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wakeflip
03-25-2011, 08:11 PM
I have been doing a lot of research on the ballast system and its all too confusing. I have an 05 Outback V with no ballast. I want to add triple auto fill ballast with the switches by the seat. In my research Im finding stuff on intakes, sprinkler systems, reversable pumps, ball valves, etc. Does anybody have a complete DIY triple ballast thread that gives a complete breakdown on whats what and how it all goes together? Im not finding anything and I gotta get this stuff rollin but I dont even know where to start.

Canuckle Head
03-25-2011, 08:44 PM
What type of pumps are you going to use?

wakeflip
03-25-2011, 08:44 PM
Also, what's the point in spending $200 on a jabsco pump when you can spend $59 on a new tsunami 1200 on ebay?

wakeflip
03-25-2011, 08:45 PM
What type of pumps are you going to use?

I dont even know. There are so many different pumps out there I dont even know where to start. Like I said before about the jabsco and tsunami pumps.

Canuckle Head
03-25-2011, 08:51 PM
I meant impeller vs aerator

wakeflip
03-25-2011, 08:58 PM
I meant impeller vs aerator

I dont know. I dont understand the difference. I cant find any info on the pros and cons of both and i sat on hold for wakemakers for 35 minutes before I finally hung up. Im def trying to do this whole set up as cheap, but effective as possible. I just need some guidance on where to start.

Canuckle Head
03-25-2011, 09:11 PM
Impeller pumps are reversible so you can fill and drain from one pump. Aerator pumps are not so you will require 1 pump to fill and 1 pump to drain.

I myself have chosen to go the impeller pump route but I may have a different objective than you as I am more concerned with doing it right and working the way I want it to.

Are you sure you're not a troll?..............

wakeflip
03-25-2011, 09:55 PM
Are you sure you're not a troll?..............

Troll? lol nah. Yeah, in that case Im gonna go with impeller pumps. I pretty much want the same set up as the gravity three system, but I want to fill 2300lbs of ballast within 10 minutes if possible.

Canuckle Head
03-25-2011, 10:24 PM
Okay. How many bags do you want to fill? I have an 07 OBV and am going with 4 bags. IBS, Center, and Rears.

jmvotto
03-25-2011, 10:37 PM
I have been doing a lot of research on the ballast system and its all too confusing. I have an 05 Outback V with no ballast. I want to add triple auto fill ballast with the switches by the seat. In my research Im finding stuff on intakes, sprinkler systems, reversable pumps, ball valves, etc. Does anybody have a complete DIY triple ballast thread that gives a complete breakdown on whats what and how it all goes together? Im not finding anything and I gotta get this stuff rollin but I dont even know where to start.

I did the gi to gii but here is a list to add the ballast system on an oem basis.
on page two of the thread, it's a del ear inventory list. It's easier to read if you print int out.
http://moomba.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=9201&highlight=Parts+list&page=2

Also Jason at wake makers can get you a parts list for your boat

wakeflip
03-25-2011, 11:16 PM
Im going to go with the two rear bags and the center bag in the ski locker. Im going to get the biggest bags I can cause I want atleast 2000 lbs of ballast. And the difference with me is Im not doing an upgrade. Im starting from scratch. So what exactly is the purpose in a sprinkler system, ball valves, intake, etc.

jmvotto
03-25-2011, 11:34 PM
Sprinkler valves allow the control of flow from one single fill pump using the fill switches, kind of like a splitter.

Intake is where the water comes in from the bottom of the boat.

Ball valve is just a shut off protection at the water intake..

wakeflip
03-26-2011, 05:33 PM
Now that makes alot more sense. So in what order do these go in? Adding in 3 jabsco pumps.

2007 Outback V
03-26-2011, 06:16 PM
Now that makes alot more sense. So in what order do these go in? Adding in 3 jabsco pumps.

No sprinkler valves needed with jabsco (reversible) pumps. I would go with the Johnson pumps as they are cheaper right now and have a good rep. The Johnson's don't come with reversible switches, but those can be picked up for $20/ea.

1) Intake(s) on bottom of boat: You can go with one intake per pump or make a manifold to split one intake into three feeds.

