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JesseC
03-10-2010, 05:38 PM
Thanks to Moombadaze for helping me out with a little flow test timing compilation. I was curious as to how all of our modifications stack up with our different methods of upgrading the stock ballast or building new systems. Surprisingly the results are not that drastic between the different methods. Some of the results were a lot lower than what I would have expected. You can use the chart to divide your total weight by 8.35 (Weight of a gallon of water) and then divide that by the GPM of each setup. If you are going to use a three Tsunami pumps to fill 3 450 pound bags, your fill time would be around 7.19 minutes, since the pumps can pump at 7.5 gpm to each bag the fill time will match the chart. These timings get a little more complex with the multi valve setup. From the chart you can see my newest setup can do 11.54 gpm through 1 valve filling a 450 in 4.67 minutes three minutes faster than a single Tsunami, but filling 3 450s through three valves will take 9.33 minutes which is 2 minutes slower than three single Tsunamis. With all that said, either method is better than the stock 20 plus minutes and the end result is less than two minutes of fill time.

If you can do a test that is not listed above (Hint hint Ed with those Jabscos), please email me the test you performed, boat model and timings. These tests must be done through the full setup like Moombadaze has done not from just a pump dumping water. The GPM of a Tsunami 800 is 13.33 GPM at the head, but is 7.5 gpm through all of the hoses and fittings as in Stacy’s case. If you are already on the water, pull one of your bags fitting and time how long it takes to fill a 5 gallon bucket, you can use a 1 gallon bucket, but a 5 gallon one will give you a better average.

My tests were done very similar to his, 5 gallon bucket pumped dry and timed. Time was divided by 5 to get the Gallon Per Minute (GPM) and the chart filled in appropriately.

Also If I have made any mistakes with my Shade Tree calculations, please correct me where I have given invalid data. The data will be different for some models hose length and pump location are a HUGE factor. I still need to fill in a few boxes this weekend from the new valves with the old pump.

So if you ask me which setup should you go with, my answer would be "It depends". In some cases each method is faster.

Stock setups are highlighted in Yellow.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q21/StarkRaven/FlowRates-1.jpg

brain_rinse
03-10-2010, 05:50 PM
Great idea! I'm working on my Tsunami 1200s w/ 1" lines install now and should have some data for you next week.

moombadaze
03-10-2010, 05:50 PM
Nice work putting this together, Gotta say thanks to you Jesse as I never would have done bench timing test if you had not done it first.

you da man
03-10-2010, 09:19 PM
Would like to see 3 800 pumps, 3 intake results with vented loop results; 3 800 pumps, 1 intake with vented loops. Also, are the stock sprinkler valves in the 08 GGIII system the 3/4" valves? Judging by the numbers looks like it would take well over 20 min to fill a center sac with two 750 rear sacs.

DOCDRS
03-10-2010, 09:26 PM
Outstanding work. I hope to have some 09 numbers with an upgrade for ya in about 5 weeks....blah if the ice is gone :confused:

stretch55
03-10-2010, 09:40 PM
Thats really helpfull. I have the 2000 pump and the 3/4" orbit valves. So just by upgrading to the Irritrol 700 valves at 3/4" I can cut my fill time in half. Thats awsome! Thats like a $50.00 or $60.00 upgrade!

JesseC
03-10-2010, 10:15 PM
Thats really helpfull. I have the 2000 pump and the 3/4" orbit valves. So just by upgrading to the Irritrol 700 valves at 3/4" I can cut my fill time in half. Thats awsome! Thats like a $50.00 or $60.00 upgrade!

I am not sure if it would double. Your setup should be the same as moombadaze's old one. A 750 bag would go from a fill time just shy of 14 minutes to a fill time of just over 10 minutes. What all bags do you have?

Fman
03-11-2010, 01:36 AM
First off, nice chart.... well done.

I am surprised the Tsunami 800 is only putting out 7.5 GPM, they are rated by Atwood for around 14 GPM. I know I am getting better then 7.5 GPM out of my 800's in my setup. With all three 800's running, drafting out of one 3/4" intake, I am getting about 9.5-10GPM per pump, close to 30GPM when running all of them. It takes me about 8-8.5 minutes to fill 1900 lbs of ballast which is about 228 gallons.

