubt a leaky cover would let that much water in unless you've got it sitting in downpours constantly.

I don't have a bag in that locker and i don't put wet things in there, it doesn't sit in the rain, covered or not, i don't take water over the bow and my dripless seal doesn't leak. So WHY is my locker always wet in there? I have no clue and have yet to figure out why but drilling holes is not solution guys. That foam can stay wet forever darn near. Just my opinion but if some of you guys are that worried about it I'd be pushing SC for an answer. If it's been an issue for years i'll gaurentee they have the answer.

mnpracing
10-21-2010, 09:36 PM
[QUOTE=cab13367;117013]Thanks, I didn't realize my link didn't work. Those are the same pictures I was trying to link to.

These are the three of interest:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_H4yfOjtYIfM/THK1_p45WjI/AAAAAAAAAeM/YGnOPBd2hgA/s800/SC%20factory%20tour%20%2828%29.JPG

I've milled this around in my mind for some time, and at the end of the day, the water could be entering that space anywhere around the perimeter of this black structure shell that is installed into the hull. It is supposedly sealed around the perimeter. If that seal is compromised anywhere along that perimeter, water can enter.
1. It could enter from the rear. Bilge water could seep under the rear of the area where I found the water when the boat slows down, either on the lake or on the trailer; the water sloshes forward and enters through a compromised seal.
2. It could enter from the sides. Rain water or lake water or drippy kid water could enter through a compromised seal on the sides of the black structure shell.
3. It could enter from the front, like I speculated in one of my other posts in this thread.

Bottom line, is that you couldn't guarantee that it was fixed unless you can inspect and reseal around the entire perimeter of that structure, which IMO is impossible without major teardown of the boat. So I'm hoping that the fix that is being implemented with my boat will work, but I'm not optimistic that the problem won't return.

On another note, I don't understand the design. Why is flotation foam needed? If it is indeed needed, why not mold this area into the main hull rather than "caulking" a piece of fiberglass to another piece of fiberglass and expecting that to last the life of the boat.

I'm actually wondering right now as I type this whether there is water under any of the other areas under this structure, like beneath the rear compartment floors or the areas under the seats along the sides of the boat??? Could that be a reason why my trailer hubs are showing an unusual amount of negative camber (extra weight being carried around)??

jmvotto
10-22-2010, 12:15 AM
crazy question. anyone weigh their boats to see what the current weight is vs the mfg stated weight is. you can adjust for a full tank of fuel, but that could be the tell tale sign of how much extra water is really sitting in the boats.

also, from this pic i am having a hard time understanding the void in the front of the ski locker, but this is on a 2010 or 2011 model i believe.

mnpracing
10-22-2010, 12:30 AM
crazy question. anyone weigh their boats to see what the current weight is vs the mfg stated weight is. you can adjust for a full tank of fuel, but that could be the tell tale sign of how much extra water is really sitting in the boats.

also, from this pic i am having a hard time understanding the void in the front of the ski locker, but this is on a 2010 or 2011 model i believe.

That pic is the top deck, so you don't see the black structure which is the layer of fiberglass between the top deck and the hull. The ski locker and the void is between the bottom two layers. The picture here is the top deck which has nothing to do with the locker or the hull.

jmvotto
10-22-2010, 12:40 AM
so that gets flipped over and sits on the black area in the pic above which sits on the hull. so the square area i thought was the ski locker is the walk thru in the bow?? got it.

Razzman
10-22-2010, 01:16 AM
On another note, I don't understand the design. Why is flotation foam needed? If it is indeed needed, why not mold this area into the main hull rather than "caulking" a piece of fiberglass to another piece of fiberglass and expecting that to last the life of the boat.

Because in order to meet Coast Guard requirements all mfgrs need to use flotation foam. If it wasn't for the foam your boat would sink if swamped.

Almost all mfgrs also use the modular design now as well. It's a common and accepted practice and has been for years to bond sections together.

mnpracing
10-22-2010, 10:26 AM
"Almost all"...who doesn't?

I cringe when I hear "common and accepted practice", especially when there is a history of problems. The shop that is doing my boat, didn't blink when I described the issue, they were nodding from the beginning. "It's not uncommon" was the response.

Doesn't matter if everyone's doing it. If you do it wrong, of if it's the wrong thing to do, little else matters....

Sorry, I don't buy that reasoning....

jmvotto
10-22-2010, 10:46 AM
looks like the only way water can get up and in there in either from spillage of the front bow sac and rolls forward , the bilge water running up from the stern to the bow thru the ski locker drain hole during start and stops or some poor seal around the floor in the bow from some rollers. since the deep v under the ski locker is the lowest point in the boat it will be hard to get rid of that water by normal draining... my .02

not sure why that part in not sealed as it looks like the locker is added to the stringers afterwards in the pic # 1


sc any time would be great to chime in.

kaneboats
10-22-2010, 11:07 AM
One of the things I liked best about the Outback was the plug under the front of the engine-- just about the lowest point on the hull. By Tues. after the weekend with the fans running there would not be a drop of water anywhere in the boat.

viking
10-22-2010, 11:15 AM
One of the things I liked best about the Outback was the plug under the front of the engine-- just about the lowest point on the hull. By Tues. after the weekend with the fans running there would not be a drop of water anywhere in the boat.

Sounds just like my routine :)

Razzman
10-22-2010, 11:44 AM
"Almost all"...who doesn't?

I cringe when I hear "common and accepted practice", especially when there is a history of problems. The shop that is doing my boat, didn't blink when I described the issue, they were nodding from the beginning. "It's not uncommon" was the response.

Doesn't matter if everyone's doing it. If you do it wrong, of if it's the wrong thing to do, little else matters....

Sorry, I don't buy that reasoning....

Sanger doesn't for one. Their boats are still 100% hand built including their proprietary rot-proof composite wood stringers, sub structures and floors. No modular build for them, check it out here (http://www.sangerboats.com/factory-tour-7-prepping-boat.html). Btw that is Scott Pellaton narrating who still holds the world record (1989) for the fastest man to barefoot at 135 mph (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmYsSW-EqYE)behind a dragboat, 60-130+ in less than 4 seconds.

I wouldn't say it's wrong since almost everyones doing it this way and SC's boats are the only ones i've heard of with the issue. I've been on at least 6 other boat forums for a number of years and i've never seen this issue come up anywhere but here. I've a couple of buddies with newer boats that are modular and they don't have this issue.

Malibu, Nautique, Centurion, Supreme, MB, Tigé are just a few that have been building this way for years. You may not buy the reasoning but it's the way it is and it's not going to change. What i wouldn't buy is why SC's boats have the issue.

mnpracing
10-22-2010, 11:58 AM
Sanger doesn't for one. Their boats are still 100% hand built including their proprietary rot-proof composite wood stringers, sub structures and floors. No modular build for them, check it out here (http://www.sangerboats.com/factory-tour-7-prepping-boat.html). Btw that is Scott Pellaton narrating who still holds the world record (1989) for the fastest man to barefoot at 135 mph (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmYsSW-EqYE)behind a dragboat, 60-130+ in less than 4 seconds.

I wouldn't say it's wrong since almost everyones doing it this way and SC's boats are the only ones i've heard of with the issue. I've been on at least 6 other boat forums for a number of years and i've never seen this issue come up anywhere but here. I've a couple of buddies with newer boats that are modular and they don't have this issue.

Malibu, Nautique, Centurion, Supreme, MB, Tigé are just a few that have been building this way for years. You may not buy the reasoning but it's the way it is and it's not going to change. What i wouldn't buy is why SC's boats have the issue.

I consider CAB, you, and others on this forum to be quite in tune with their boats and how they work, and several just discovered the issue after specifically looking for it. I wonder how many more are out there (other brands included) that don't yet know there's an issue.

Razzman
10-22-2010, 12:28 PM
Very well could be others with the same issues, if so they don't seem to be as prevelant imo. Besides the obvious issue at hand imo the first and foremost issue to be addressed is you guys up north and the possibility of freeze damage due to excess water in the hull. In your case, the ongoing repair, imo this is just a stop gap for this instance. Yeah they're getting the water out for now, but what happens next season if it gets in there again? If it is getting around the modular sub structure then the only way to correct it is to pull up the fllor plate and gas tank and re-seal all around there. You said they're going to cut a hole in the floor and seal up the bow gap which I think is a good thing but if that isn't the main culprit than your back to square one in the spring right?

Again SC REALLY needs to weigh in on this before this snowballs out of control and give the owners some answers here!

jmvotto
10-22-2010, 12:46 PM
Any of the Mods send this thread over to Rick T?


mine is in storage and i am now concerned....

DOCDRS
10-22-2010, 12:55 PM
I an curious if anyone with this problem has the dripless seal system?

jmvotto
10-22-2010, 12:58 PM
I an curious if anyone with this problem has the dripless seal system?

Don't all 07's and newer have the dripless seal?

brain_rinse
10-22-2010, 01:07 PM
I sent SC a note this morning calling attention to this thread. I don't know how they will choose to address it, if at all. But they are now aware of this conversation.

Razzman
10-22-2010, 01:19 PM
Don't all 07's and newer have the dripless seal?

Exactly, '07 and up.

DOCDRS
10-22-2010, 01:25 PM
Don't all 07's and newer have the dripless seal?

I Don't know what year did they make it standard equipment......can't acces manuals on my bb

T100
10-22-2010, 05:36 PM
Very well could be others with the same issues, if so they don't seem to be as prevelant imo. Besides the obvious issue at hand imo the first and foremost issue to be addressed is you guys up north and the possibility of freeze damage due to excess water in the hull. In your case, the ongoing repair, imo this is just a stop gap for this instance. Yeah they're getting the water out for now, but what happens next season if it gets in there again? If it is getting around the modular sub structure then the only way to correct it is to pull up the fllor plate and gas tank and re-seal all around there. You said they're going to cut a hole in the floor and seal up the bow gap which I think is a good thing but if that isn't the main culprit than your back to square one in the spring right?

Again SC REALLY needs to weigh in on this before this snowballs out of control and give the owners some answers here!

To get back on topic it seems the 03 to the 07 models have this problem, if someone from SC is reading all of this can they answer three main questions:
1. Where is the water coming from?
2. Can we some how drain the water past the gas tank area to the rear bilge?
3. If the water freezes under the locker, in the foam, will it create damage to the foam and hull?

Razzman
10-22-2010, 06:00 PM
Uh i think that was on topic. We can debate until hell freezes over but until we hear from a reliable source it really does no good to banter right?

T100
10-22-2010, 07:15 PM
Sorry, Razzman I high lighted yours because it is to the point of the hole thread.

Razzman
10-22-2010, 07:23 PM
No problem, I can see where this is going to be a hot topic until some resolution is offered!

cab13367
10-22-2010, 10:07 PM
I think that SC is carefully considering how to respond since they have already set a precedent by agreeing to pay to fix the issue for mnpracing at a cost of $1500, perhaps thinking that this was an anomaly. Now that many others are discovering the same issue and may want it fixed, this could get expensive for them.

Or maybe I'm all wet and they are just too busy.

Canuckle Head
10-23-2010, 12:36 AM
I bet right now they are hating the Internet. 20 years ago there would never have been a discussion like this taking place.

mnpracing
10-23-2010, 12:39 AM
I got a voicemail from the shop and ended up not going up to see the boat. They have not been able to do anything more than what I posted earlier because they are still waiting for the foam to dry out. Water is still seeping into the hole where they removed the foam. They shopvac it out, then wait for more to seep out of the foam. Then shopvac it, and repeat. I will talk to them again on Tuesday to check progress again. We didn't talk about alternatives today such as cutting another hole and/or trying to remove more foam, but we'll discuss that on Tuesday if it's still not dry. The hole they cut is roughly 6" X 6" so they could remove all the foam they could reach, through this hole. But I don't think that would help much unless they cut another hole, or multiple holes (which we'd like to stay away from if possible). So it's the waiting game, but wanted to post an update. Good guys to work with though, they called me vs me trying to get a hold of them.

Grant M
10-23-2010, 02:16 AM
Thanks for the update, I'm sure alot of us Northern folk are following this thread. I think that what your doing and the fella that mounted the access port with cap are on the right track. Since the hull is at it's deepest here I don't see how you could get it to drain into the bilge unless you elevate the bow quite a bit, vaccuming seems the only option. I would just like to thank everyone who is contributing to these threads as they are a wealth of info.:)

kaneboats
10-23-2010, 02:44 AM
Thanks for chiming in Grant, you got some great pics up. Everybody check out the pics. Tres cool!

Grant M
10-23-2010, 01:46 PM
Thanks for chiming in Grant, you got some great pics up. Everybody check out the pics. Tres cool!