2) Ball valve(s): One for each intake - they are you're life-line in the system, close ball valve to stop water from coming in the boat in case of system malfunction.

3) Reversible pumps: One for each bag - location is going to be the main decision for you. Not much room in the engine compartment.

4) Ballast Bags: Looks like you've made that decision.

5) Vent/Over fill lines: One for each bag, 3 more holes in the sides of your boat.

I would plan everything out as much as possible, know how much ballast hose, fittings, clamps, silicon, wire, etc. you need. Go with 1 in. dia. fill lines (50 ft roll, should leave you with extra just in case) and 3/4 in. dia. Vent/Over fill lines (15-20 ft should be plenty).

I know Wakemakers can be a pain to get a hold of, but once you do they will be extremely helpful. Write down all your questions before you call, they will take the time to go through everything. There prices are very competitive imo.

Take a quick look at my mods pics for the basic idea, http://moomba.com/msgboard/album.php?albumid=260
however I am making several changes to improve the system. If you plan on going with something similar, pm me with any questions and I will update you on what I would/am changing.

Enjoy

wakeflip
03-27-2011, 02:08 AM
So if I do one intake split into three, I will only need one ball valve. Correct?

wakeflip
03-27-2011, 05:25 AM
So if I do one intake split into three, I will only need one ball valve. Correct?

Stupid question :p Shoulda looked into that one before I asked. Obviously only one ball valve is needed inbetween the hull and manifold. So between my reasearch and the help from all you guys, here is what I have come up with. Seems alot more simple now. Just a few more questions though.
1.The vent for the bags, can I tee all three together and run one hose, that way I only have to put one hole in the hull for venting?
2. The Vented Loop Anti-siphon Valve from wakemakers, does it actually do its job? Ive read about alot of problems on auto drain and filling.
3.Wakemakers also sells an inline check valve. Do I need these for anything? If so, for what purpose?
4. With Johnson reversable pumps, does it push the water back out for emptying the same place it sucks in water for filling?
5. If I tee in all three vent lines, and use a single intake with triple pump manifold, then the only holes Im going to have to drill are one for the intake in the bottom hull and one under the rub rail for venting. Correct?

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n38/ricerocket86/BallastDiagram.png

NCSUmoomba
03-27-2011, 12:46 PM
A couple of things I notcied in you diagram. First, I think if you use impeller pumps, you won't need the vented loops. Also, It may be cheaper/easier to install 3 intakes instead of one with a manifold. If you use 3, you can use 3/4" or 1" intakes and valves straight to each pump. If you use 1, you have to size it to satisfy all three pumps. If you take the cross sectional area of the fill lines x3. You will end up with like a 1.5" or 2" intake, which is huge, and can cause installation fitment issues. The are also very expensive. As far as tying the vents together, you can do it, but I wouldn't recommend it. For one, you will have to run a bunch of extra hose all over the place to do it. 3/4" thru hulls are cheap. You can probably buy it for less that it would cost to buy all that hose. Plus, the other benefit of separate vents is that these are also the overflows that let you know when the sacs are full. This especially helps if the sacs are different sizes since they will fill at different rates. Wakemakers has a kit you can buyt that comes with everything except the sac that you can buy. If you buy three sacs, buy three kits and go to town. They even include the 3M sealant. This is very handy, and a pretty good deal.

2007 Outback V
03-27-2011, 03:28 PM
Stupid question :p Shoulda looked into that one before I asked. Obviously only one ball valve is needed inbetween the hull and manifold. So between my reasearch and the help from all you guys, here is what I have come up with. Seems alot more simple now. Just a few more questions though.

1.The vent for the bags, can I tee all three together and run one hose, that way I only have to put one hole in the hull for venting?
I agree with NCSUmoomba, don't do it for the following reasons: It will cost more, You really want to know when each bag is full. Don't be too afraid of drilling holes in your boat, it is intimidating, but gets easy after the first one.

2. The Vented Loop Anti-siphon Valve from wakemakers, does it actually do its job? Ive read about alot of problems on auto drain and filling.
Does its job for aerator pumps, not need for reversible pumps. When the reversible pump impeller is not running it prevents water from entering/leaving the bag. One nice advantage of reversible pumps!