Could you possibly get a little more flow from the water pressure coming in from the bottom of the boat when they are mounted well below the draft line??????

moombadaze
03-11-2010, 07:35 AM
Fman, the gpm where takin at the end of the hose, not the outlet on the pump as it will make a big difference. I was suprised also but when I read the package it gave to different pgm for pump outlet and after only 3' of hose. The hose i was using is about 7' long--it was the factory length. Hope this helps

JesseC
03-11-2010, 10:31 AM
First off, nice chart.... well done.

I am surprised the Tsunami 800 is only putting out 7.5 GPM, they are rated by Atwood for around 14 GPM. I know I am getting better then 7.5 GPM out of my 800's in my setup. With all three 800's running, drafting out of one 3/4" intake, I am getting about 9.5-10GPM per pump, close to 30GPM when running all of them. It takes me about 8-8.5 minutes to fill 1900 lbs of ballast which is about 228 gallons.

Could you possibly get a little more flow from the water pressure coming in from the bottom of the boat when they are mounted well below the draft line??????



Unless my calculations are wrong if you divide yout total weight by 8.35 you get 227.54 gallons then divide that by the three pumps (assuming all bags are equal weight) you get 75.84 gallons for each pump then divide that by your faster fill time of 8 minutes and you get 9.48 GPM per pump if you use the slower time you get 8.92 GPM. It is a true statement that if you spread the GPM across all three pumps your setup can do 28.44 GPM or 26.76GPM. So in your setup you are seeing slightly better results if the timing you have posted is accurate. Could you verify your timings with a stopwatch or use the 5 gallon bucket method. I want to make sure that all timings were gatherd in a similar method.

stretch55
03-11-2010, 10:32 AM
I have 2 250's and 1 600. I guess I would have to get the Irritrol 700 1" to match up with what I have. But I really think that I have the 3/4" from looking at online pics. the Irritrol 3/4" does 750 in about 10min. The Irritrol 1" with a rule 3800 does 750 in about 8min. So I would think the Irritrol 1" with a rule 2000 should do 750 in about 9 min.

JesseC
03-11-2010, 10:36 AM
I have 2 250's and 1 600. I guess I would have to get the Irritrol 700 1" to match up with what I have. But I really think that I have the 3/4" from looking at online pics. the Irritrol 3/4" does 750 in about 10min. The Irritrol 1" with a rule 3800 does 750 in about 8min. So I would think the Irritrol 1" with a rule 2000 should do 750 in about 9 min.

I plan on filling in the chart after this weekend with the timings of the Rule 2000GPH filling through the Irritrol 1" valves. I should have accurate times for you by Monday. Again I am a little leary of the Irritrol 1" valves as I have only bench tested them and not actually run them in the boat yet. I ran the 3/4" ones for about two years with absolutely no issues with filling. It will be Memorial day before the boat hits the water.

sandler312
03-19-2010, 12:36 PM
What pump is this system using at 2,000 GPH, make and model, is this a two pump in and out system for multiple bags? Is the pump self priming? Aslo What type of thru-hull should be installed size, and maybe a model and what location of boat?
Thanks, Adam

JesseC
03-19-2010, 02:02 PM
What pump is this system using at 2,000 GPH, make and model, is this a two pump in and out system for multiple bags? Is the pump self priming? Aslo What type of thru-hull should be installed size, and maybe a model and what location of boat?
Thanks, Adam

If you are referring to the top most part of the chart, that timing is just a base line for what the pump can actually do at the head. You would have to connect vented loops and other hoses to make it work. The top chart is simply a pump only test. The 2000 gph pump is a Rule 2000gph which is no longer available. It hase been replaced by the 1600gph tournament pumps. Your through hull fitting can be whatever you want them to be. I chose 1" scupper style that sccops water and supplys low water pressure to the inlet, some of the others have chosen the flat port style to avoid pressure buildup which would force water through the vented loops. What kind of design are you going for?

sandler312
03-21-2010, 09:04 PM
http://www.boatersland.com/att665533.html is that the correct thru-hull? Also found the pump I think : http://www.rivermarinesupply.com/xcart/catalog/product_11680_Rule_Tournament_Series_Bronze_Base_1 600GPH.html

How is th epump connected if it is not self priming?