Thanks Kaneboats, I just tried to capture the spirit of the thing...;)

T100
10-25-2010, 01:44 PM
I was looking at my owners manual of the diagram of the side view of the v-drives, it shows the break down of the inside of the boat. There is a large high lighted area under the locker and into the front of the boat, does any one know if that is a foam core (high lighted area)? This diagram also shows how deep the hull is past the gas tank and bilge area. The diagram is in the 2004 Owner Manual, Section IX Service & Maintenance P. 51, I was not able to post the picture of the diagram, with the pic's from Grant M & mnpracing plus this, maybe we can get a little closer to solving this water coming in and how to get rid of it. Please look at your manual and see what you think and if someone knows how to get the diagram onto the post that would be great.
Manual 2004
http://www.moomba.com/downloads/owner_manuals/moomba_04.pdf

moombahighrider
10-26-2010, 03:02 AM
So my boat has been winterized and put away for a couple of weeks now. Thanks to you guys and the legitimate issues you are seeing, I am now a bit concerned that I might have the same problem. We have really cold temps through the winter here and I am concerned about potential freezing issues and weakening/ damaging parts of the fibreglass. It does not help that SC don't feel this is important enough to say anything, one way or the other. It does make one wonder.....

saskyrider
10-26-2010, 11:44 AM
I drilled a small hole in my locker because when i was cleaning it out for the winter when i stepped in the locker water squirted up in a small spot about 6" ahead of the rear drain. Turns out the fiberglass was extremely thin there. When i used a hole saw to drill the hole as soon as i placed pressure on the drill bit it pushed through the fiberglass :mad: . I then proceeded to dig out a small patch of foam... not all the way down to the bottom but close and used the vacuum. the majority of the water i got was on top of the foam and not coming through it... i have to go to our farm tonight and will check to see if any seeped back in. I did let it sit for a day or 2 before i put it in storage and couldn't see any water that had accumulated after i used the shop vac....

Geoff

p.s. makes me a little queasy thinking about having water in the boat over winter!!!!

Grant M
10-28-2010, 02:20 AM
Well against my wifes wishes I too drilled an 1.5" hole in the bottom of the ski locker. I was able to vacuum out about 8 gallons so far and I know there's more in there. I have been just vacuuming the water from on top of the foam and I'll wait and see how it goes and then decide if I go down to the hull itself.
On a less positive note I may now have to hook up a bow ballast bag with all that water gone:rolleyes:

Canuckle Head
10-28-2010, 04:29 PM
Well against my wifes wishes I too drilled an 1.5" hole in the bottom of the ski locker. I was able to vacuum out about 8 gallons so far and I know there's more in there. I have been just vacuuming the water from on top of the foam and I'll wait and see how it goes and then decide if I go down to the hull itself.
On a less positive note I may now have to hook up a bow ballast bag with all that water gone:rolleyes:

Man, that's about 67lbs of weight! And, what happens the next time you put it back in the water?

Razzman
10-28-2010, 04:38 PM
Man, that's about 67lbs of weight! And, what happens the next time you put it back in the water?

Exactly what i asked earlier in this thread! Unless this is corrected the proper way what do you do? Cut holes every year looking for water? I can't help but wonder what happens to the foam when frozen then thawed?

DOCDRS
10-28-2010, 06:19 PM
I'm not getting a warm and fuzzy feeling about all this.........

Grant M
10-28-2010, 06:46 PM
I'm not getting a warm and fuzzy feeling about all this.........

I totally agree with you but what do you do?
Myself I think that Kojack has the solution http://moomba.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=13064
Install the access port and vacuum the water out every fall before you put the boat away. What this will do to the bouancy foam long term I don't know?
I just didn't want to put her away for the winter with all that water there.
Is the permanent solution to lift the carpet and cut an access so that you can fiberglass the hole at the front of the ski locker where the stringer meets the hull maybe???:confused:

cab13367
10-28-2010, 07:40 PM
Exactly what i asked earlier in this thread! Unless this is corrected the proper way what do you do? Cut holes every year looking for water? I can't help but wonder what happens to the foam when frozen then thawed?

Razz,

You might have missed mnpracing's post wherein he indicated where he thinks the water is coming from on his boat, and that is at the very front of the ski locker where the false floor or liner does not mate up with the hull. After looking at my ski locker, I think that's where the water is coming in as well. Another said that when he stepped in his ski locker, water came up thru a hole about 6" forward of the rear drain. So it appears that water is getting down there in different ways, depending on the boat.

Also, again on one of mnpracing's post, the shop is going to cut an access hole in the floor in the bow area in order to access the front of the locker and seal that gap. So hopefully, that will be a permanent fix for mnpracing's boat.

Others are just trying to get some of the water out to prevent possible freeze damage and waiting to hear what SC has to say about the issue.

My boat is stored in my garage which never gets below freezing since the furnace is in the garage and right next to the boat so I haven't drilled any holes yet. My local dealer has contacted SC on my behalf so I am waiting to hear what SC has to say.

cab13367
10-28-2010, 09:13 PM
I'm not getting a warm and fuzzy feeling about all this.........

Do you have this issue doc?

DOCDRS
10-28-2010, 09:51 PM
no idea, maybe next time i go up north i'll check.....but I never get water over the bow and my boat is on a lift in a boat port 99% of the time, except for this early fall when i had it home and it rained cats n dogs for the week 2 weeks i had it in my driveway.....but it was covered....so I think any water would have come from the back bilge up forward , I know I have ended up with water in my locker from this........

mnpracing
10-28-2010, 10:13 PM
no idea, maybe next time i go up north i'll check.....but I never get water over the bow and my boat is on a lift in a boat port 99% of the time, except for this early fall when i had it home and it rained cats n dogs for the week 2 weeks i had it in my driveway.....but it was covered....so I think any water would have come from the back bilge up forward , I know I have ended up with water in my locker from this........

Hey guys, quick update. What I assume is happening is that water from the ski locker runs forward as the boat is stopped, either when powering down on the water or from braking when on the trailer. This water that runs forward goes all the way to the front of the locker (which is a slight taper uphill) then runs back; when it runs back it goes through that gap between the hull and the locker floor. Water has gotten into my locker from several things: water over the bow, wet kid drippings, ballast bag fitting leaks, priming the ballast pumps (many times I disconnect the fill line when I'm trying to get the pumps flowing so a little sprays into the locker). BUT, my hypothesis is that there are more gaps between the hull and stringer structure than just at the bow. My hypothesis (that I posted earlier in this thread) is that water is getting under the stringer system (that's what I'm calling the black structure from the factory tour pics) at different places around the perimeter. I'm including in the perimeter the engine compartment and the v-drive compartment; the rear lockers appear to be sitting atop part of this structure as well. Once water gets under there, when it runs forward it lands in that low spot under the ski locker.

The shop called today to say that they will likely be done sometime tomorrow. I haven't gone to look at it since the pics I posted earlier. They didn't vary from the plan we talked about at that time. It took almost two weeks for it to dry out after cutting the hole in the locker floor. So what I expect the final product to be is a newly re-glassed and gel-coated locker, a sealed gap between the hull and front of locker, and an access panel in the carpet in the bow area (that they needed in order to reach the gap in the hull and locker floor). I'll post some pics once I get the boat back home, which will be this weekend hopefully. I will definitely be checking for the return of this issue next season. I sure hope this permanently fixes it....

kaneboats
10-28-2010, 10:16 PM
Even if some water in there freezes it won't necessarily do any damage. It's possible, but if you understand what about freezing does the damage you understand what the danger is. When the water does not have room to expand, it will still expand when it freezes and that's how blocks get cracked, etc. In an enclosed space full of foam I would suspect that the water has a little room to expand when it freezes-- into the empty space in the compartment and possibly compressing the foam as well. But, it's a theory I wouldn't want to test with my boat and don't think anyone else does either.

Razzman
10-29-2010, 12:48 AM
Razz,

You might have missed mnpracing's post wherein he indicated where he thinks the water is coming from on his boat, and that is at the very front of the ski locker where the false floor or liner does not mate up with the hull. After looking at my ski locker, I think that's where the water is coming in as well. Another said that when he stepped in his ski locker, water came up thru a hole about 6" forward of the rear drain. So it appears that water is getting down there in different ways, depending on the boat.

Also, again on one of mnpracing's post, the shop is going to cut an access hole in the floor in the bow area in order to access the front of the locker and seal that gap. So hopefully, that will be a permanent fix for mnpracing's boat.

Others are just trying to get some of the water out to prevent possible freeze damage and waiting to hear what SC has to say about the issue.

My boat is stored in my garage which never gets below freezing since the furnace is in the garage and right next to the boat so I haven't drilled any holes yet. My local dealer has contacted SC on my behalf so I am waiting to hear what SC has to say.

I saw that Al but i'm not buying that that's where it's coming from unless you have loads of water in your ski locker. These boats sit with a nose up attitude which would prevent the water from getting all the way up to the nose. I've seen this same gap in the bow on mine as well. I bedlinered the ski locker floor early this year and saw it then.

What i want to know is why is that gap there? What is it's intended purpose?

mnpracing, where exactly are they cutting this hole for access to the bow void? By my calculations that area in question should be directly under the bow nose cushion. I'm not sure but I swear i've seen that void under my carpet beneath that cushion. If so that sure wouldn't require cutting a hole in the floor to fix. Might be worth looking at before they cut yet another hole.

cab13367
10-29-2010, 01:37 AM
I saw that Al but i'm not buying that that's where it's coming from unless you have loads of water in your ski locker. These boats sit with a nose up attitude which would prevent the water from getting all the way up to the nose. I've seen this same gap in the bow on mine as well. I bedlinered the ski locker floor early this year and saw it then.

What i want to know is why is that gap there? What is it's intended purpose?

mnpracing, where exactly are they cutting this hole for access to the bow void? By my calculations that area in question should be directly under the bow nose cushion. I'm not sure but I swear i've seen that void under my carpet beneath that cushion. If so that sure wouldn't require cutting a hole in the floor to fix. Might be worth looking at before they cut yet another hole.

Razz,

I tend to have a lot of water in my ski locker because I have had had a steady stream of water coming from my shaft seal most of the year. Even after I changed out the packing, I was still getting a steady stream (I never did get that adjusted right). This water finds it's way into the ski locker and when I take the boat off plane after a rider falls that water surges forward and goes down in that hole. I also used to have a leak in the ski locker bag fill hose line which contributed to the water in the ski locker.

I don't know why the gap is there - it looks to me that they didn't make that piece correctly so it isn't flush with the hull at the front. There is no "intended purpose". The gap should not be there, period.

And no, the area in question is not under the front seat cushion. It's UNDER the floor of the boat so the only way to access it is to cut a hole thru the floor.

Al

mcdye
10-29-2010, 08:58 AM
'10 LSV. I decide to look at the layout of my locker, it appears they may have changed the mold or not cutting the tip off any more.

squeeg333
10-29-2010, 01:39 PM
Mcdye, looks like you're in the clear, at least in the clear as far as the "hole" in the front of the ski locker.

I think it's interesting - we're 8 pages of posts into this issue, and not one word from SC? Even after they were notified about it, numerous times?? What gives man? I mean, sure, if the newer models are slightly different design, and appear to not have the issue, okay. But what about us with older boats, who are or could be experiencing this problem?

We on this board represent only a small portion of Moomba and Supra owners, so I can only imagine how many boats out there are seeing this issue. I could see, how Kane explained, that the extra room in the hull area will allow the water to expand and compress the foam without doing any damage, but, I am kind of under the impression that this foam is a rigid type, and not necessarily meant to be repeatedly compressed... and I also agree that I don't really want my hull to be the 'experiement'. Though, it saw freezing temps last winter in storage, and no obvious damage seen - but I am still not sure if I've got the issue yet. Though, obviously, 08's have it too.

**Correctiong - 9 pages of posts in!**

Canuckle Head
10-29-2010, 03:51 PM
I'm not overly impressed by their lack of response either. :mad:

T100
10-29-2010, 03:54 PM
I agree squeeg333.

