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bzubke1
01-01-2011, 11:07 PM
We always turn the batteries to the off position after use. One day we forgot to turn the batteries back on but the engine still started and ran fine, after a couple minutes we noticed none of the accessories were working and we left the perko switch in the "off" position. I'm sure there is a problem just not sure what it is?

We had a local audio guy install the second battery and perko switch so I'm not sure if he did everything right I wasn't to excited about the quality of the rest of his work, I ended up redoing most of it anyways.

bzubke1
01-01-2011, 11:11 PM
I also noticed that the stock positive and negatives cables are hooked straight to the starting battery, I'm thinking this is wrong.

DOCDRS
01-02-2011, 12:24 AM
Sounds like it is hooked up wrong. This way you are unable to control the battery charging from the motor. Look in your manual or the 08 download it will show you how it should be set up. Although there are other ways it can be setup depending how you want the charging and draining of your batteries to to be determined.

The + motor should be going to your common on the perko switch then 1+, 2+ to your batteries respectively. this will control which battery will be charged or both but also which battery/s will be used to start your engine.

mmandley
01-02-2011, 11:31 AM
Check this link out it explains it all perfectly

http://continuouswave.com/whaler/reference/dualBattery.html

If you run more then 2 batteries like i do then you just piggy back them all off the second battery simply positive to positive and negative to negative.

FYI sounds like to me he ran the Alternator line to the center post in the Perko and ran the starter directly to the battery still. Then ran the fuse panel power to the perko as well.

So in effect he is only controlling the charging system of the boat and not the starting system as well

bzubke1
01-02-2011, 12:28 PM
I just went and checked it out. He wired the common post on the perko to the circuit breaker. Then #1 goes to the stereo battery and #2 goes to the stock battery. I also noticed there was a little red blue sea fuse block that he connected straight to the positive of the stereo battery. Is all this good or should I work on changing it?

EarmarkMarine
01-02-2011, 01:37 PM
It is truely just as simple as the above schematic implies except that the diagram doesn't inclube all the elements of adding a stereo.
When you add a second battery and a dual battery switch then:
All negatives are interconnected.
The two battery positives connect ONLY to poles 1 and 2 respectively on the switch.
ALL other positive cables and connections including the alternator feed, helm buss breaker and stereo amplifier/electronics go to the 'common' lug on the dual battery switch. No exceptions (note to follow). The starter feed is already parallel with the alternator at the engine so you don't have to be concerned with this one.
Exceptions: If you want you can run the stereo memory directly to the intended stereo or 'at rest' accessory battery. But this is not suitable for long term storage beyond two weeks. Much less if you've put the battery up with less than a full charge which happens with big stereos and short trips back to the trailer. So if you don't want instant memory loss with every switch use then add a small switch or disconnect to the memory feed for long term storage.
The other exception is if you have a bilge float switch/pump and you leave your boat unattended or stored in the water (like the old days before lifts).

David
Earmark Marine

bzubke1
01-02-2011, 01:38 PM
I went and looked at it a little closer and it is the fuse for the stock kicker amp so thats all good.

DOCDRS
01-02-2011, 01:45 PM
can you post a pic of your set up, do you have a vsr or just a switch?

bzubke1
01-02-2011, 02:42 PM
David, if I understand what you're saying I should have the big positive battery cable and all the battery cables for the amp wired to the common post of the perko switch. How do you get all this to fit on that one post.

Doc, I only have the perko switch.

Here's the mess I'm working with hopefully the labels help out and make sense.

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k58/bzubke1/batterysetup.jpg

DOCDRS
01-02-2011, 03:12 PM
Here is another way to set it up as per oem. This way allows you to control your battery charging.
Davids will work but in reality to hook all the +ve to the common lug of the switch is impractical imo.
Looks like the guy was too lazy to change the terminal on the engine +ve.