3.Wakemakers also sells an inline check valve. Do I need these for anything? If so, for what purpose?
It is nice to have one check valve on each overfill/vent line, this creates a vacuum during emptying and sucks the bags completely flat. Also for me it seems to prevent the bags from losing water when the boat is listing.

4. With Johnson reversable pumps, does it push the water back out for emptying the same place it sucks in water for filling?
Yes they do, same as the Jabsco pumps.

5. If I tee in all three vent lines, and use a single intake with triple pump manifold, then the only holes Im going to have to drill are one for the intake in the bottom hull and one under the rub rail for venting. Correct?
Correct, but drill a dedicated vent for each bag.


I really like your diagram, helps us all know what you are thinking. Don't use a scupper intake with reversible pumps, it is not needed and will slow draining if the boat is moving. Use mushroom type intake(s). Ultimately I think it is best for you to use a dedicated intake for each pump to get optimal filling and draining times, but that is a question for wakemakers. Wakemakers site says that a 1 in. mushroom intake can supply up to 2,200 GPH of water, and the Johnson pumps are rated at up to 720 GPH per pump, so 2,160 GPH for all three. Might be better to go with a 1.25 or 1.5 in. intake if you decide you only want one. Again, best to run this by the people who deal with these types of questions everyday.

Have you decided where you are going to be placing the pumps? Also, I would fill from the stern end of the rear bags and vent from the bow end. I am going to be making this change, REASON: a vacuum is created when I empty my rear locker bags, sometimes when the bags are near empty there is so much suction created that the fill/empty line sucks to the inside of the bag and blocks it from emptying further. This usually happens most often if I am emptying the bags while underway, with the bow higher and the bags near empty the leftover water moves to the stern end of the bags and tends to cause this issue.

Canuckle Head
03-27-2011, 03:54 PM
Looks like you've gone from confused to ballast expert in about 48 hours. Good job dude! 2007 Outback V has got a really nice setup and is my inspiration for my setup which I start next week.

wakeflip
03-28-2011, 07:41 PM
1.The vent for the bags, can I tee all three together and run one hose, that way I only have to put one hole in the hull for venting?
I agree with NCSUmoomba, don't do it for the following reasons: It will cost more, You really want to know when each bag is full.


Don't use a scupper intake with reversible pumps, it is not needed and will slow draining if the boat is moving. Use mushroom type intake(s). Wakemakers site says that a 1 in. mushroom intake can supply up to 2,200 GPH of water, and the Johnson pumps are rated at up to 720 GPH per pump, so 2,160 GPH for all three.


Have you decided where you are going to be placing the pumps?


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So with more research and talking to the guys at wakemakers, I think I have just about everything I need and will be doing a complete DIY thread with detailed pics next week. I have decided to go with three different lines for the vents due to the reasons stated above. I want to know when each bag is full. Also, I will be going with a mushroom intake for the reasons stated above as well. Now as far as the manifold system, I decided against it and will be doing individual intakes for each pump. The reason for that being as wakemakers stated: If you have three pumps running off one intake, if you try to empty one bag for surfing, sometimes instead of pushing the water out of the intake, it pushes it past the other pumps and starts to slowly fill the other bags. Same with filling, sometimes it will start pulling water from the other bags instead of just from the intake. Running individual intakes will be easier for installation, and less problematic. Which is the goal Im going for. Ive decided to go with the 750# bags in the rear lockers, and the 370# in the ski locker. Additional, I will be installing a bow bag as well. One question I do have is this. With the 750# bags in the rear lockers, will they push all the way to the top of the locker once full? My reason for asking is because Im wondering if I can mount the pumps to to the top of the wall in the rear locker. It would be easy to install, and easy to access if I needed to change impellers. I wanted to go with Simers pumps due to the fact that they are reversable and $80 shipped, but I dont know where would be a safe place to mount them since they are not ignition protected. Any suggestions on that matter?

2007 Outback V
03-28-2011, 10:34 PM
One question I do have is this. With the 750# bags in the rear lockers, will they push all the way to the top of the locker once full? My reason for asking is because Im wondering if I can mount the pumps to to the top of the wall in the rear locker. It would be easy to install, and easy to access if I needed to change impellers. I wanted to go with Simers pumps due to the fact that they are reversable and $80 shipped, but I dont know where would be a safe place to mount them since they are not ignition protected. Any suggestions on that matter?