I'm really starting to think an automatic bilge pump installed in this location is the answer. Remove enough foam core to the bottom of the boat, install a 4" PVC pipe with hole's on the bottom or some kind of stainless steel cylinder screen, bracket the pump to the pipe or screen or a sump box may also work.
A Tsunami Cartridge Bilge Pump 500 GPH would do the job.
Wire it back to the dash and plum the bilge out the side of the boat. Install a 4" screw - out deck plate in the locker to maintain the pump.

mk_deuce
10-29-2010, 04:02 PM
Just to add, my 07 LSV does this exact same thing. My water came from a 2 hr rain storm pulling the boat home @ purchase. I can actually "almost" get my body into the ski locker on my left side & press into the floor w/ my elbow & see water coming up through the front of the locker like a geyser!

mnpracing
10-29-2010, 04:56 PM
1. mnpracing - 08 LSV
2. cab13367 - 06 LSV
3. T100 - 04 LSV (same hull as 06-08 OBV)
4. Canuckle Head - 07 OBV (same hull as 04 LSV)
5. GrantM - 06 LSV
6. 09outback - 03 Launch SSV
7. saskyrider - 05 LSV (same hull as 06-08 OBV)
8. mk_deuce - 07 LSV
9. Kojack -

Did I miss anyone?

cab13367
10-29-2010, 07:58 PM
Well, I got this e-mail from my dealer this morning who heard back from SC:

"The answer was that it is not a structural issue that would be covered under the limited lifetime warranty of the hull, so it will not be covered under warranty."

What I don't understand is why they agreed to cover mnpracing's boat but not mine, especially when mnp bought his boat used and I bought mine new (no offense mnpracing).

cab13367
10-29-2010, 08:06 PM
http://moomba.com/msgboard/attachment.php?attachmentid=6774&d=1288353394


'10 LSV. I decide to look at the layout of my locker, it appears they may have changed the mold or not cutting the tip off any more.

mcdye,

Looks like they fixed this issue in 2010. That looks nice and clean, the way it should have been done in the first place. Compare that to mine which has a bunch of caulk/sealant between the hull and the floor, and strips of hastily placed fiberglass cloth in a half-assed attempt to seal the liner to the hull. It's hard to see here but there is a large gap between the fiberglass cloth and the hull at the very front of the liner. I wish they would have spent the extra 5 minutes and sealed that hole properly.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg276/cab13367/IMG_2459.jpg

Canuckle Head
10-30-2010, 12:45 AM
Well, I got this e-mail from my dealer this morning who heard back from SC:

"The answer was that it is not a structural issue that would be covered under the limited lifetime warranty of the hull, so it will not be covered under warranty."

What I don't understand is why they agreed to cover mnpracing's boat but not mine, especially when mnp bought his boat used and I bought mine new (no offense mnpracing).

Not a structural issue? I guess they designed it to hold water in there then... Yeah, yeah, that's it. It's supposed to hold 60+ Lbs of stagnant water. Makes the boat float and smell better........:rolleyes:

trevormcfar
10-30-2010, 01:14 AM
I read the entire post... is this a problem with XLV's as well???? someone did ask the question, but no one really answered? Please PM me....

T100
10-30-2010, 01:29 AM
1. mnpracing - 08 LSV
2. cab13367 - 06 LSV
3. T100 - 04 LSV (same hull as 06-08 OBV)
4. Canuckle Head - 07 OBV (same hull as 04 LSV)
5. GrantM - 06 LSV
6. 09outback - 03 Launch SSV
7. saskyrider - 05 LSV (same hull as 06-08 OBV)
8. mk_deuce - 07 LSV
9. Kojack -

Did I miss anyone?

This list has just started, I'm sure more to come!

Grant M
10-30-2010, 02:54 AM
If it's not a hull design defect - then why did they redesign the hull stringer to alleviate the problem then???:confused:

Canuckle Head
10-31-2010, 01:30 AM
If it's not a hull design defect - then why did they redesign the hull stringer to alleviate the problem then???:confused:

Ding! We have a winner!

mnpracing
10-31-2010, 09:38 PM
Here are some pictures of the work that was done (at least of what you can see). The deck hatch was needed in order to access the very front of the ski locker to fill in the gap between the hull and locker floor. I've posted the before and after so you can see where they applied more fiberglass matting and resin to fill in this area.

In the main part of the locker, they reglassed and gelcoated the locker. It's very shiny, and is textured a bit. I only mention this because it is different than what the factory did.

Time will tell if this will be a permanent fix.


Here is the "before" picture:
http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab49/mnpracing/Boat/SkiLockerwaterissue.jpg

Here are the "after" pictures; you can see where they added fiberglass:
http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab49/mnpracing/Boat/IMG_3486.jpg
http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab49/mnpracing/Boat/IMG_3485.jpg

mnpracing
10-31-2010, 09:39 PM
Here's the deck plate that was installed in order to access the very front of the ski locker:
http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab49/mnpracing/Boat/IMG_3487.jpg
http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab49/mnpracing/Boat/IMG_3489.jpg


Here's the main part of the ski locker, with the hole patched, re-glassed, and gelcoated:
http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab49/mnpracing/Boat/IMG_3483.jpg
http://i848.photobucket.com/albums/ab49/mnpracing/Boat/IMG_3496.jpg

harmsway
10-31-2010, 11:18 PM
I have recently purchased a '08 Mobius LS. Does this seem to be a problem with just v-drive or has anyone had this problem with the direct-drive? The hull design does seem to be simular.

cab13367
10-31-2010, 11:43 PM
That looks great! Hope that takes care of the issue for good.

Too bad SC will not do this for all of us.

Also, I see a couple of potential uses for the deck plate: (1) if your front bag has a third (vent) hole, you could use it to access and vent air out of the bag and (2) you could install a flush table leg mount.

Razzman
11-01-2010, 12:52 PM
OK so a couple thoughts here. While i applaud SC for getting mnpracing's issues handled, i'm not a fan of the deck access plate in the bow walkway. I can see that being an issue in some circumstances, not to mention (to me) it looks out of place there.

I can think of a couple of different ways that could have been handled without having to add the access plate. All would have been more work or harder to accomplish so i understand why SC had it done this way to an extent.

But i guess the bottom line is how the owner perceives it and is he happy with the repair and end results.

On another note to everyone else with this issue, anyone can do this repair as shown themselves as well. Working with fiberglass (as shown) is not that hard for one and installing the access plate in the composition floor is easy. So if anyone wants it done and SC won't cover it don't be afraid to tackle it yourself or get some help from someone who's worked with 'glass before.

cab13367
11-01-2010, 02:20 PM
I can think of a couple of different ways that could have been handled without having to add the access plate.

I am all ears. I have looked this over and I don't see how to access that part of the locker any other way. There isn't enough room to get to it from the ski locker.

Razzman
11-01-2010, 02:45 PM
Well my first thought after looking at it would be to do it like the existing floor access panels;

Cut away carpet where access is needed
Trim carpet back at all corners and fold back
Cut opening in comp floor
Route a recessed lip all the way around opening
Lay carpet back down and adhese around opening edges
Cut aluminum plate to fit opening
Drill holes into plate to secure to lip
Cover plate with carpet and secure
Another method SC could do would be to manufacture a dam from their molds that could be pushed up from the locker into the void and sealed using asphalt roofing sealer. This could be done, i've seen trickier done before.

cab13367
11-01-2010, 05:25 PM
Well my first thought after looking at it would be to do it like the existing floor access panels;

Cut away carpet where access is needed
Trim carpet back at all corners and fold back
Cut opening in comp floor
Route a recessed lip all the way around opening
Lay carpet back down and adhese around opening edges
Cut aluminum plate to fit opening
Drill holes into plate to secure to lip
Cover plate with carpet and secure
Another method SC could do would be to manufacture a dam from their molds that could be pushed up from the locker into the void and sealed using asphalt roofing sealer. This could be done, i've seen trickier done before.

Good idea. That would look good as long as it's done right. That's the way SC did the access panel for the second drain plug under the gas tank on the newer LSV's except that it has a ring pull on it and it's not screwed down but that's because it has to be accessed frequently.

Although, I'm not sure the routed recessed lip would be strong enough. Might have to screw in some flat stock of aluminum instead.

Al

cab13367
11-01-2010, 05:27 PM
Well my first thought after looking at it would be to do it like the existing floor access panels;

Cut away carpet where access is needed
Trim carpet back at all corners and fold back
Cut opening in comp floor
Route a recessed lip all the way around opening
Lay carpet back down and adhese around opening edges
Cut aluminum plate to fit opening
Drill holes into plate to secure to lip
Cover plate with carpet and secure
Another method SC could do would be to manufacture a dam from their molds that could be pushed up from the locker into the void and sealed using asphalt roofing sealer. This could be done, i've seen trickier done before.

Good idea. That would look good as long as it's done right. That's the way SC did the access panel for the second drain plug under the gas tank on the newer LSV's except that it has a ring pull on it and it's not screwed down but that's because it has to be accessed frequently.

Although, I'm not sure the routed recessed lip would be strong enough. Might have to screw in some flat stock of aluminum instead. And that way, you could just use the piece that you cut out as the cover plate.

Al

Razzman
11-01-2010, 06:01 PM
Although, I'm not sure the routed recessed lip would be strong enough. Might have to screw in some flat stock of aluminum instead. And that way, you could just use the piece that you cut out as the cover plate.

Al

If i'm not mistaken that's exactly how the current floor access panels are now, just a recessed lip in the floor. I think i saw a pic somewhere but can't remember. Because it doesn't have to be that big (6x6 or 8x8) a 1/4" deep x 1/4" wide route to accomodate an 1/8" plate plus carpet and it should be flush.

Razzman
11-01-2010, 06:08 PM
I blew up mpnracings pic here. You can see the thickness of the floor, it's plenty thick to accomodate that idea. Looks to be 3/4"-1" material.

moombadaze
11-01-2010, 06:32 PM
Just great, now when i get home im going to have to get up in there and check it out as its been towed thru monsoon rains, sat in monsoon rain sorms while out boating-this is florida and a hour later the sun could be back out, had water over the bow-more than once, and had a faulty drain pump on the 750lb bag so i just drained it in the bilge.

I am a little suprised at no response from SC.

Razzman
11-01-2010, 06:42 PM
I am a little suprised at no response from SC.

As are many others!

mnpracing
11-01-2010, 06:45 PM
For the thickness of the floor where the deck plate is, I'll measure it tonight. My guess at the time was < 1/2".

As for the access port over the gas tank in the 2011's, it's an aluminum square the same thickness as the aluminum floor covers. It's roughly 1" thick (plate welded to square tubing), and there is bracing where this deck cover sits so that it is flush with the floor. It just pressure fits from the carpet glued to the top and sides of the roughly 6" X 6" cover.

cab13367
11-01-2010, 07:46 PM
If i'm not mistaken that's exactly how the current floor access panels are now, just a recessed lip in the floor. I think i saw a pic somewhere but can't remember. Because it doesn't have to be that big (6x6 or 8x8) a 1/4" deep x 1/4" wide route to accomodate an 1/8" plate plus carpet and it should be flush.

Razz,

Below is probably the pic you are thinking of (it's my pic). The access panels rest on the stringer sytem.

What you are proposing will probably work but if I was to do this, I would screw in some aluminum flat stock just to be sure.

Al

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg276/cab13367/IMG_6349.jpg

Razzman
11-01-2010, 08:03 PM
Yeah that's the pic i remembered, thanks Al. I'm sure with a little bit more thought this could easily be done and still provide adequate support.

So I was thinking a deck plate type setup with an aluminum frame that sits in the hole, floor routed slightly to sit flush and under carpet. And instead of the deck plate door, an aluminum recessed cover (carpeted) sitting flush also. Support and strength. hmmmm.

I know someone who welds and fabs, i may have to talk with him about fabbing a frame up to see.

cab13367
11-01-2010, 08:51 PM
Yeah that's the pic i remembered, thanks Al. I'm sure with a little bit more thought this could easily be done and still provide adequate support.

So I was thinking a deck plate type setup with an aluminum frame that sits in the hole, floor routed slightly to sit flush and under carpet. And instead of the deck plate door, an aluminum recessed cover (carpeted) sitting flush also. Support and strength. hmmmm.

I know someone who welds and fabs, i may have to talk with him about fabbing a frame up to see.

So I take it you have this issue also, or you thinking hypothetically here?

moombadaze
11-01-2010, 09:10 PM
Add me to the list :mad: :mad:.

Pulled the ballast bag out of the ski locker-the bag was wet on the bottom yet when I put the boat away about a month and half ago it was dry. Standing/bouncing on the ski locker floor I can hear air escaping--sounds like its weezing really. When kneeling inbetween the bow seats and sticking my head down in there and wiggleing the boat I can hear it sloshing underneath.

FYI- 2 weeks ago I filled the gas tank with gas for its winter hibernation, so im 99% sure its not what im hearing.

Looking up forwards it looks like the floor and hull have enough sealant so im thinking its getting someplace else.