With the way it is set up now the only way you can charge your stereo battery is to set it to both setting, the switch is only changing which battery will operate your acc bus


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2745/4087962437_04e23344a5_z.jpg

DOCDRS
01-02-2011, 03:34 PM
run your stock wire to the common post on the switch and you will be set. when you are sitting running your stereo with engine off for long periods make sure the switch is not at both as you will drain both batteries.

bzubke1
01-02-2011, 03:43 PM
So basically what I need to do is get a new terminal for the engine positive cable and wire that to the common lug on the perko switch and I'll be all set, other than cleaning up all the crappy wiring. Do I leave the existing wire the goes from the circuit breaker to the common lug?

What do you mean when you say "acc bus"?

I appreciate all the help. We figured out there was something wrong in the beginning of summer but didn't want to mess with it until winter, as a result we never really used our stereo when sitting cause we weren't confident that the perko was hooked up right. I'm really looking forward to being able to use the stereo when sitting again.

EarmarkMarine
01-02-2011, 03:58 PM
My recommended method excludes the use of an ACR/VSR which is an entirely different switching scheme as we apply it.
As for fitting everything on the common post of the dual battery switch, we use a distribution block. Makes for a tidy install. And when we add a switch we always convert the alternator cable termination from a battery clamp to a ring terminal that fits the 5/16th-inch common post on the dual battery switch.
Here is the reason that I follow an extremely simple scheme for dual battery switching and include the helm buss and all amplifier wiring in my explanation. I don't want to leave any stone unturned. If someone differentiates between the helm buss and amplifier supplies then you can easily introduce noise problems and potentially damage your audio electronics, both in the amplifier input section and the fragile source unit preout section. Your source unit usually obtains its supply from the factory harness which is supplied via the helm buss. If you set up the switching so that there is a chance that one battery feeds the source unit and the other battery feeds the amplifier then the audio equipment can circumvent the dual battery isolation provided by the switch. The two batteries will undoubtedly have different levels of charge and will seek to level this imbalance through the lowest resistive path which in this case would be the RCA shield connecting the source and amplifier. Even though the amplifier input impedance is perhaps 10kOhm, the potential will still flow. And the audio path will not take kindly to the flow of DC voltage not to mention the noise that you will incur. Thus, EVERYTHING goes to the switch and NOTHING goes battery-direct.
Its just so simple and foolproof that there really isn't a good reason to do it any other way. Also, I don't like setting up a scenerio that is different from the most conventional application and therefore is prone to operating mistakes or misinterpretation by another service entity.
Again, the method that I would recommend has no bearing on systems that include a voltage sensing solenoid or relay. That's a completely different story.

David
Earmark Marine

DOCDRS
01-02-2011, 04:30 PM
David, if he were to move the motor +ve to the common post on the switch and then runs the main breaker to the stereo/acc battery has he not isolated everything from the other battery?

Oh and once you get into multple amps I would strongly suggest a vsr to help take some of the work out of battery charging. And yes a distributiion block is ideal, just looking for an easy fix, if you go that route, why not use those extra dollars on a vsr.

David, are you then suggesting the oem setup with the bep vsr is flawed?

bzubke1
01-02-2011, 06:29 PM
So basically I would take one of these.
http://www.earmarkcaraudio.com/Xcart/product.php?productid=17006&cat=311&page=1

Then wire the engine positive, the wire from the circuit breaker, and the positive cables from all three amplifiers to this distribution block. then I would only need one wire from the distribution block to the common lug on the perko switch. Then all I would need to do is run a wire from #1 on the perko to the starting battery, and a wire from #2 on the perko to the stereo battery. Does all this sound correct?

Thanks for the suggestion David I can see how this will make for a much cleaner installation and that is what I'm going for.

cab13367
01-02-2011, 08:14 PM
David, if I understand what you're saying I should have the big positive battery cable and all the battery cables for the amp wired to the common post of the perko switch. How do you get all this to fit on that one post.

Doc, I only have the perko switch.

Here's the mess I'm working with hopefully the labels help out and make sense.

