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Sea N' Things
02-22-2011, 03:00 PM
I know, I know.....alot of you are saying here we go again!!!:D

Hi guys, trying to get all my ducks in a row for an audio upgrade. I currently have the ZX250.2 (stock) powering the 2 Roswell tower speakers and the DX200.4 (stock) powering the bow and cockpit speakers. I am wanting to add a sub and 2 additional tower speakers with all Kicker products. What's my cheapest option? I guess I can buy the ZXM700.5 to run the four tower speakers and sub (KM10) and use the DX200.4 for the four cabin speakers and the ZX250.2 for the two bow speakers. How does this sound for an audio upgrade solution, will this config work? Another question do I need the sub enclosure or is there enough room for it to be recessed as I do have a heater just in behind the helm toe kick? As far as tower speakers I'm either going with the KM6500.2 or KM6500, depending on price.

Hey Kicker man (Phil) need more input....if you sell to the gereral public shoot me your email at rjsnyder@telus.net for pricing. Thanks a bunch :)

sandm
02-22-2011, 04:20 PM
just add a dedicated kicker sub amp and a sub. running your towers and sub off the same amp puts a heavy load on that single amp. kickers will handle it, but there's a lot of talk on here over the years about running your 2 most heavily demand areas of the boat off the same amp.
not having a ton of experience with kicker products, I wouldn't see why a 250.2 would not be capable of running 4 tower speakers?

flex
02-22-2011, 04:57 PM
I know, I know.....alot of you are saying here we go again!!!:D

Hi guys, trying to get all my ducks in a row for an audio upgrade. I currently have the ZX250.2 (stock) powering the 2 Roswell tower speakers and the DX200.4 (stock) powering the bow and cockpit speakers. I am wanting to add a sub and 2 additional tower speakers with all Kicker products. What's my cheapest option? I guess I can buy the ZXM700.5 to run the four tower speakers and sub (KM10) and use the DX200.4 for the four cabin speakers and the ZX250.2 for the two bow speakers. How does this sound for an audio upgrade solution, will this config work? Another question do I need the sub enclosure or is there enough room for it to be recessed as I do have a heater just in behind the helm toe kick? As far as tower speakers I'm either going with the KM6500.2 or KM6500, depending on price.

Hey Kicker man (Phil) need more input....if you sell to the gereral public shoot me your email at rjsnyder@telus.net for pricing. Thanks a bunch :)

i have a similar set up you are describing , except i have two amps. if you do any wakeboarding you will want the hlcd's. i installed mine this past friday & the rider can hear them as if they are sitting in the boat and still have plenty of volume to spare. it's worth the upgrade. i don't have a heater, but my km10 is in a ported box under the helm & is sitting on top of the hump. should be a pic in my album.

zxm700.5--powers 6500.2 hlcd speakers & one km10
zx200.4--powers six km613 cabin speakers.

http://moomba.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=13775

brain_rinse
02-22-2011, 06:01 PM
just add a dedicated kicker sub amp and a sub.
This would be my vote as well. And I'd get more amp than you think you need. You never know when you might want to upgrade to a larger/higher power sub.

EarmarkMarine
02-22-2011, 07:21 PM
Sea,
The Kicker 700.5 is a good solution that will drive a sub and six in-boat coaxials. Bridging the highpass channels of the 700.5 still comes up a touch light for a pair of HLCDs.
If I'm running a single pair of Kicker HLCDs at 4-ohms then two bridged ZX250.2s would be perfect for the tower. However, this wouldn't allow you to run a second pair of Kicker midbass drivers. If you are running the six-pack version of the Kicker HLCDs then you really need to upgrade the tower amplifier to a really large two-channel...something that is rated at around 250watts per channel or more into 2-ohms.

David
Earmark Marine

Sea N' Things
02-22-2011, 08:58 PM
What would be my best (cheapest) upgrade by keeping what I have and adding to run a sub and a set of KM6500.2 (not triples)?