I had the floor out last year when i was adding my depth finder and there was standing water under the gas tank-just thought I would mention that

mnpracing
11-01-2010, 10:25 PM
1. mnpracing - 08 LSV
2. cab13367 - 06 LSV
3. T100 - 04 LSV (same hull as 06-08 OBV)
4. Canuckle Head - 07 OBV (same hull as 04 LSV)
5. GrantM - 06 LSV
6. 09outback - 03 Launch SSV
7. saskyrider - 05 LSV (same hull as 06-08 OBV)
8. mk_deuce - 07 LSV
9. Kojack -
10. Moombadaze - 08 LSV


Added Moombadaze

brain_rinse
11-01-2010, 10:31 PM
Add me to the list too.

mnpracing
11-01-2010, 10:55 PM
1. mnpracing - 08 LSV
2. cab13367 - 06 LSV
3. T100 - 04 LSV (same hull as 06-08 OBV)
4. Canuckle Head - 07 OBV (same hull as 04 LSV)
5. GrantM - 06 LSV
6. 09outback - 03 Launch SSV
7. saskyrider - 05 LSV (same hull as 06-08 OBV)
8. mk_deuce - 07 LSV
9. Kojack -
10. Moombadaze - 08 LSV
11. brain_rinse - 08 LSV


Added brain_rinse

Razzman
11-01-2010, 10:59 PM
So I take it you have this issue also, or you thinking hypothetically here?

Hypothetically, BUT i have also noticed water in my locker as well when i know none should be there. I'm pulling mine out Saturday and taking to the lake to get it hot to change the oil, I'll check then. I won't be suprised if i do though. :rolleyes:

T100
11-01-2010, 11:21 PM
I'm really having a tough time with all this water "under" our ski lockers coming from rain water over time. I have a great cover and have not put water over my bow once this year. I have not drilled a hole as of yet because I'm still reading to see the out come of this issue.
Could the water be coming from under the gas tank in the older boats that do not have a drain plug under the gas tank??? Am I missing something here??

wilemobius
11-01-2010, 11:24 PM
Add me to the list as well! 06 lsv

mnpracing
11-01-2010, 11:26 PM
I'm really having a tough time with all this water "under" our ski lockers coming from rain water over time. I have a great cover and have not put water over my bow once this year. I have not drilled a hole as of yet because I'm still reading to see the out come of this issue.
Could the water be coming from under the gas tank in the older boats that do not have a drain plug under the gas tank??? Am I missing something here??

T100 - look at post #76 of this thread. I'm thinking that water can, and is, entering anywhere that the black stringer structure is not sealed to the hull properly. So to extrapolate your comment above, water that is below the gas tank could be sloshing forward though a void in the sealant between the hull and the stringer structure, and then it settles below the ski locker because that is the lowest point in the boat.

mnpracing
11-01-2010, 11:28 PM
1. mnpracing - 08 LSV
2. cab13367 - 06 LSV
3. T100 - 04 LSV (same hull as 06-08 OBV)
4. Canuckle Head - 07 OBV (same hull as 04 LSV)
5. GrantM - 06 LSV
6. 09outback - 03 Launch SSV
7. saskyrider - 05 LSV (same hull as 06-08 OBV)
8. mk_deuce - 07 LSV
9. Kojack -
10. Moombadaze - 08 LSV
11. brain_rinse - 08 LSV
12. wilemobius - 06 LSV


Added wilemobius

T100
11-02-2010, 11:06 PM
Thanks mnpracing,

So this is what I decided to do to get the water out for the winter. As soon as I started to drill water came flowing out and a lot of it. Water was right to the top. I went with the larger 6" access hole to shop vac the water out.

Water is still leaking out as I covered up the boat, I'll vacuum more out tomorrow.

Canuckle Head
11-02-2010, 11:43 PM
But it's not a defect though.............:confused:

mnpracing
11-03-2010, 12:13 AM
Thanks mnpracing,

So this is what I decided to do to get the water out for the winter. As soon as I started to drill water came flowing out and a lot of it. Water was right to the top. I went with the larger 6" access hole to shop vac the water out.

Water is still leaking out as I covered up the boat, I'll vacuum more out tomorrow.

T100 - how thick was the floor where you drilled through? Also, where did you get that deck plate cover? Do you have a link or a part number?

zabooda
11-03-2010, 02:48 AM
Those are marine inspection covers that you can get at most marine supply stores.

moombadaze
11-03-2010, 08:25 AM
T100, was it holllow under the ski locker floor-no foam?

T100
11-03-2010, 12:17 PM
The floor was just over an 1/8 of an inch thick, I bought the marine inspection cover from my local boat shop for $12.00, I can get the number off the box later day, it's in the boat.
The foam was to the top of the ski locker floor, there was maybe an 1/8 of an inch between the two in some places, maybe because of freezing in the previous year I did not own the boat??
I drilled through the ski locker, then two depths of the hole saw (very carefully the second depth), I used a utility knife and cut it like a pie to remove the foam each time. I tried to keep it as clean as possible.
Just as a side note, after taking the majority of the water out, water kept coming from the rear of the boat. The foam is saturated with water and I am not sure it will be completely dry by the time I put her away for the winter. I am going to buy a couple of moisture removers from the boat shop.(Not sure what they are called)

I can tell you now that a have done this I have peace of mind over the winter !

Skiers Choice, come on, there is something obviously not right here. My front hull would have been an ice block as big as the entire foam core and more.

DOCDRS
11-03-2010, 12:37 PM
Thanks mnpracing,

So this is what I decided to do to get the water out for the winter. As soon as I started to drill water came flowing out and a lot of it. Water was right to the top. I went with the larger 6" access hole to shop vac the water out.

Water is still leaking out as I covered up the boat, I'll vacuum more out tomorrow.

thats a nice clean job. I think this is prob the fix as water may be coming from the back of the boat, bilge into this area

moombabound
11-03-2010, 12:41 PM
I'd pretty much signed off this forum due to switching seasonal interests, but with a few day break from hockey, thought I'd take a boo.
All thirteen pages of this thread later:

1. We have an issue. I have yet to read that it has caused a problem.
2. Where I live it gets so cold that Celsius meets Farenheit. That ain't no Rodney Dangerfieldizm. Point being that at ambient temperatures lower than thirty below, if this issue was causing freezing damage, you would have heard it on this forum from local folks.
3. When Grant pulled out 8 gallons and was still only sucking the surface, that's what got my attention. Despite the point in one post about there being some give in areas allowing for expansion, with that amount of water I don't think there would be enough expansion room.
3. the absence of any info directly from SC injected into this thread suggests:
A. Yep, it's an issue.
B. Too risky for them to comment; they are staying out of it.
4. I appreciate the handiness of many Forum members. I have a 45 yr old special interest car and I expect this kind of chatter (home made remedies to alleviate mfr design flaws) on THAT forum, but this is a modern day issue on assets we are paying tidy sums for.

Got my interest; will stay tuned. Mine's stowed away for the season, so can't check it.


Now I am totally sketched to check my ski locker...... This stinks as bad as the Canucks are playing right now!

(Canucklehead...your Canucks must follow this forum. They're at the top of their division now, with the Oilers at the bottom).

Canuckle Head
11-03-2010, 02:23 PM
(Canucklehead...your Canucks must follow this forum. They're at the top of their division now, with the Oilers at the bottom).

Yeah, that was a pretty good game last night. Go Torres! :D

Maybe Skiers Chioce will pull their heads out of their behinds and respond to the issue. Thinking I may sell the boat if this is how they treat loyal customers. :-( I love my Moomba but this is crap.

cab13367
11-03-2010, 02:32 PM
I have yet to read that it has caused a problem.


I think this is the jist of Skier's Choice's position - yes, there is water down there but there has been no damage caused by it so it doesn't fall under their structural warranty. I think the water is expanding to fill the void down there and then it pushes up on the ski locker floor since this is obviously the structure put not enough to cause any visible structural damage.

Not saying I agree, that's just my interpretation from my selling dealer's response and SC's response thru my local dealer.

cab13367
11-03-2010, 02:34 PM
Thanks mnpracing,

So this is what I decided to do to get the water out for the winter. As soon as I started to drill water came flowing out and a lot of it. Water was right to the top. I went with the larger 6" access hole to shop vac the water out.

Water is still leaking out as I covered up the boat, I'll vacuum more out tomorrow.

Nice work! Just one question - why did you not drill the hole further back in the locker? Seems that would be the low point within the locker so you would want to suck the water from there.

T100
11-03-2010, 03:00 PM
I went with that location of the hole because when I looking at the belly of the boat that was the lowest point in the dip of the bow under the boat. As I shop vac-ed the water out, I raised and lowered the bow of the boat to get the flow of the water to move. That is why I noted the water was surprisingly coming from the rear of the boat after the majority of the water was vacuumed out.
DOCDRS I am considering installing a bilge pump, that is way I went with the 6" access hole.

Canuckle Head
11-03-2010, 03:04 PM
I went with that location of the hole because when I looking at the belly of the boat that was the lowest point in the dip of the bow under the boat. As I shop vac-ed the water out, I raised and lowered the bow of the boat to get the flow of the water to move. That is why I noted the water was surprisingly coming from the rear of the boat after the majority of the water was vacuumed out.
DOCDRS I am considering installing a bilge pump, that is want I went with the 6" access hole.

How much water was in the hold?

Razzman
11-03-2010, 03:39 PM
Cheap overstock deck plates here (http://www.beckson.com/osdp.html).

While i don't typically see freezing temps where this could cause an expansion issue, i do see another issue that could be as big an issue in the warmer climes. Basically moisture.

This spring i pulled the boat from storage and i had mildew on the sundeck vinyl and along the top of the rear seat. In other words only in areas close to the factory cover.

When i pulled up the cover it was wet under it, in fact it had growth on the underside! Not only did i have to totally clean the vinyl, i had to scour the cover as well. Now i know 100% that there was nothing wet in the boat, the bilge was dry and i had moisture packets in. I also know 100% the boat didn't get wet. I also know 100% that the factory Atwood covers are made from poly/cotton material and don't breath worth a damn. So where did the moisture come from?

I'm willing to make a solid bet it came from the trapped water in the bow. I will know for sure Saturday when i winterize if i have the issue or not but it only makes sense, where else would it have come from.

So for everyone with the issue and in warmer climes you could end up with the very same issue.

Razzman
11-03-2010, 03:40 PM
mpnracing, did you get a chance to measure the floor thickness where they installed the deck plate?

T100
11-03-2010, 03:45 PM
How much water was in the hold?

I vacuumed out at lest 12 L / 2.64 gallons, not to mention what my shammy (ShamWow) sucked up as I was drilling.

mnpracing
11-03-2010, 03:51 PM
Razzman - I didn't even think to measure it when it was open :( Although they put an extra layer of fiberglass matting over the main part of the locker as you can see in the pics earlier in the thread, so it should be plenty strong.

Canuckle Head
11-03-2010, 03:57 PM
Just as a side note, after taking the majority of the water out, water kept coming from the rear of the boat. The foam is saturated with water and I am not sure it will be completely dry by the time I put her away for the winter. I am going to buy a couple of moisture removers from the boat shop.(Not sure what they are called)

If it's comming from the rear of the boat then I would guess that it's trapped back there as well. Why isn't it making it's way to the bilge area? I'll tell you why, because it's a DESIGN FLAW.

brain_rinse
11-03-2010, 04:35 PM
Just got off the phone with SC. Their web presence is almost nil right now which is why they haven't noticed/responded to this thread. I was told there they have hired someone that is currently in training that will better represent SC on these forums in the future.

I discussed this issue, as well as this thread in detail. The guidance I was given, and asked to share with all of you, was to go through your dealer. They have several different ways of dealing with this issue, including the deckplate/vacuum method that some of you have already done. They also mentioned drilling weep holes to allow water to somehow reach the bilge (I didn't understand this one) as well as the option of drilling a much smaller hole that doesn't require a deckplate and then using a reducer on your shopvac to reach the water.

So if you haven't already, take it up with your dealer, and report back on how you plan to address the issue. Personally, I like the bilge pump idea. Hmm....

Canuckle Head
11-03-2010, 04:38 PM
Didn't Cab try that already?


Well, I got this e-mail from my dealer this morning who heard back from SC:

"The answer was that it is not a structural issue that would be covered under the limited lifetime warranty of the hull, so it will not be covered under warranty."

What I don't understand is why they agreed to cover mnpracing's boat but not mine, especially when mnp bought his boat used and I bought mine new (no offense mnpracing).

brain_rinse
11-03-2010, 04:43 PM
Oh one more thing I forgot to mention. I asked about the potential issues with doing absolutely nothing. From their perspective the worst case scenario is that if it got 100% full of water down there, then froze solid you could potentially end up with some stress cracks in the floor of the ski locker area. This would be cosmetic only and would never impact the structural integrity of the hull in any way.