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k58/bzubke1/batterysetup.jpg

bzubke1,

That black circuit breaker with the red push button feeds the helm/acc buss (it's a metal strip under the dash with several screws on it). This buss powers things like your ballast pumps, blower, dash electronics, stereo head unit, bilge pump, lights, etc. This is the only thing being controlled by your Perko switch. The starter is hard wired to your starting battery and your amps are all hard wired to your 2nd battery. That's why you can start the boat with the Perko in the off position.

Also, the charging current from the alternator is carried by the large positive cable that is connected to your starting battery. So the only way that your 2nd battery is getting charged with the engine running is if the Perko is in the "Common" position because in that position, the positives of both batteries are connected so the charge current is being applied to both batteries. When the Perko is in the 1 or 2 position, your 2nd battery is not receiving any charge current from the alternator.

So you've got some work to do :)

Al

DOCDRS
01-02-2011, 09:05 PM
do some research into acr/vsr"s........blue sea and bep marine make these.....they are automatic charging relay/voltage sensitive relays......they let you make the most of a 2 battery system. I think everyone who has a 2 battery system will agree for about $85- 120 it is the way to go......plus it will help your batteries last longer
Al (Cab)did a great post on installing one i think

bzubke....how have you been keeping your stereo battery charged up till now?

bzubke1
01-02-2011, 09:26 PM
Anytime I run the boat the switch has always been in the "all" position so I would assume the battery is charged, not to mention I'm always running the boat. If were on the water the engine is always running except between riders.

DOCDRS
01-02-2011, 09:32 PM
Then when your stopped listening to the stereo you just need to switch it to 1 or 2 if your sitting for a prolonged period of time if you want to go with Davids setup

cab13367
01-02-2011, 11:09 PM
Anytime I run the boat the switch has always been in the "all" position so I would assume the battery is charged, not to mention I'm always running the boat. If were on the water the engine is always running except between riders.

Yes, if you have been keeping it in the "All" position, then both batteries are being charged when the engine is running. And both batteries are being drained when the engine is off and you are listening to the stereo. If you put in on either "1" or "2", only the 2nd battery is being drained by your stereo. But remember to switch it back to "All" when you get going again or the stereo battery will not charge. This is why I went with an ACR - so I don't have to worry about switching it back and forth. I just put it in the "ON" position and leave it.

bzubke1
01-03-2011, 12:08 AM
So I think I've got a handle on what i need to do to make sure everything is working properly. Let me know if there is anything wrong with what I've drawn up. Also I didn't include the grounds in the diagram because I know what to do with them and it would make the diagram too busy and confusing.
Thanks a lot guys.

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k58/bzubke1/Batterywiring.jpg

EarmarkMarine
01-03-2011, 10:34 AM
The illustration and distribution block looks good to me. Just introduce a very large breaker between the Perko switch and the distribution block and as close to the power source as possible. This is not redundant protection for your amplifiers, rather solely protection for your boat in the case of an accident. Either 2 or 4-gauge wire will transfer enough current to start a fire before burning through. You have enough depth on the 'common' post for three terminal lugs in case you don't want two breakers (master for amplifiers and helm buss) in series. Add up the fusing, or recommended protection, for your three amplifiers and take 80 to 100 percent of that for your master audio breaker. The current draw will never be entirely coincidental on the three amplifiers.
A voltage sensing ACR/VSR is automatic, very convenient and can protect your alternator against an excessive load in which it was not intended for. This can, however, produce the opposite affect for protecting batteries...note that protecting your alternator and batteries are often in conflict. Here is a scenerio. If at rest with dual stereo batteries or a massive stereo battery/bank (representing serious amp/hours) and it is cycled very deep, the initial current draw of the depleted batteries can under certain circumstances keep the ACR/VSR open or it can momentarily close and bounce open again as the voltage instantly drops. This is usually compounded by a short trip back to the trailer, low rpms while going through the no-wake zone, idling while waiting in line at the ramp and continuing to play the stereo (worse if played hard). This encourages a deeper cycle. Even deep cycle batteries will tolerate frequency in cycles much better than deeper cycles for longevity. This is why I recommend that anyone who is using an ACR/VSR invests in a smart AC dual-bank multi-stage high-current (at least 10 percent of your total battery(s)' amp/hour capacity) battery charger. This will at least help to eliminate any potential conflict between preserving batteries and the alternator.
There are certain switch and ACR/VSR packages with switching functions and directional sensing that better address the priorities of big stereo accessories, namely keeping the two battery banks isolated once the AC charger raises the voltage level. You don't want to circumvent the intended dual bank profile and charge cycle.
On another note, overall system and especially amplifier effeciency, is another great way to protect and prolong your batteries. An amplifier that is 60 percent more efficient will cycle the battery 60 percent shallower and as mentioned previously depth of cycle has far more to do with shortening lifespan duration than quantity of cycles. Inefficient systems need bigger batteries to maintain long play time at rest and depleted batteries of greater capacity place more strain on alternators and compound the function of ACR/VSRs.