JesseC
03-21-2010, 11:14 PM
http://www.boatersland.com/att665533.html is that the correct thru-hull? Also found the pump I think : http://www.rivermarinesupply.com/xcart/catalog/product_11680_Rule_Tournament_Series_Bronze_Base_1 600GPH.html

How is th epump connected if it is not self priming?


http://www.boatersland.com/att665533.html is that the correct thru-hull? Also found the pump I think : http://www.rivermarinesupply.com/xcart/catalog/product_11680_Rule_Tournament_Series_Bronze_Base_1 600GPH.html

How is th epump connected if it is not self priming?

I did not use that type of scupper. I went with the one in the pic below, I picked it up at a local West Marine. You can use that pump but I have never used/tested or seen one of them in person. To get the correct scupper, you have to lay out your entire design and choose the size based off of what will work in your situation. You have to mount the pump below the water line so that the water pressure forces water up to the pump and causes it to prime. Suction on those pumps is not enough to prime them.


This is my new 1" next to the old 3/4"

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q21/StarkRaven/Ballast_Manifold6.jpg

sandler312
03-22-2010, 11:04 PM
So if I run a 6" tube to the pump mounted on floor, I assume it is below water line. This would all be in the back by engine compartment? Which pump you recommend? I am looking to do one bow bag at 1,500 pounds and three bags for back at another 1,500. I was going to run the pump line from stern to top of bow bag then run te lower bow bag to the lower inputs of the back and mount the exit pump in bottom of rear most bag. Would this work?

Thanks

DOCDRS
04-04-2010, 07:22 PM
Ok I just did some timings for the jabsco pumps right offthe. Bag fill line. It took 30 seconds to fill a 5 gallon "imperial" or 22.5 litre pail. I then put in my new 1100 lb bag and it took about 10-11 mins to fill it and it was pretty full. THe boat was listing so much that th bag was higher than tHe. Vent hole and it drained for a while. I have pics and video to come.

brain_rinse
04-04-2010, 08:48 PM
http://www.boatersland.com/att665533.html is that the correct thru-hull?

No, you'll want to get something like what JesseC has pictured, they're called scoop strainers or intake strainers. Thats what you want if you plan to keep sprinkler valves and are OK with a few extra screw holes in the hull. What you have linked is called a scupper and has an internal check valve. Somewhere along the line people here started calling the intake strainers "scuppers" and it has stuck... I've been guilty of that myself.

If you want to do vented loops or check valves instead of sprinkler valves then you want to get mushroom head thru hull fittings. You'll want to get the combination thread that is NPT on the end so that it will properly mate up to a ball valve.

JesseC
04-05-2010, 12:08 PM
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q21/StarkRaven/FlowRates-1.jpg

Thank you DOCDRS!!! I have updated the sheet on the fist page with the timings that you posted and sorted the sheet by GPH.

DOCDRS, I hope you do not mind, but I used your figures to give an estimate of what it would take to fill a system at 1350 lbs using three 450 lbs bags. I was not sure what the stock ballast is now, but I wanted to keep the weights the same so they could be compared with the older setups.

If I were to fill a 750 lbs. bag with my 3800 and 1 valve versus his one Jabsco to fill a single 750 lbs bag mys setup would fill quicker at 7.78 minutes versus the Jabsco 8.06 minutes, the diference isn't even enough to OPEN and get a quick sip of your beer. HOWEVER, if I were to fill my entire 1350 punds with my system it would take 9.3 mins where as DOCDRS jabsco setup would fill the entire 1350 in just 4.84 minutes a difference of 5 minutes!!! (Assuming all bags are the same size example: 3 450lbs bags filling at the same time from three dedicated pumps).


Again, if any of this is incorrect, please let me know and I will make the corrections.

DOCDRS
04-05-2010, 08:46 PM
here is the video filling a 22.5 litre or 5 imp gal pail. Not U.S. gallons
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6KczuaHxLU

maybe i was off a second or two could have been 32 seconds for 49.61 lbs

JesseC
04-06-2010, 03:09 PM
I have updated my previous post with corrections from DOCDRS. I did not take into affect that he was not using gallons and the calculations were off a little. Thanks DOCDRS for the correction!!!

deafgoose
09-13-2010, 01:36 AM
So upgrading from a Rule 2000 to a Rule 3800 does not seem like its worth the trouble. The Rule 3800 flows almost 2X more than the 2000 but they are low pressure pumps.

If I want to significantly decrease the fill times with a single pump, what are my options?