PS - don't shoot the messenger. :)

Grant M
11-03-2010, 04:52 PM
Thanks for the update Brainrinse. It would only make sense that with that water in there you have the potential for mold growth as well - which wouldn't be good.

squeeg333
11-03-2010, 04:53 PM
Brain, thanks so much for posting that information from SC. It's unfortunate that this is happening to a large number of the loyal customers on this site. I am sure there are countless other boats out there experiencing this issue that aren't on this forum.

In a perfect world, SC would make good on this as part of a 'recall' or something similar. However, we all know it's not a perfect world. I am really stoked to see the proactive approaches by a lot of you guys on here - personally I'm not ready to drill into the floor of my boat - but I am glad to know I have options. And from all appearances, these options have all worked, at least in providing a way to remove the water.

True, it's crap that this is occuring at all, and it would be awesome to dry the area completely up, seal it all 100%, and be done with it. But it sounds like there very well may be numerous places water can get into the place.

So, whether you do or wether you don't try to fix you boat, it makes me feel a little better that SC did have a little to say on it (though they needed prodding several times). I would caution to take their stance at face value, but I don't think they would lead us all astray, not when it comes to the structural integrity of their boats - and not when we all love our Moombas as much as we do!

Razzman
11-03-2010, 05:23 PM
The guidance I was given, and asked to share with all of you, was to go through your dealer.

Never gonna happen! I have the crappiest dealer ever who is known for screwing up work like this! Hell they overtightened my oil filter and then wouldn't take responsibility for the work even though they were the last ones to touch it when i let them winterize in late '08, they didn't even winterize properly! Then they wanted it for a week to get it off!

Nope, they will never see my boat again. The funny thing was I brought up my concerns to Natalie Carrera way back in '08 about them and she insured me that their previous reputation issues had been addressed. I guess they didn't take it seriously. I made the mistake of telling a buddy to go to them, they screwed his up too! My bad, shame on me ... :cool:

More thoughts ...

I'm thinking this needs to be looked at by a neutral third party and assessed, no manufacturer is going to own up to a defect in hull design or construction. If this is indeed a defective design then even the "fix" may not actually fix this at all. Like i said earlier, If the water is getting in from somewhere else then this won't correct anything right?

Think about it, '07 up boats have dripless shaft seals so where would that much water be coming from? The bilge? Not enough to fill that bow cavity. I have a really hard time believing that much water can flow through the small hole into the ski locker from the bilge and go forward and over into that cavity. Water over the bow would flow over, accross the floor and to the rear of the boat. Sure some would get to the ski locker, but not that much!

Currently i don't have a ballast bag in the ski locker, the pump is even removed so no water can get in there from the ballast system yet there is still water there. There's no leaks in the cooling system at all so what gives?

Take away all the other variables i've heard. Rain storms; nope, not me. Water over the bow; not since summer of '08. Wet gear in locker; nope, never. So where is it coming from? It's enough that i have to suck it up with a vac or multiple towels. I'll know more in a couple days. This makes me wonder if this issue isn't part of the reason for their Vinylester Barrier they apply? To protect against extra water in the hull and delamination?

Just thinking openly is all. The more i see and read about this the madder it makes me. I love my LSV and it's been 100% reliable, but this is not right and needs to be addressed by SC, especially since the list is growing every day!

Razzman
11-03-2010, 05:32 PM
Thanks for the update Brainrinse. It would only make sense that with that water in there you have the potential for mold growth as well - which wouldn't be good.

Grant read my previous post, #132.

T100
11-03-2010, 05:44 PM
When I removed all the foam, the water was very clear and there was absolutely no smell to the water or the inside of the compartment. I also just had the boat winterized so there was antifreeze in the motor bilge but there was no pink color to the water I was taking out for under the ski locker.

I just looked at lunch and there is another inch of water in the hole.

I have a real hard time with the comment SC made about the freezing of the water, that"s a lot of water and eventually SOMETHING will crake, break or heave over time. Yes it has some area to expand but the water should have a correct place to flow to and bilged out.

SC should at lest figure that out for us guys that do not have a Dealer in our area.

mnpracing
11-03-2010, 05:51 PM
When I removed all the foam, the water was very clear and there was absolutely no smell to the water or the inside of the compartment. I also just had the boat winterized so there was antifreeze in the motor bilge but there was no pink color to the water I was taking out for under the ski locker.

I just looked at lunch and there is another inch of water in the hole.

I have a real hard time with the comment SC made about the freezing of the water, that"s a lot of water and eventually SOMETHING will crake, break or heave over time. Yes it has some area to expand but the water should have a correct place to flow to and bilged out.

SC should at lest figure that out for us guys that do not have a Dealer in our area.

Mine was some nasty smelling $*it. Smelled like some fish had been stuffed up there and heated up really good, then left to cool, then heated up again, then left to cool, then heated up again, then.......

cab13367
11-03-2010, 06:38 PM
Didn't Cab try that already?

Yes, see post #86.

T100
11-03-2010, 07:01 PM
They also mentioned drilling weep holes to allow water to somehow reach the bilge (I didn't understand this one) as well as the option of drilling a much smaller hole that doesn't require a deckplate and then using a reducer on your shopvac to reach the water.

So if you haven't already, take it up with your dealer, and report back on how you plan to address the issue. Personally, I like the bilge pump idea. Hmm....

There is no way you can get all the water out without going to the bottom of the foam core or even sucking the water off the top. The foam is FULL of water also. Not sure where a guy would put weeping holes.....?
Like I said before, SC should come up with a solution.

squeeg333
11-03-2010, 07:22 PM
Thanks mnpracing,

So this is what I decided to do to get the water out for the winter. As soon as I started to drill water came flowing out and a lot of it. Water was right to the top. I went with the larger 6" access hole to shop vac the water out.

Water is still leaking out as I covered up the boat, I'll vacuum more out tomorrow.

I really like T100's "solution". It's out of the way, simple, and should do the trick. I'm thinking that a solution like this, once you get what appears to be all the water out, it won't be much of an issue. I could see opening this up after each outing, or once a month, or whatever to suck out whatever made it's way in - but once the majority of the water is sucked out, I wouldn't think we'd see these spaces fill completely up again... that is, unless the water is coming straight from the bilge, unencombered (sorry, word of the day!). But getting the majority of the water out would prevent damage that might occur from having the entire cavity full.

But, now that I think more about it, I've seen my ski locker have quite a bit of water in it after a few hours on the water, and no idea how or where that water came from. Similar to what Razz has stated several times... I rarely if ever take water over the bow, don't store wet things in the locker... interesting.

Hopefully things will survive one more winter, and I'll check to see if I have this issue in the spring...

Razzman
11-03-2010, 07:58 PM
I really like T100's "solution".


So to expand on that idea (which some have said) and to make this pretty much worry-free.

Drill a 6-8" opening in the ski locker floor comparable to the lowest collection point below.
Carve out foam circularly same diameter as deck plate to hull.
Insert circular screen from top to bottom in opening (similar to raw water filter screen).
Insert and secure an auto bilge pump (ex: Rule 500 series) into opening.
Plumb into front ballast drain.
Wire to existing bilge pump circuit or another 12v ignition source.
Insert a 6-8" deck plate in the ski locker and seal.
So whenever the ignition is turned on the auto bige pump is operational and would be functional. A cylindrical screen will keep foam where it belongs and a clean area for the pump.

The biggest issue would be securing the bilge pump to an uneven surface. It would have to be very secure as that portion of the hull takes a bit of hammering unlike the stern bilge area.

The biggest plus to this which i believe was said, you wouldn't have to cut into your floor or worry about fixing the obvious defect (imo).

Hmmm ... I like this idea MUCH better than cutting the floor.

DOCDRS
11-03-2010, 07:59 PM
I went with that location of the hole because when I looking at the belly of the boat that was the lowest point in the dip of the bow under the boat. As I shop vac-ed the water out, I raised and lowered the bow of the boat to get the flow of the water to move. That is why I noted the water was surprisingly coming from the rear of the boat after the majority of the water was vacuumed out.
DOCDRS I am considering installing a bilge pump, that is way I went with the 6" access hole.

ya read my mind, i'm going to have to check my boat out as well.....and with that at the rear of the locker you will prob be able to fish a line from in front of your fuel tank hopefully as it wont have to go far

brain_rinse
11-03-2010, 08:05 PM
Hmmm ... I like this idea MUCH better than cutting the floor.
Same here. The other huge bonus would be that you've also addressed the "stank locker" issue by adding that deck plate. Aaaand you get redundant bilge pumps which is nice peace of mind.

DOCDRS
11-03-2010, 08:15 PM
Just a note for every one.....they have been using foam for flotation for years, even back when they used wood for stringers and floors. Although the wood would rot and the foam would become saturated.....just browse the supra or cc forum... or visa versa, I do not believe it ever caused a serious structural problem.....But it is an issue and I believe t100 solution with a bilge pump is an appropriate solution.......due to the design and the fact that water seeps everywhere it may even be the permanent solution and find its way as OEM on newer models.....Just because I said it, does not make it right but it is the way it is.

Razzman
11-03-2010, 08:39 PM
Same here. The other huge bonus would be that you've also addressed the "stank locker" issue by adding that deck plate. Aaaand you get redundant bilge pumps which is nice peace of mind.

The only real issue I see with this is getting a pump close to the floor. If it's not close it will still leave water there. With a deep v keel that will be a challenge. Now if weep holes can be added as SC suggests that would eliminate the rest. But that would require pulling the gas tank. Hmmm

you da man
11-03-2010, 09:30 PM
I have an 08 XLV and I haven't noticed a squish sound in the basement of the boat but I've never compared the center compartment of the LSV/Outback to the XLV. I know for sure that the XLV center comparment has got to be much deeper that the other two models. However, I don't truly know if there is a false floor down there. As far as water getting into the bilge and/or under the void between the hull and gas tank...that's going to be from the in floor cooler on the XLV as it drains into that area in front of the gas tank and a small amount will come from the very little amount of water that will drip/leak from the ballast sac connectors in the center ballast. My boat storage area has a very steep incline that I pull my boat up (much steeper than the ramps) and I'll park there for a few minutes to allow that water from under the gas tank to make it's way to the "normal" bilge area and out the drain hole. So far, so good with me...I hope.

moombadaze
11-04-2010, 08:12 AM
Well I had a couple extra minutes last night of free time so i grabbed the cordless drill with a 3/4 hole saw and started drilling-as soon as the pilot bit went thru I had water squirting up about a inch. Drilled the hole and water poured out for about 2 minutes-this is a 3/4 hole-that can only mean that the water is higher than the bottom of the ski locker floor. One good thing is the water didnt stink.

After 7 yrs of Moomba ownership with 2 boats this is the 1st time Ive really been upset about the product.

Plan to drill the hole out to 6" and add a deck plate and just vacum out the water once a month or so, or might put some tubeing down to the bottom and run it up to the side of the boat like the ballast drains-I could then just stand outside the boat and vacum the water from there-lost easier that way.

Razzman
11-04-2010, 10:36 AM
Well I had a couple extra minutes last night of free time so i grabbed the cordless drill with a 3/4 hole saw and started drilling-as soon as the pilot bit went thru I had water squirting up about a inch. Drilled the hole and water poured out for about 2 minutes-this is a 3/4 hole-that can only mean that the water is higher than the bottom of the ski locker floor. One good thing is the water didnt stink.

After 7 yrs of Moomba ownership with 2 boats this is the 1st time Ive really been upset about the product.

Plan to drill the hole out to 6" and add a deck plate and just vacum out the water once a month or so, or might put some tubeing down to the bottom and run it up to the side of the boat like the ballast drains-I could then just stand outside the boat and vacum the water from there-lost easier that way.

Add another to the list :cool:

I kinda got the sme ideal last night, drill a 3/4" hole and see if water comes out, if so use a long piece of 3/4" copper pipe to the bottom (with holes drilled in it), attach a hose to it and siphon out all i can over the side and leave the hose there for the winter. That way i can repeatedly suck it out until totally empty/dry and repair in the spring.

jmvotto
11-04-2010, 11:29 AM
dumb question:confused:, do supras have this issue too?

Razzman
11-04-2010, 11:35 AM
dumb question:confused:, do supras have this issue too?

Member 09outback stated his '03 Launch SSV has the this issue as well.

Iowa05LSV
11-04-2010, 12:27 PM
Add Iowa05LSV to the list.

We had this exact issue (if you look back you will see the thread from 1+ year ago). Our dealer (B and B in Delhi IA) resolve the issue for us. Since we didn't get the boat on the water this year, I can't speak to if this was a perminant solution.

mnpracing
11-04-2010, 12:35 PM
Add Iowa05LSV to the list.