EarmarkMarine
02-22-2011, 09:20 PM
Absolute cheapest way to go?
The existing 250.2 will run the sub if you choose something that is moderate mass and easy to drive. A JL Audio 10-inch 4-ohm would be around $70. An upgrade JL WO series might be $20 more. The Kicker marine woofer will work too.
The existing Kicker 4-channel can run the six in-boat speakers. A JL Audio JX 360 watt 4-channel is just over $200 and once bridged will deliver 180 watts to each Kicker HLCD tower speaker. Kicker should also have an amplifier in this range.
So one additional amplifier, one raw subwoofer, one pair of HLCDs and four good quality powdercoated tower pods might have a street price of around$1000.
This example certainly isn't the cheapest but is based on name brand, high quality gear with a known origin.

David
Earmark Marine

harmsway
02-22-2011, 09:21 PM
Sea,
I added 2 pair of HLCD tower speakers (4 HLCD w/ 8" mids) & I used a Rockford Fosgate T600-2 amp. It came with actual spec sheet & was pushing 374 rms per channel @ 2 ohms and very low THD. They are extremely clear & loud and you can pick up one of these amps for under $300.00.

Sea N' Things
02-22-2011, 10:31 PM
Thx for all your input, this is what I am thinking:

Existing ZX250.2 will power the NEW KM10 sub
Existing DX200.4 will power existing bow and cabin 6 speakers
NEW ZMX350.4 will power 4 tower speakers

Shopping List:
KM10" sub
MX350.4
4 tower speakers

How does this sound, will this config work????:confused:

EarmarkMarine
02-22-2011, 10:38 PM
That works.

David
Earmark Marine

brain_rinse
02-22-2011, 10:55 PM
You may want to look at a 2 channel amp for the 4 tower speakers depending on which ones you choose. But it sounds like you've got a great system in the works!

Sea N' Things
02-22-2011, 11:01 PM
What would my advantages be going with a 2 ch vs 4 ch? I am going with the KM6500 or HLCD - Km6500.2, depending on price. I may even just try and get another set of Roswell R6 speakers as I have one set already, just for the time being......I don't do much wakeboarding at all, mostly surfing and lounging around.

brain_rinse
02-22-2011, 11:54 PM
This is where those super smart audio guys are nice to have around. Since you've said you're going all Kicker, I'd say pick your tower speakers first then run it by Phil to get his take on the right amp.

The reason I suggested asking about a 2 channel is that many 4 channel amps aren't 2 ohm stable when bridged. So if hypothetically you wanted to run your 4 tower speakers (4 ohms each) in parallel sets (2 ohms) you'd likely be better off with a 2 channel that pumps out its max power at 2 ohms. If you had a 4 channel this configuration likely isn't an option. But this all totally dependent on your speakers and what you're trying to accomplish.

EarmarkMarine
02-23-2011, 12:35 AM
The four-channel amplifier bridged into two-channels fits the single pair of Kicker HLCDs without the second pair of midbass drivers. This would be a 4-ohm load.
With the six-pack comprised of the base system including the second set of midbass drivers, this would be a 2-ohm load. This requires a two-channel amplifer run in stereo.
The first scenerio is optimized with a four-channel amplifier but doesn't give you the ability to upgrade to a second set of midbass drivers later on. To have this option in the future you would need to run a two-channel amplifier.
And, you would go much larger in power class for two reasons. First, you would go larger in power to offset the power reduction into a 4-ohm load. You would like to have a rating of 175 to 200 watts per channel into 4-ohms to fit the base HLCD package. This might equate to a 300 to 400 watts per channel rating into 2-ohms which would suit the six-pack version.
The admission price of going with the larger two-channel amplifier would be more initially and a little less cost effective with the base system but would have the advantage of never becoming obsolete in the event of the expansion. That in itself could be a big savings.

David
Earmark Marine

Sea N' Things
02-23-2011, 09:59 AM
This is all so Greek to me! So with that being said what exactly do I need to buy????:confused:

EarmarkMarine
02-23-2011, 10:19 AM
Sea,
Yes, the substantiating details do get tedious...even for me. But, there is only one question that will determine which amplifier is right for you.
If you are going to stay with a single pair of Kicker HLCDs (which constitutes two horns and two midbass total) then you should get the 4-channel amplifier that you referenced. However, if there is any chance that you will be adding at any time a second pair of the Kicker 6.5" midbass drivers then you must switch to the larger 2-channel amplifier that I described. Nothing more to it.