David
Earmark Marine

dusty2221
01-03-2011, 10:41 AM
David, you bring up something I have been meaing to ask about. I have the VSR that came factory with the batterly selector, and the one wire that runs out of it runs to the Stereo battery ground. I also have an onboard Pro Mariner dual bank charger for when the boat is on the trailer. I've noticed, when the charger kicks in, the VSR clicks, and the Red light comes on indicating the VSR is limiting voltage from the charger (I think?)

The way I understand you post, the VSR is actually doing more harm than good in the sense that it is not allowing the charger to work as it is intended. Would you recommend removing the VSR, or make another suggestion?

sandm
01-03-2011, 10:43 AM
I know that this subject has been beat to death in other threads, but I'll detail how mine is wired and feedback is welcome..

picked up the boat from skiers wired this way, but the speakers were all jacked on the factory kenwood setup so they paid a local shop to rewire the system(not boat dealer) and they left all the power/grounds alone so I just followed suite..

I have the factory '06 perko switch but also have what I think is a vsr unit as it has it's own ground(very small gauge black wire).
one battery has the boat starting wire off positive and ground
one battery has all the amps and the main wire going to the buss under the helm
the batteries are grounded together
each battery has a positive wire heading to the perko, side 1 is the starting battery-side 2 is the stereo/helm battery
one main alt. wire connected to the common post.

this is completely different than the setup you all describe, but is it due to the vsr?

I kind of figured that it was ok since both skiers and the stereo shop left it alone and I have not ever had an issue with a battery and failure to start, even after 4 hrs of listening time with no engine time(never "hard" time, but just on at average listening levels)..

thoughts?

KG's Supra24
01-03-2011, 10:50 AM
sandm, i have the same setup as you.

I haven't had any issues either. I have been rebuilding my stereo this winter and was reading through this thread and it is quickly complicating what i thought i knew was right.

I feel like our setup is good, based solely on the fact neither of us has had any issues. I actually don't think i touched mine all summer. Just left it on 1 & 2.

It sounds like we are controlling the recharging (with the vsr) but not the power being pulled from the batteries?

sandm
01-03-2011, 11:32 AM
that's kind of the way I see it. I can't imagine that the stereo is pulling a load off the starting battery if you switch the perko to the stereo battery, I would think it would "break" the connection between the starting and stereo battery and that's what I envisioned the ultimate goal being so that you can still start the boat and get home.

could be way off base, but so far have not had any issues with the setup as-is. I see some crazy wiring around the boat, but I have to assume that skiers is hooking up their vsr correctly as I know every boat I have come across from them has been wired the same way.