We had this exact issue (if you look back you will see the thread from 1+ year ago). Our dealer (B and B in Delhi IA) resolve the issue for us. Since we didn't get the boat on the water this year, I can't speak to if this was a perminant solution.

Can you please go into some detail on what your dealer did?

mnpracing
11-04-2010, 12:37 PM
1. mnpracing - 08 LSV - repaired under warranty
2. cab13367 - 06 LSV
3. T100 - 04 LSV (same hull as 06-08 OBV)
4. Canuckle Head - 07 OBV (same hull as 04 LSV)
5. GrantM - 06 LSV
6. 09outback - 03 Launch SSV
7. saskyrider - 05 LSV (same hull as 06-08 OBV)
8. mk_deuce - 07 LSV
9. Kojack -
10. Moombadaze - 08 LSV
11. brain_rinse - 08 LSV
12. wilemobius - 06 LSV
13. Iowa05LSV - 05LSV - repaired under warranty

Added Iowa05LSV

Iowa05LSV
11-04-2010, 01:47 PM
Can you please go into some detail on what your dealer did?

Similar to what was described by others in this thread. Cut hole in floor and over several weeks continued to vac out water that accumulated. Once it was dry, they re-sealed the hole in the ski locker. They also found a crack in the tube that carrys water from the locker to the bildge (what they believe started the issue) so that was also repaired.

mnpracing
11-04-2010, 01:50 PM
Similar to what was described by others in this thread. Cut hole in floor and over several weeks continued to vac out water that accumulated. Once it was dry, they re-sealed the hole in the ski locker. They also found a crack in the tube that carrys water from the locker to the bildge (what they believe started the issue) so that was also repaired.

Have you had the issue since it was repaired?

Iowa05LSV
11-04-2010, 03:19 PM
Unknown. Due to flooding in the spring and then relocating, our boat didn't get off the trailer this year.

jmvotto
11-04-2010, 03:27 PM
my dealer was going to storage to check on mine and do the walk squish test.... and conatct SC for remedies. he also reviwed this thread as well

Razzman
11-04-2010, 04:02 PM
my dealer was going to storage to check on mine and do the walk squish test.... and conatct SC for remedies. he also reviwed this thread as well

Very good JM! Keep us posted.

Canuckle Head
11-04-2010, 05:42 PM
I wonder if there are any 3D AutoCAD drawings of this boat that would allow us to take a look at the hull/stringer configuration to figure out why this water is not making it's way to the bilge?

Razzman
11-04-2010, 06:04 PM
I'm sure there are, but they'd be in SC's possesstion and we'd never get them I doubt. It would be sweet to see exactly what's going on for sure.

Canuckle Head
11-04-2010, 08:57 PM
I wish they knew what was going on.............:(

moombadaze
11-04-2010, 09:06 PM
started water removal tonight after boring a hole thru the foam to the hull bottom-that foam is some strong stuff by the way. Ive gotten about a gallon out and just letting the foam drain and will get some more every night after work untill its dry. What a pain in the ass this is. I would really hate to be up north and worry about freezing.

98outback
11-05-2010, 08:03 AM
Im not sure how many this will apply to but I do not have the walk thru bow. I have the play pen setup. This weekend I am going to drill a hole and see how deep it is from the bottom of the locker to the bottom of the boat and then put in a deck plate. How many other people have the play pen setup besides me?

jmvotto
11-05-2010, 09:19 AM
Very good JM! Keep us posted.

My dealer got back to me and went to storage to ease my concerns. He found that doing the walk and squish test that mine is fairly dry. he even heard the "crunching sound" of dry foam. also stated that there was a small void near the bow, but was somewhat covered with excess glass and sealant ( probably not on purpose),so the void is about the size of a fist.

Thanks to Quinn, for going out of your way to ensure some piece of mind in the off season and during your wind down busy season up North for the winter

FWIW i use my test plug in the ski locker drain most of the season.

moombadaze
11-05-2010, 09:28 PM
jm, glad to hear you have a dry hull

moombadaze
11-05-2010, 09:32 PM
pulled the floor up tonight and found about 2" of water under the gas tank-vacumed that dry and got some more water out from under the ski locker.

one good thing--got to listen to some music and drink a beer at the same time :D

jmvotto
11-05-2010, 11:26 PM
when i did my ballast project this summer i pulled the floor. no water in the gas tank area either, guess i am just lucky

viking
11-06-2010, 01:18 PM
Looks like most on here with problems have the LSV and not the Outback V so that could be some of it?

wolfeman131
11-06-2010, 01:42 PM
Looks like most on here with problems have the LSV and not the Outback V so that could be some of it?

I was wondering the same thing. Any 06-09 OBV owners having this issue?

Wonder if this was addressed in the 2010 or 2011 LSV's?

Razzman
11-06-2010, 02:32 PM
Wonder if this was addressed in the 2010 or 2011 LSV's?

Read earlier in the thread, a 2010 was shown without the issue.

wolfeman131
11-06-2010, 05:25 PM
Thanks Razz. I've been trying to keep up with this thread, but missed that it looks like the 2010's are OK.

98outback
11-06-2010, 09:58 PM
I bought a 4 inch screw lid today and went ahead and cut the hole in the ski locker. Remember I have the playpen seating but it should still be the same basically. Water was on top of the foam as soon as I cut into the fiberglass. I then removed the foam all the way down to the bottom of the hull. As I expected the water kept coming. I used the shop vac and sucked up about 2 gallons. I am going to let it sit and go back and check it tomorrow before putting the lid on it. I will post some pics as soon as I can figure out how to shrink the file size on this new Mac Book.

98outback
11-06-2010, 10:03 PM
Pics of the job

T100
11-08-2010, 12:20 PM
Good morning Gents,:)

Has anyone received any further info from their dealers, rep's or boat shops on where the water is coming from. And a solution to getting the water back to the bilge??

98outback
11-08-2010, 12:34 PM
Went out yesterday afternoon to install the twist cap and the was more water. I guess the foam is drying out.

cab13367
11-08-2010, 12:55 PM
Well, I got this e-mail from my dealer this morning who heard back from SC:

"The answer was that it is not a structural issue that would be covered under the limited lifetime warranty of the hull, so it will not be covered under warranty."

What I don't understand is why they agreed to cover mnpracing's boat but not mine, especially when mnp bought his boat used and I bought mine new (no offense mnpracing).

I called Skier's Choice directly after receiving the response above from my dealer. I explained that at least one other Moomba owner is getting this issue fixed under warranty, why not mine. They promised to look into it and call me back which they did this morning. The explanation I got is that mnpracing's boat was covered under warranty because the issue was identified by the original owner (mnpracing is the 2nd owner of his boat) during the one year cosmetic warranty period, which mnpracing stated in one of his earlier posts. Since I am beyond that one year warranty period and the water under the locker is not causing any structural damage, then it's not covered under the lifetime structural warranty.

So those of you whose boat is less than a year old from the date of original sale, please check your ski lockers and if you have this issue, let the dealer know ASAP and get it documented.

He did say that the correct way to get the water out of there is the way everyone has been doing it - drill an access hole in the ski locker and suck it out periodically. I asked about removing the gas tank and drilling a hole into the area under the ski locker and he said that would not work since there are actually two bulkheads between the gas tank area and the ski locker (for strength) and that because of the drop keel, the water under the ski locker would not drain into the gas tank area.

So that's that. I am going to do what everyone else has done and drill the hole in the ski locker. I guess I will measure under the hull from the raw water intake or speedo pick up to the start of the drop keep, then duplicate that measurement from inside the boat so that I am sure to drill right above the lowest point of the hull.

Razzman
11-08-2010, 01:23 PM
Al did you by any chance happen to ask how that much water can be getting in there from bow? I gotta believe there's some other source of access.

cab13367
11-08-2010, 03:55 PM
Al did you by any chance happen to ask how that much water can be getting in there from bow? I gotta believe there's some other source of access.

We discussed it and he believes it's coming it could enter from the front of the locker if there was a lot of water in there. In my case, I'm pretty sure that's how it's getting there.

jmvotto
11-08-2010, 05:18 PM
i was told through the ski locker drain hole, but that was an opinion.... my .02

T100
11-08-2010, 06:37 PM
i was told through the ski locker plug, but that was an opinion.... my .02

Do you mean the drain in the locker going to the rear of the boat? If the drain to the rear is broken, cracked or disconnected that may be the problem. It is still is a lot of water getting under the locker.

mnpracing
11-08-2010, 06:52 PM
I could easily see 1/2 gallon getting under there each outing. Water sits in the locker, sloshes forward, and back under the gap in the front of the locker. After a few outings, the space is full.

jmvotto
11-08-2010, 07:02 PM
Do you mean the drain in the locker going to the rear of the boat? If the drain to the rear is broken, cracked or disconnected that may be the problem. It is still is a lot of water getting under the locker.

yes the drain hole, water could get from the bildge area as well from fast stops etc. down hill trailering or just sloshing rollers over the bow around in the locker.

cab13367
11-08-2010, 09:03 PM
I've had a lot of water in my ski locker in the past due to a leaky shaft seal and a leak in my fill hose. I've fixed the fill hose leak and I am going to fix the leaky shaft seal this winter. Then I am going to install a plug in the ski locker drain (to prevent any water to drain into the ski locker from the bilge area) and try to keep it dry. I hardly ever take any water over the bow so that's not a problem.

Hopefully, this will keep the area under the ski locker from filling again.

I still plan to drill a 4" access hole and suck the water out.

you da man
11-08-2010, 11:59 PM
Maybe this flaw/shortcut in unfinished hull design is part of "price point" wake boats? Moomba will not be my next boat at this point.

cab13367
11-09-2010, 12:53 AM
Maybe this flaw/shortcut in unfinished hull design is part of "price point" wake boats? Moomba will not be my next boat at this point.

I have to admit, this issue has soured me on the Moomba brand as well. This is just poor design and poor execution. How hard would it have been to make the ski locker floor piece fit correctly (flush with the hull at the front), or spend an extra 5 minutes and seal it correctly? Why did it take until 2010 to figure this out and fix this design/manufacturing flaw?

Makes u wonder what other issues exist that we can't see.

Razzman
11-09-2010, 01:14 AM
Personally i wouldn't let it get to you guys or sour the brand. Everything made has flaws, some you see, some you don't. This one has been found and it's a fairly easy to correct it. Yeah SC isn't standing behind it in most cases it looks like, but it doesn't diminish the fact it's still a great boat.

I seriously doubt there's any hidden flaws. I just don't think they thought this would be an issue is all. Hell look at Toyota if you really want a serious example! Just because it's a boat doesn't make any better or worse, it's still just a boat and a mechanical piece of machinery.

Want a great example far worse than this? How about buying a new $20,000 Harley and finding out it could possibly have a known engine flaw that could detonate the engine? Yup it seriously happened to me and yes the engine let go. Got a new engine but it took six weeks to handle it. Far worse i could have been seriously hurt when it happened. So as far as problems go, this really isn't squat and i wouldn't worry that much. Fix-n-Go!

mnpracing
11-09-2010, 08:56 AM
Personally i wouldn't let it get to you guys or sour the brand. Everything made has flaws, some you see, some you don't. This one has been found and it's a fairly easy to correct it. Yeah SC isn't standing behind it in most cases it looks like, but it doesn't diminish the fact it's still a great boat.

I seriously doubt there's any hidden flaws. I just don't think they thought this would be an issue is all. Hell look at Toyota if you really want a serious example! Just because it's a boat doesn't make any better or worse, it's still just a boat and a mechanical piece of machinery.

Want a great example far worse than this? How about buying a new $20,000 Harley and finding out it could possibly have a known engine flaw that could detonate the engine? Yup it seriously happened to me and yes the engine let go. Got a new engine but it took six weeks to handle it. Far worse i could have been seriously hurt when it happened. So as far as problems go, this really isn't squat and i wouldn't worry that much. Fix-n-Go!

Harley isn't a good, or relevant, example. Harley buyers should expect myriad issues. Harley buyers typically buy a Harley because of the brand, not the price point and certainly not because of a stellar maintenance/repair history. A relevant example would be something that is value-price point but advertised to be solidly built, but has known, uncorrected flaws similar to your Toyota example.

wolfeman131
11-09-2010, 09:05 AM
I'm going to agree with both Cab & Razz. I wish SC would handle this differently, but I also understand the economics of a full blown recall. I've had to execute a few product recalls and the cost of the product/repair is just the tip of the iceberg. There are quite a few "hidden" costs that the end consumer is unaware of and those are the ones that snowball and can serious cripple a small company.