David
Earmark Marine

Sea N' Things
02-23-2011, 10:25 AM
Now that makes it simple for me thank you David. I REALLY appreciate everyone's input and thank you so much :) Hey David, the below equipment should work fine together with the stated config????? If by chance I don't go with the HLCD's this will still work fine with regular 6.5" speakers?

Config:
Existing ZX250.2 will power the NEW KM10 sub
Existing DX200.4 will power existing bow and cabin 6 speakers
NEW ZMX350.4 will power 4 tower speakers

Shopping List:
KM10" sub
MX350.4
4 tower speakers

EarmarkMarine
02-23-2011, 12:01 PM
Sea,
Sorry, I just can't do simple. I can only do concise.
No, the 4-channel amplifier may not be the correct choice to drive four conventional coaxials.
Here is the difference.
The Kicker four speaker HLCD set-up is comprised of two separate tweeters and two separate midbass. This constitutes a final 4-ohm load.
Four Kicker conventional coaxials represents a final 2-ohm load.
I know that it appears to be four total speaker pods in any case but these two configurations are completely different in their make-up.
I can only suggest that you error on the side of going with a larger two channel amplifier on the tower so that you have a single amplifier solution that provides for every option.
I could hit you with all the long winded options and all the supporting and boring technical details but the outcome will still be the same.
Go with a little larger 2-channel amplifier and never look back.
David
Earmark Marine

Sea N' Things
02-23-2011, 01:02 PM
Thanks again David, I just talked to Kicker tech support, does this make sence.

If I add two additional Roswell R6's to the two I have, all four can be powered by the Kicker ZX250.2 (so i'm told). If I am wanting to add a Kicker KM10 it can be power by a Kicker ZX200.2 or a Kicker DX125.2. I really can not see me upgrading to HLCD's :( I am just looking for a good sound at a good price while lounging around and swimming......

Sea N' Things
02-23-2011, 01:25 PM
Thanks again David, I just talked to Kicker tech support, does this make sence.

If I add two additional Roswell R6's to the two I have, all four can be powered by the Kicker ZX250.2 (so i'm told). If I am wanting to add a Kicker KM10 it can be power by a Kicker ZX200.2 or a Kicker DX125.2. I really can not see me upgrading to HLCD's :( I am just looking for a good sound at a good price while lounging around and swimming......

Another question, why does Moomba install car audio equipment, ie ZX and DX, instead of "MARINE" equipment ZXM?

EarmarkMarine
02-23-2011, 01:55 PM
Sea,
Now that you have resolved exactly what you're doing on the tower you have a firing solution. Its all good exactly as you have stated especially within the budget confines.
As for the marine vs non-marine I'll leave that to Phil rather than having to delicately tip toe around the issue. Oops! Too late. I just did.

David
Earmark Marine

brain_rinse
02-23-2011, 01:58 PM
I knew an audio pro would come in and get these questions answered. Thanks again, David!

Sea N' Things
02-23-2011, 02:03 PM
You guys are the best :) Thank you again David. As far as car audio vs marine, lets just say that Kicker makes the best equipment and EVEN their car audio stuff is to a marine standard.....LOL.

Thank you once again for the reassurance!

brain_rinse
02-23-2011, 02:07 PM
Another question, why does Moomba install car audio equipment, ie ZX and DX, instead of "MARINE" equipment ZXM?
My short answer is that I think there is a big difference between what we wakeboaters call marine and the offshore boaters call marine. :)

Sea N' Things
02-23-2011, 03:13 PM
I'm reading a little more on the web and finding out exactly how ohms, watts,and channels are relative to one another....rrrrrr

I think I can put the ZX250.2 on the KM10 sub (300w peak/150w rms), over kill....YES! but I will be utilizing the existing sub.

Then get a ZX450.2 on the 4 Roswell R6 (120w peak/5w min rms) @ 2 ohms instead of 4 ohms. Which would give me a little more volume range.