EarmarkMarine
01-03-2011, 11:45 AM
Forgive me but I am a bit of a perfectionist and tend to analize all the details that many others overlook. Plus, in our many customer encounters we see individual usage that varies widely so in other words, we see it all. This is not a dire situation. BEP does their manual switching a little different from Blue Sea which is a little different than how we approach it.
Any of these ACR/VSR systems do their automatic voltage sensing switching out on the lake just as they should. Are there certain circumstances that are less than optimum? Sure. But you can work around them if you understand what is going on with your system. Plus, a good AC charger as I described rectifies most of the day in day out issues.
And, some of these systems have a manual switch appendage that will switch everything under the sun except the main function that I am most looking for which is dual bank isolated shore charging when the battery charge is high enough that the ACR/VSR keeps the two banks combined.

David
Earmark Marine

EarmarkMarine
01-03-2011, 12:19 PM
I'll clarify something completely different so everyone understands the point correctly (I hope).
Let's say you have a Group 24 as your starting battery and two Group 31 AGMs as your 'stereo at rest' bank. Let's say that you run the stereo bank down to empty (less than 12 volts). Those two big depleted batteries can initially represent a collective 50 to 60 amps of draw. If the big stereo is played continously once underway again that could easily represent another 35 amps conservatively. 15 amps to run the boat ignition and operations. So we've got 100 amps of draw for the short term until we a) shut off the stereo for awhile or b) get up the rpms and burn some gas to get a a bit of restoration. Keep in mind that the separation threshold and the combining threshold are just a volt apart and that the starting battery has been somewhat depleted before the two banks are separated. Now, you've got an older boat with a 70 amp alternator, but that's only peak at 2500 rpm and above. All 'what ifs' so far. But,you can see in this scenerio that the sensing solenoid will not combine instantly and the considerable draw of the boat, stereo and depleted stereo batteries can immediately cause the voltage to sag which can bounce the solenoid back open. If the draw is greater than the combined alternator output and starting battery capacity then the alternator is not getting a charge to the stereo bank. After awhile, with enough time & rpms & gas, this will automatically correct itself.
Unfortuneately we have SOME, not all, boat owners that complain that their play time with every following weekend seems to be in decline and that if left unresolved they have to replace their batteries prematurely. We reply, " of course... under certain circumstances give the stereo some time off so the auto sensing relay/solenoid can do its job and get a real battery charger." Once they follow our advice they have no more issues and get a full 5 seasons out of their batteries.
You see ACR/VSR producers envisioned the moderate draw of instrumentation but didn't anticipate the considerable draw of a 100 amp+ stereo. So while they are advertised as fully automatic you still have to understand what is actually happening and supplement this with a manual switch, a battery charger and a little discipline.

David
Earmark Marine

dusty2221
01-03-2011, 01:04 PM
David, you bring up something I have been meaing to ask about. I have the VSR that came factory with the batterly selector, and the one wire that runs out of it runs to the Stereo battery ground. I also have an onboard Pro Mariner dual bank charger for when the boat is on the trailer. I've noticed, when the charger kicks in, the VSR clicks, and the Red light comes on indicating the VSR is limiting voltage from the charger (I think?)

The way I understand you post, the VSR is actually doing more harm than good in the sense that it is not allowing the charger to work as it is intended. Would you recommend removing the VSR, or make another suggestion?

David, can you simplify the answer for this regarding the VSR and it allowing my charger to do what it is intended for?

Brian, do you have input?