But, Razz is correct in that this really isn't a big deal. Had mnpracing not purchased a used Moomba, found the board and posted . . . would this thread have even been created? We've heard that the LSV is "the single most popular boat in the tournament wakeboard market segment." If this is true, don't you think we'd have 200 pages to this thread instead of 20? If it were a serious structural or mechanical issue, wouldn't there have been major problems reported since this hull was introduced in 2006?

So, what do I think SC should do? First, admit that this might be an "issue" for some owners. The lawyers can write it up so they avoid serious legal implications. It's a fairly easy fix (drill hole in ski locker floor, remove some foam and install the access cover) and a fairly inexpensive part so I would like to see them put together a repair package that would include instructions and an access cover to anyone that owns a 2006-2009 LSV. People could simply send SC their shipping address & current registration and the package ships out to them at no cost.

kaneboats
11-09-2010, 09:51 AM
I'd prefer a kit too. I'm within a year so I'll have to put in a warranty claim on this. I'd rather just have them send me the kit than raise a stink at the dealer, etc.

mnpracing
11-09-2010, 11:35 AM
1. mnpracing - 08 LSV - repaired under warranty
2. cab13367 - 06 LSV
3. T100 - 04 LSV (same hull as 06-08 OBV)
4. Canuckle Head - 07 OBV (same hull as 04 LSV)
5. GrantM - 06 LSV
6. 09outback - 03 Launch SSV
7. saskyrider - 05 LSV (same hull as 06-08 OBV)
8. mk_deuce - 07 LSV
9. Kojack -
10. Moombadaze - 08 LSV
11. brain_rinse - 08 LSV
12. wilemobius - 06 LSV
13. Iowa05LSV - 05LSV - repaired under warranty
14. kaneboats - 08 LSV

Razzman
11-09-2010, 11:40 AM
Harley isn't a good, or relevant, example. Harley buyers should expect myriad issues. Harley buyers typically buy a Harley because of the brand, not the price point and certainly not because of a stellar maintenance/repair history. A relevant example would be something that is value-price point but advertised to be solidly built, but has known, uncorrected flaws similar to your Toyota example.

That's where i disagree mnp. Nobody should expect issues due to brand. If it was 20 years ago i would agree, Harleys of that era were crap and everyone knew it, we bought 'em anyway, I had three and lived with it. In 2000 when HD introduced the counter balanced TC88 motor they knew it had cam bearing issues but they rushed it to market anyway, where to this day there is still a class action suit against them on that issue 11 years later. Once they repaired my motor (at 10K miles) i put 85,000 more miles on that bike in five years without one issue, not one. I sold 4 Harleys over a year ago and not one had any issues other than the 2000 model.

Price wasn't and isn't the issue here, value price point has nothing to do with it. It's engineering and what the manufacturer is aware of and what's acceptable to sbsorb or ignore. Mastercraft put out boats for years with crappy gel and cracking tower issues, they knew it but it would cost too much to fix so they lived with the warrenty issues until they re-tooled. Notice how their towers now have corner bracing and support, it's how they addressed the issue. We're talking 60K and up boats here.

cab13367
11-09-2010, 01:22 PM
Don't get me wrong, I don't expect SC to pay $1500 to have everyone's boat repaired like mnpracing. I would expect them to offer to have their dealers drill the access hole, vacuum what water is there, then install the access cover. I think it would be a nice gesture on their part, even though I think most people would just do it themselves, including me. It would not cost them that much but would buy them a lot of good will, I think. If they don't want to pay to permanenly fix the issue, at least provide a way for their customers to get the water out of an area where water was clearly not intended to go.

What bothers me most is the shoddy work on the installation of the ski locker floor. From the poorly fitting piece to the half ass attempt to seal it, both at the front where it doesn't mate up with the hull correctly and in places where they injected foam and then sealed the holes. There are many on the forum that have reported water coming from those holes as well. Seems like they would have recognized that the piece was not correctly made and redo the mold, or spend an extra 5 minutes during installation of the floor to make up for it and properly seal the openings. That's the part that bothers me because other than this issue, I think they make a really well put together boat.

Al

98outback
11-09-2010, 01:41 PM
I took this pic of the box area of the ski locker and it looks like some work was done there before I got the boat. Im not sure if it came from the factory like this or a dealer did it at some time. Could be where they tried to fix it but there was still water under the floor. Notice the different colors of the black. I have also heard that when people remove their gas tank that the fiberglass/gelcoat is cracked around the drain hole from the ski locker to the bilge. That could very well be where some water is getting down into the hull.

thesack
11-09-2010, 02:15 PM
Makes u wonder what other issues exist that we can't see.


I seriously doubt there's any hidden flaws.

There is a known issue that you can't see with regards to the swim platform mounting brackets and them not being attached correctly to the aluminum plate inside the boat. I do not know the years of boats that were affected by this, but I am fairly sure this problem was fixed in 09.

I know with regards to my boat before it was hit, I had stress cracks around the swim platfrom brackets. AWS documented it and talked to SC about it. Was told that SC would cover the repair if there was actual damage to the fiberglass (under the liftime hull warranty), but the only way to know if there was damage was to actually start work to repair the stress cracks. After talking to AWS about it, we decided to just keep an eye on the stress cracks and see if they changed. We I got hit, the Tige slide across my swim platfrom, we were sure that I had fiberglass damage now since i had larger cracks in the gelcoat. While doing the repair AWS found that out of the 8 bolts (4 on each bracket) I had 1 in the aluminum plate. They had no idea how my swim platform ever stayed on for as long as it did, let alone stay on after being slide across.

cab13367
11-09-2010, 03:00 PM
I took this pic of the box area of the ski locker and it looks like some work was done there before I got the boat. Im not sure if it came from the factory like this or a dealer did it at some time. Could be where they tried to fix it but there was still water under the floor. Notice the different colors of the black. I have also heard that when people remove their gas tank that the fiberglass/gelcoat is cracked around the drain hole from the ski locker to the bilge. That could very well be where some water is getting down into the hull.

I have patches like that too and I think that is where they injected foam into the cavity underneath then did a quick patch. This is an area where other have reported water coming up thru the floor.

cab13367
11-09-2010, 03:03 PM
While doing the repair AWS found that out of the 8 bolts (4 on each bracket) I had 1 in the aluminum plate.

Great, that's just wonderful news :(

you da man
11-09-2010, 03:56 PM
Looks like I'll be hitting up Axis, Malibu, Centurion, or Sanger in the future

brain_rinse
11-09-2010, 04:36 PM
Looks like I'll be hitting up Axis, Malibu, Centurion, or Sanger in the future
I'm no Skiers Choice apologist, but those other brands have their own set of issues.

I'm glad Razz brought up some of the MC problems for comparison. They are STILL using that crappy tower with bracing in the corners because they were unwilling to fix the root cause. And how many years in a row did they produce boats where the vinyl would just fall apart at the seams after a few years? But MC is still largely regarded as the benchmark for the wakeboat industry... go figure.

Mo money mo problems.

you da man
11-09-2010, 04:57 PM
I'm no Skiers Choice apologist, but those other brands have their own set of issues.

I'm glad Razz brought up some of the MC problems for comparison. They are STILL using that crappy tower with bracing in the corners because they were unwilling to fix the root cause. And how many years in a row did they produce boats where the vinyl would just fall apart at the seams after a few years? But MC is still largely regarded as the benchmark for the wakeboat industry... go figure.

Mo money mo problems.

I'm not cool with knowing that a boat company will let owners drive their boats with a poor hull design or assembly that allows water to be trapped in an area that is supposed to have foam for floatation not a sponge

brain_rinse
11-09-2010, 05:20 PM
I'm not cool with knowing that a boat company will let owners drive their boats with a poor hull design or assembly that allows water to be trapped in an area that is supposed to have foam for floatation not a sponge
I'm not saying you have to be cool with it. I'm not cool with it either and will get it fixed. But if you're going to jump ship just know those other ships will have problems too.

you da man
11-09-2010, 05:50 PM
I'm not saying you have to be cool with it. I'm not cool with it either and will get it fixed. But if you're going to jump ship just know those other ships will have problems too.

I knew about MC's issues, that's why I won't look into them...plus the price tag. However, we on this forum are the Moomba minority as far as Moomba owners goes and just imagine how many hundreds of LSV's and other models that may have this issue and have no clue.

Razzman
11-09-2010, 06:40 PM
Well MC isn't the only one either. ALL boats have issues period. They are hand built and issues happen. It's all about what happens when issues do happen and let me tell you, no mfgr outshines anyone another.

Check the forums for other brands and you'll see loads of issues and let me say this, SC seems to be on the low end of the scale that i've seen.

I have a buddy with a Sanger V215, great freaking boat! But everytime he loads the front in floor ballast it overloads and the floor raises up! It's under the floor with no access unless you tear half the boat apart. Sanger won't do anything about it. His trailer bunk supports have collapsed twice, Sanger won't do anything about it, the trailer eats tires like crazy, Sanger won't do anything about. Same story with the interior seams splitting.

Centurions are notorious for gelcoat issue, blisters and cracks and their Mercruiser motors have way more issues than Indmar or PCM.

The Malibu Boats forum no longer exists, know why? Because of a major blowout concerning boat issues that escalated way out of control due to angry owners with issues. Not to mention a period where wedges were ripping off the back of the boat!

Go to the Axis forum and you'll already see issues there as well.

The point is they're boats and issues happen, in this particular case it's not the end of the world and there's no hull integrity issues. I'm not trying to sway anyone's opinions but to go off half cocked thinking ones better than another because your pissed is unrealistic imo. My 2 cents :cool:

Mikes
11-09-2010, 06:51 PM
I have been watching this subject with great interest. So when I got to our garage this weekend,I looked in my bilge and ski locker and they were completely dry. The boat has been inside with the hatches open for 3 weeks. Just to see what would happen I jacked up the trailer until the rear touched the ground. After a few hours I had 4 gallons of water in a bucket under the wake plate. The boat was sitting level to slightly bow high before this. Any ideas?

you da man
11-09-2010, 07:44 PM
I have been watching this subject with great interest. So when I got to our garage this weekend,I looked in my bilge and ski locker and they were completely dry. The boat has been inside with the hatches open for 3 weeks. Just to see what would happen I jacked up the trailer until the rear touched the ground. After a few hours I had 4 gallons of water in a bucket under the wake plate. The boat was sitting level to slightly bow high before this. Any ideas?

You have the same issue as the 21 pages of this post is all about

Razzman
11-09-2010, 08:09 PM
I have been watching this subject with great interest. So when I got to our garage this weekend,I looked in my bilge and ski locker and they were completely dry. The boat has been inside with the hatches open for 3 weeks. Just to see what would happen I jacked up the trailer until the rear touched the ground. After a few hours I had 4 gallons of water in a bucket under the wake plate. The boat was sitting level to slightly bow high before this. Any ideas?

As YDM said it's probably the same issue throughout the thread. Read the thread, check the pics, read the diagnostic and see if that's your issue. And remember one thing, if the water does get in there it won't come out on it's own due to the drop keel as you found out so you either have to correct the issue or do what you've just done.

For the record i had to do that on my last boat all the time due to the drop keel, and no it wasn't a Moomba.

mnpracing
11-09-2010, 08:11 PM
I have been watching this subject with great interest. So when I got to our garage this weekend,I looked in my bilge and ski locker and they were completely dry. The boat has been inside with the hatches open for 3 weeks. Just to see what would happen I jacked up the trailer until the rear touched the ground. After a few hours I had 4 gallons of water in a bucket under the wake plate. The boat was sitting level to slightly bow high before this. Any ideas?

Did you do the squish test? Step into your ski locker and bounce a little along the length of your locker opening. Can you hear water under the ski locker floor?

cab13367
11-09-2010, 08:30 PM
I have been watching this subject with great interest. So when I got to our garage this weekend,I looked in my bilge and ski locker and they were completely dry. The boat has been inside with the hatches open for 3 weeks. Just to see what would happen I jacked up the trailer until the rear touched the ground. After a few hours I had 4 gallons of water in a bucket under the wake plate. The boat was sitting level to slightly bow high before this. Any ideas?

This could simply be from water between the bilge and the ski locker, i.e., under the gas tank. I can do the same with my boat - the bilge and the ski locker can be dry but when I park on a steep hill, water runs out from the area under the gas tank, into the bilge, and out the rear drain hole.

As far as we know, the water trapped under the ski locker will not drain out to the bilge as it is trapped there.

See pic below. This is the area I am talking about.