Just thinking about what you had mentioned earlier David, it would be better to buy a good 2ch amp if I did not go HLCD route.

Please tell me I have this right????;) SRY for opening the can of worms again!

brain_rinse
02-23-2011, 03:33 PM
As long as you get the right amount of power to the speakers it doesn't matter if you're doing it at 2 ohms or 4. Also ignore those peak ratings and only focus on RMS.

If you see yourself possibly upgrading to the Kicker HLCDs down the road then do yourself a favor and get the right amp right now. The 450.2 is only 150 watts RMS x 2 at 4 ohms, and for the Kicker HLCDs (set of 4) this wouldn't be enough power. It would actually be better suited to the 6 pack where you'd have a 2 ohm load and get 225 watts x 2. See, this is where you tower speaker choice makes a big difference on what amp you need.

Poison
03-03-2011, 08:37 PM
I've been working on some upgrades myself and emailing David a bit for prices. Also giving myself a crash course in audio equip. Here is what I'm looking at and a couple of questions. Maybe you guys can help out.

I have six cabin speakers, four tower speakers (Roswell lightbar/speaker combo that came with boat), and a stock Kicker Sub. The cabins are pushed from the head unit and the others are pushed by a stock Kicker KAC-X542. Here are the stats on the 542:

CEA-2006 RMS Power Output
- Normal (4 ohm / 4ch) - 88w (2 ohm / 4ch) - 124w
- Bridged(4 ohm / 2ch) 270w x 2

I plan to buy a Kicker KM6500.2 set for the tower and an amp for the cabin speakers/sub. I don't ever plan to add the additional midrange speakers to make the 6-pack.

As I understand it, the 6500.2 wires to a 4 ohm load on two channels. So I could run them with my existing amp bridged at 270w x 2 with no probs right? That would leave me only needing an amp for the sub and cabins.

As far as the cabin/sub goes, most people seem to run a 5 channel amp. Do you run put the front speakers on two channels, the back four speakers (wired series?) into two channels, and the sub into the fifth?

Any help would be appreciated. I laughed at myself the other day when I realized how frustrating it is to have an engineering degree but not be able to figure out car stereos.

EarmarkMarine
03-03-2011, 09:12 PM
Poison,
Typically the four cockpit coaxials will run in parallel on two channels. These are symmetrically located and should have equal power driving all four speakers. The bow speakers will be alone on two channels because a) this is a different and smaller area that needs to be gained separately, and b) its nice to have the option to control this area independently, either for small children or others who may want a bit of a retreat from the sound if you're playing it loud in the cockpit.
Btw, we finished a Yamaha today with the base Kicker KM6200.2 HLCD package (that included a single pair of midbass). There's no better way to retro four Roswell pods. With the continuous cone you get more surface area than a coaxial style and with the smaller midbass neo motor plus the horn compression driver in the alternate pod, you get more available pod displacement left over for the midbass driver. They were driven by four channels bridged into two (200 watts per channel). Incredible! Honestly, we may have been a little slow to catch on to this product in the beginning. But everyone who has auditioned it has been amazed.

David
Earmark Marine




David
Earmark Marine

MLA
03-03-2011, 09:51 PM
Kicker KM6500.2: Power wise, the ZXM450.2 is a good choice for the 4 pod setup and the 6-Pack, even though the setup will easily handle more.

I did the 6-Pack on a zxm450.2 last spring and it was clearly audible while riding.

For the 4-pod setup, the new Kicker IX500.4 will deliver 250 watts rms in 2 chnl mode. For the 6-Pack, run either a pair of ZX300.1's (the external X-over is needed) or a pair of IX500.4's.

I am getting ready to do a new system for the same owner on his new boat and will be doing the same 6 pod setup powered with a pair fo the IX500.4's. That 1000 watts rms to the tower.