bzubke1
01-03-2011, 02:39 PM
The illustration and distribution block looks good to me. Just introduce a very large breaker between the Perko switch and the distribution block and as close to the power source as possible. This is not redundant protection for your amplifiers, rather solely protection for your boat in the case of an accident. Either 2 or 4-gauge wire will transfer enough current to start a fire before burning through. You have enough depth on the 'common' post for three terminal lugs in case you don't want two breakers (master for amplifiers and helm buss) in series. Add up the fusing, or recommended protection, for your three amplifiers and take 80 to 100 percent of that for your master audio breaker. The current draw will never be entirely coincidental on the three amplifiers.
A voltage sensing ACR/VSR is automatic, very convenient and can protect your alternator against an excessive load in which it was not intended for. This can, however, produce the opposite affect for protecting batteries...note that protecting your alternator and batteries are often in conflict. Here is a scenerio. If at rest with dual stereo batteries or a massive stereo battery/bank (representing serious amp/hours) and it is cycled very deep, the initial current draw of the depleted batteries can under certain circumstances keep the ACR/VSR open or it can momentarily close and bounce open again as the voltage instantly drops. This is usually compounded by a short trip back to the trailer, low rpms while going through the no-wake zone, idling while waiting in line at the ramp and continuing to play the stereo (worse if played hard). This encourages a deeper cycle. Even deep cycle batteries will tolerate frequency in cycles much better than deeper cycles for longevity. This is why I recommend that anyone who is using an ACR/VSR invests in a smart AC dual-bank multi-stage high-current (at least 10 percent of your total battery(s)' amp/hour capacity) battery charger. This will at least help to eliminate any potential conflict between preserving batteries and the alternator.
There are certain switch and ACR/VSR packages with switching functions and directional sensing that better address the priorities of big stereo accessories, namely keeping the two battery banks isolated once the AC charger raises the voltage level. You don't want to circumvent the intended dual bank profile and charge cycle.
On another note, overall system and especially amplifier effeciency, is another great way to protect and prolong your batteries. An amplifier that is 60 percent more efficient will cycle the battery 60 percent shallower and as mentioned previously depth of cycle has far more to do with shortening lifespan duration than quantity of cycles. Inefficient systems need bigger batteries to maintain long play time at rest and depleted batteries of greater capacity place more strain on alternators and compound the function of ACR/VSRs.

David
Earmark Marine

Thanks David I appreciate all the help. One last question, where would I find how much the fusing or recommended protection for each amp is?

EarmarkMarine
01-03-2011, 02:54 PM
The owners manual almost always has this info. Or, the manufacturer website or, the dealer that you purchased from. If you can't find any data then take the 2-ohm total power (wattage) divided by 12 volts. Its crude but this should represent the maximum or peak amperage given that the music program material is transient and not constant like a DC bulb.
A little less for music and add a bit more for Rap or Hip Hop. Just kidding.

David
Earmark Marine

bzubke1
01-03-2011, 04:11 PM
The sum of the fuse recommendations for all my current amps is 110 amps but I plan on upgrading the subwoofer amp this spring that will bring the sum of fuse recommendations up to 140. Is it ok to get a 150 amp breaker and run it with my current setup until I upgrade?

EarmarkMarine
01-03-2011, 06:14 PM
Absolutely okay. While you want the minimum in respect to the equipment, remember that this breaker is really for the benefit of the boat.

blaynedmathis
03-25-2011, 11:43 PM
David, if I understand what you're saying I should have the big positive battery cable and all the battery cables for the amp wired to the common post of the perko switch. How do you get all this to fit on that one post.

Doc, I only have the perko switch.

Here's the mess I'm working with hopefully the labels help out and make sense.

http://i85.photobucket.com/albums/k58/bzubke1/batterysetup.jpg


bzubke1, What size wire is that in your photos?

I'm planning a dual battery / dual amp setup and am unsure what will work with the Perko and all. I'm looking at a 40A fused amp (manual calls for 8 gauge) and a 70A fused amp (which recommends 4 gauge). I'm going to run a distribution block to the amps, but I'm not sure what to run from the batteries to the perko and from the perko to the distribution block. Will 1/0 fit the perko? If not, or not worth it, I'm thinking 4 gauge should be enough...

Thanks in advance

NCSUmoomba
03-27-2011, 11:27 AM
Plus 1 for the ACR system. It is so nice to just turn it form "Off' to "On" and not have to think about it. I do have to use a AC charger for my house (stereo) battery because my alternator will not charge it.

If any of you guys are curious, you should be able to get the manufacturers wiring diagrams from their websites. I got the ones for the Blue Sea "Add-a-battery" kit before I bought mine, so I could go through the wiring so I understood it.

Also, I may be mis-remembering, but I thought that I read in the literature that my ACR prioritizes the charging to my starting battery first, and then charges the house battery? Is that even possible?