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg276/cab13367/IMG_6349.jpg

Mikes
11-09-2010, 08:51 PM
Thanks for the info guys. I did read all 21 pages but most of you said if water gets in there it cant get out. I really dont think I had 4 gallons under the gas tank. But maybe I did, but it could have come from under the ski locker. Anyway you can try and see if it helps. The water did not come out all at once it came out over several hours. I could have more in the bucket this weekend, I will see.Thanks again.

moombabound
11-09-2010, 09:58 PM
The Malibu Boats forum no longer exists...

http://www.themalibucrew.com/

My buddy gets good use out of it. Seems alive and well.

brain_rinse
11-09-2010, 10:12 PM
http://www.themalibucrew.com/

My buddy gets good use out of it. Seems alive and well.
I don't think that's a manufacturer supported forum. Which I think was Razz's point: quality concerns from the user community got so ugly that Malibu stopped having a discussion forum altogether.

Razzman
11-10-2010, 12:02 AM
I don't think that's a manufacturer supported forum. Which I think was Razz's point: quality concerns from the user community got so ugly that Malibu stopped having a discussion forum altogether.

Exactly Brain, Malibu pulled it for those reasons.

cab13367
11-10-2010, 03:17 AM
Thanks for the info guys. I did read all 21 pages but most of you said if water gets in there it cant get out. I really dont think I had 4 gallons under the gas tank. But maybe I did, but it could have come from under the ski locker. Anyway you can try and see if it helps. The water did not come out all at once it came out over several hours. I could have more in the bucket this weekend, I will see.Thanks again.

Yeah, 4 gallons seems like a lot from under the gas tank. And it would have come out all at once. Maybe in your case, some of the water under the locker is coming out under the bulkhead.

moombadaze
11-10-2010, 08:28 AM
I havent gotten anymore water out after 5 more trys with the vacum so Im going to add a small deck plate and be done with it. I would say in total I got maybe 2 gallons total. Even with this I still plan on getting another Moomba when the time comes.

viking
11-10-2010, 03:32 PM
I havent gotten anymore water out after 5 more trys with the vacum so Im going to add a small deck plate and be done with it. I would say in total I got maybe 2 gallons total. Even with this I still plan on getting another Moomba when the time comes.

If you don't that would totally screw up your signature :D

bzubke1
11-10-2010, 07:27 PM
Add me to the list.:( However on my boat I noticed there is a small 1/8" diameter hole in the floor of the ski locker so maybe i can get it take care of under warranty hopefully.

T100
11-11-2010, 06:28 PM
Well it seems we keep adding more to the list of the "mystery water" getting to the bottom of your lockers. (really we still only have hunches)There as been a lot of conversing about the boat quality and the little imperfections of this boat and others. I have friends that own all of the big three and they all have their issues, a lot bigger than this.

I own an 04 and the guys that own boats newer and have paid over 35k to 40k plus,this should not be an issue, you shouldn't have to deal with this after paying that kind of money. It doesn't matter if it is a Master Craft or a Moomba , there should be no water trapped in the bottom of the hull.

I am still not very impressed with SC comment " to do what most guys have done and drill a hole and vacuum it out", I've already done that and would like some input for the guys that build these boats on a long term solution, i.e.: bilge pump, fiberglass repair (where), install a drain with a hose from the locker to the rear bilge, gasket or seal replacement ...........SC you can jump in anytime, you guys have the knowledge to solve this issue or at lest guide us in the right direction.
We don't all have dealers just around the corner to get their input, the boys in the design department need to give us some input.

saskyrider
11-12-2010, 11:44 AM
rather than having to use a vacuum the first time i sucked out the water in the middle compartment ( not underneath it) i just detached the drain hose from the empty ballast bag and used it to suck out the water... you could do the same for the underfloor water i guess... i made another little connector that i leave in the glow box to attach to the drain line so it reaches down into the bottom of the drilled hole...

just an idea.

T100 -- i couldn't agree more about SC needing to provide some input here instead of burying their head in the sand!!

Geoff

brain_rinse
11-12-2010, 01:25 PM
i made another little connector that i leave in the glow box to attach to the drain line so it reaches down into the bottom of the drilled hole...

That's a great idea, and if you have the reversible ballast pumps this will probably be much easier than a vacuum. The aerator pumps won't draw water up though unfortunately, so boats more than a couple years old will still be vacuuming.

saskyrider
11-12-2010, 01:55 PM
what i did was run the pump just for a second sucking water in from the lake then reverse it and blow it all out once the pump was primed.

Geoff:D

you da man
11-12-2010, 05:07 PM
After I laughed at my friend for buying a broken forklift for $800. He repaired it and now I've used it to lift the trailer tongue high enough that all the trapped water drains.

cab13367
11-12-2010, 05:23 PM
what i did was run the pump just for a second sucking water in from the lake then reverse it and blow it all out once the pump was primed.

Geoff:D

Huh? How do you suck water in from the lake with the drain pump and then reverse it? I'm confused. :confused:

saskyrider
11-12-2010, 05:54 PM
sorry.. very poorly worded post Al. I would take both hoses off and shoot water from the inlet hose into the drain hose then dunk the drain hose into the hole and it would suck all the water out... this only worked the first time because the water had to seep down after the majority of it was gone and the pump wouldn't stay primed after that. It does work if you haven't done it for a while but if your doing it at the end of each session their probably won't be enough water to keep the pump primed. I actually had a little water left in the centre bag to start with and used that to prime the pump but then i stopped to do something else for a minute and when i came back the pump wouldn't prime, so i used the above method.

hope this described things better. :mrgreen:

cab13367
11-12-2010, 06:12 PM
sorry.. very poorly worded post Al. I would take both hoses off and shoot water from the inlet hose into the drain hose then dunk the drain hose into the hole and it would suck all the water out... this only worked the first time because the water had to seep down after the majority of it was gone and the pump wouldn't stay primed after that. It does work if you haven't done it for a while but if your doing it at the end of each session their probably won't be enough water to keep the pump primed. I actually had a little water left in the centre bag to start with and used that to prime the pump but then i stopped to do something else for a minute and when i came back the pump wouldn't prime, so i used the above method.

hope this described things better. :mrgreen:

Now I got it, thanks. I've done this before also when I had a couple inches of water in the ski locker. I just disconnected the drain hose from the bag and held it down against the ski locker floor and flipped the switch and it would drain the locker as long as there was enough water to completely cover the hose.

brain_rinse
11-16-2010, 08:02 PM
I put an inspection cover towards the rear of the ski locker area. The foam was a little wet but there was no standing water at the bottom. I still get quite a bit of "squish" sound at the front of the locker, but for some reason it's not translating to any water a couple of feet to the rear.

csm
12-16-2010, 03:01 PM
For those that have installed a deck plate in the ski locker, are you guys planning on removing the foam each time you suck water out? or just leaving that little bit of foam out completely.

I have drilled the hole and removed a circular piece of foam, and am in a multi-day process of removing water. I'm just wondering if I should leave the 4" circular piece of foam out for good so I have easy access down to the hull by just unscrewing the deck plate, or if I should put it back in and remove it each time. Just seems like it'll be tough to remove each time through the deck plate.

cab13367
12-16-2010, 07:55 PM
For those that have installed a deck plate in the ski locker, are you guys planning on removing the foam each time you suck water out? or just leaving that little bit of foam out completely.

I have drilled the hole and removed a circular piece of foam, and am in a multi-day process of removing water. I'm just wondering if I should leave the 4" circular piece of foam out for good so I have easy access down to the hull by just unscrewing the deck plate, or if I should put it back in and remove it each time. Just seems like it'll be tough to remove each time through the deck plate.

csm,

That little bit of foam provides a negligible amount of floatation so it's not worth the trouble of putting it back in. I would leave it out.

Al

brain_rinse
12-16-2010, 10:57 PM
I left it out

moombadaze
12-17-2010, 08:34 AM
left if out also

MoMan
01-02-2011, 09:38 PM
You can add me to the list. 06' LSV. I actually noticed this a couple of years ago. Talked to my dealer about it and was assured nothing was wrong. :(

spyder
02-02-2011, 12:03 PM
I definitely have the issue as well, i was not even aware of it until i put the boat away for the winter.. like others the fiberglass is so thin in the locker I actually have a dime sized hole in the locker bottom i noticed when I pulled out the matt that sits under the ballast... the foam was full to the hole with water... i shopvac'd as much as i could but my boat is still soaked.. not sure what to do here.


whats weird, is there are square patches in the floor that are dull and rough feeling, almost like they were fixed previously.. now I am the second owner so who knows..

either way, very bad fibreglass work.


boat year and model in sig.

rdlangston13
02-07-2011, 11:39 PM
add me to the list as well. i just read all 24 pages of this, wow. i need a beer. i noticed that my ski locker was always wet, didnt think much of it at the time but this explains it. looks like ill be drilling a hole and shop vacing in march while i install my new exile system.

has anyone tried the bilge pump idea yet?

teamctl
02-12-2011, 05:34 PM
I just checked mine also after reading this thread. My 07 Outback V is was pretty squishy.

The water is probably at least three years old in there. I hope the cold weather didn't do any lasting damage. The outside of the hull looks find as does the ski locker. The boat is always properly winterized, but had I known this water was there, I, like everyone else here, would have already removed the water. I'll be sure to add this to my winterization checklist next year.

Sea N' Things
02-15-2011, 10:08 AM
I just purchased a left over 2010 Moomba Mobius LSV at the local boat show for what I think a good price. I'm wanting to know if this year is affected as well? I would like the contact info at SC, name and ext, please. I think I will get some sort of additional paper work covering me in the future. Option 2, move into a 2011 or jump up into a Supra. Any advive?

brain_rinse
02-15-2011, 11:11 AM
I wouldn't worry about it. I think the 2010s have glass clear to the front of the bow. But if not add an access port and add a step to your winterization procedure.

Canuckle Head
02-15-2011, 02:22 PM
I have an 07 Outback V and thought I would have to do the same (drill hole / shop vac) untill I jacked up the front of my trailer while it was situated on an incline and lo and behold it drained!

So maybe you just find yourself a hill at the end of the season, pull out your chocks and then crank up the jack and see what hapens. Maybe you don't have to go about drilling holes afterall.

Worked for me!:D

Sea N' Things
02-15-2011, 02:22 PM
I'm sure, like all new things, they look good and work great (the way the manufactured intended)....The one thing which bothers me, is this an issue which will occures over time, meaning a few years from now? I would like to have peace of mind knowing this problem has been resolved in the 2010, so I just want to cover my hinny for down the road.

Lov the boat, lov the price!

This is my first wake boat, I just traded in my 2008 185 Sea Ray on the Moomba LSV 2010. I was looking for something which has a little something for everyone in my family. My 6yr daughter loves being in the bow, so got the filler cousion to make the playpen. My wife loves laying in the sun, so the boat has a nice sun deck/pad. My 16yr son likes tubing and just hanging out with his buds, so need a boat with some room.....and last but not least, I like watching my family having fun. We haven't tried wake surfing yet but look forward to it :cool:

kaneboats
02-15-2011, 02:35 PM
Order up your 750 or 1100 fatsac and get a board. It's a lot of fun!

Sea N' Things
02-15-2011, 02:44 PM
Well guys, just had a GREAT conversation with John at SC, he has assured me that this issue has been fixed from 09 forward. Since 09 they changed the adhesive and fitting process between hull and deck. Guess I'm in the clear but will follow to see if any 09,10 or 11's have problems. Just to be on the safe side I will also be adding an inspection/access plate to keep an eye on things down there.

Razzman
02-15-2011, 04:06 PM
That's great for you fortunately ... unfortunately the rest of us are still screwed. :cool:

rdlangston13
02-15-2011, 11:04 PM
call john back and tell him he needs to fix my 08

wolfeman131
02-17-2011, 01:37 PM
I just purchased a left over 2010 Moomba Mobius LSV at the local boat show for what I think a good price. I'm wanting to know if this year is affected as well? I would like the contact info at SC, name and ext, please. I think I will get some sort of additional paper work covering me in the future. Option 2, move into a 2011 or jump up into a Supra. Any advive?

If #2 is a viable option, don't let your wife know that SC said you are in the clear and go buy a 2011 Supra Launch 22V. I'll come up when the snow melts and help you break it in. :)

Sea N' Things
02-17-2011, 03:29 PM
You read my mind, I have been looking into the 22ssv. BIG price difference, not sure if its worth it. Got my Moomba LSV for 51k + 5% GST (tax), the Supra 22 SSV is like 16-18k more (mid to high 60's). It would not really matter much to the dealer which boat i go with as they are both new and I didn't take ownership of the Moomba yet, just a 25k deposit. :)

Stay or upgrade, what say you?????