David, glad to see you are finally seeing the light :cool: ;)

EarmarkMarine
03-03-2011, 10:41 PM
Poison,
To finish your question...Yes, your existing 4-channel Kenwood bridged to the tower is ideal. We ran less and it was very impressive. I can't see more power on a 4-pack having much advantage. That's as much power per each 6.5-inch midbass driver as MLA's target system.
And yes, a single 5-channel amplifier to run everything in the in-boat zone (comprised of six coaxials and one subwoofer) is perfect. As long as you correctly match the mass and sensitivity of your subwoofer to the amplifier power you will be golden.

David
Earmark Marine

Poison
03-04-2011, 12:16 AM
The sub is actually a 10" Kenwood. The manual I have is for both a KFC-XW1002DVC or KFC-WPS1002D...so its one of those two and both have same specs. It has two inputs that can be used in either series (4 ohm) or parallel (1 ohm?). Rated input power is 250w. So as long as I get an amp that does pretty close to 250w at 4 ohms on the fifth channel it should work right?

EarmarkMarine
03-04-2011, 08:54 AM
Poison,
Factory has routinely run that subwoofer in a free-air application even though its not an infinite baffle sub. Although its a decent sub, it probably won't be your final sub. I wouldn't be in a hurry to replace it but eventually you'll want to get a subwoofer that best fits your application. So I would choose the amplifier that addresses what your future upgrade may be. For now, if that sub is located in the floor hump (actually using the bilge as its enclosure) or in a panel that is open over the top, its actual power handling is going to be somewhat less than its normal rated capacity. I would stick with a 5-channel amplifier.

David
Earmark Marine

philwsailz
03-04-2011, 10:05 AM
Another question, why does Moomba install car audio equipment, ie ZX and DX, instead of "MARINE" equipment ZXM?

Hey Sea-

Phil here. Let me see if I can answer this for you.

From Kicker's perspective a marine amplifier has a few key features that differentiate it from a non-marine amplifier.

1. ABYC/NMMA compliant power terminals: There are specific details regarding what connection methodology is proper for primary power wiring to electronic or electrical devices. The DX amplifiers conform to the ABYC/NMMA standard, as do the ZXM amplifiers. Currently there are no ZX amps being used for new production.

2. Conformal coating: Kicker's marine electronics get a special coating on the circuit boards to help seal out moisture. The DX amps do not get this coating, but when you consider the mounting location for a Moomba, if you get water in the amps, you probably have greater worries than your amps working... You are either sinking, forgot to put the drain plugs in, or if you are on a trailer, forgot to take the drain plugs out...

There are just a few other considerations, but the Colonel wouldn't share his 11 secret herbs and spices, so assume I am not going to spill all the beans... :D Know that these are the two of the obvious and key things that we feel differentiate a car amp from a marine amp.

Hope that helps clear things up!

Phil
Kicker

EarmarkMarine
03-04-2011, 11:09 AM
Phil,
So you're saying that the Kicker amplifiers are finger lickin' good?

philwsailz
03-04-2011, 11:54 AM
Phil,
So you're saying that the Kicker amplifiers are finger lickin' good?

You and Ed and your double-entendres....

No, more like a Timex watch... :D

EarmarkMarine
03-04-2011, 01:22 PM
Phil,
Now the Timex slogan IS disgusting if not shocking.

Poison
03-05-2011, 04:53 PM
The WS420 instructions say a relay may be necessary. Right now my one amp just has a direct line to the remote power (blue) wire from the head unit. Since I'm planning on adding another amp and the WS420, I'm guessing I need a relay. Is this probably the case? Do you usually run the power to the relay straight off of the battery?

EarmarkMarine
03-05-2011, 08:57 PM
Three turn-on triggers do not need a relay although we consider that the limit without a relay in our installations. The relay would normally be powered from the identical location as the source unit supply.

David
Earmark Marine

Poison
03-06-2011, 02:42 AM
Good to know.

Do you typically splice the source pcont three ways, or daisy chain them?

EarmarkMarine
03-06-2011, 03:32 PM
It will not make a difference.

Sea N' Things
03-07-2011, 10:54 AM
Thank you Phil for explaining the differences between car & marine audio, I think all are great products and I agree that due to mounting location in the Moomba there should not be a need for water concerns.

Thank you!