The 750# bags will completely fill your rear lockers and some! This is good because the bags will form to the rear lockers and utilize all the space resulting in maximum ballast, if needed of course :rolleyes:. On a side note, be sure to check your rear lockers for any sharp screws and edges that could potentially puncture the bags. I didn't find any in mine, but I believe others have.

You can mount the pumps to the top of the wall in the rear lockers. Do you mean similar to the one I had mounted?
http://moomba.com/msgboard/picture.php?albumid=260&pictureid=2098

I removed this pump because the 750# bag pushed up against it. It may have been okay there, but I didn't like how hard the bag pushed against the pump. Plus the pumps can get a little warm, too much potential for a melted bag for me.

Simer pumps are great pumps, both inexpensive and "solid" units. Their downfall is exactly what you already know, they are not ignition protected. Which is one reason they are cheaper. You will also have to get the fittings to go from garden hose threads to a 1 in. hose barb. This adds about $10 per pump, so figure a total cost of $90 per pump. As an FYI, the Simer pumps will function fine running off of one intake. You will not have problems with the pumps filling other bags or pulling water from each other. I ran through multiple tests with my system, this is not an issue with these pumps. If you go with Simers, a one intake manifold is an option. I can't speak for Johnson or Jabsco in this manner. I have hear that Jabsco impellers are softer, which could pose problematic on a one intake system

In addition, the Simers have a stiff impeller that does not allow water to pass by unless the pump is on. The impellers are strong, some members on Wakeworld are on their 5th season with the Simers, putting on more than 100 hrs of boat time each year, and the impellers still don't need replacing. Simers were designed as evac pumps to pump dirty water from flooded basements and such. The impellers can take a beating. That said, the Simers still come with a spare impeller, don't base pump placement off the need to replace impellers. Getting the water pump impeller out of our boats is more work than replacing any ballast pump impeller.

Where to mount Simers:

Good question???????? Under the seats like I did works, but remember what I said about filling and emptying the bags from the bow end. You would have to run more ballast line to solve that issue. Or, you could build a pump wall on the stern end of either locker like Ed's pic below.

http://moomba.com/msgboard/picture.php?albumid=223&pictureid=1774

I believe a cover wall goes over the pumps, but I'm not sure? However, this would take up a fair amount of space in the locker, hogging valuable ballast space. If that is not a problem for you, this could work. Not sure how viable an option this is, because the 750# bags are the full length of our lockers. The pre '09 OBV hull doesn't have much space to give.

I personally think that the best place to mount reversible pumps is on the engine side of the divider wall or just below that adjacent to the engine. I think it is in your best interest to use an ignition protected pump if you choose this location. Others have mounted Simers in the bilge/engine area, and I have not heard of any incidents. Their argument is that fuel injected boats don't have as much gas vapor as carb. engines and ignition protection is not as imperative. I am not a mechanic, but I am not about to jump out of an airplane without a backup parachute, if you get what I mean. Others have done it, I was not willing to take the chance.

So between Simers at $90 ea. or Johnsons at $144 ea. (MOOMBAOWNERS discount), I'd go with the Johnsons. Extra $200 in relation to the total ballast project expense is worth it. Plus the Johnsons should be a little faster at 720 gph (Simers are 600 gph). I am going to be changing my system to all Johnson pumps. If you still want to go with the Simers, I'll sell you all four of mine for $200. Two pumps have one season of use, one has one afternoon of use, and the other one I haven't used. Again, consider the Johnson pumps.

Well......there's my short story for the day. Enjoy,

Chad
2007 Outback V

wakeflip
03-28-2011, 10:54 PM
Considering im going to be adding a bow ballast as well, I wouldnt mind sacraficing a little bit of room in the rear locker to mount the pumps back there. That way they are easy to access and I would feel alot better going with the Simer pumps since they are not ignition protected. And to protect from heat and etc, I'll probably figure out some kind of cover to put over them.

E4NASH
03-29-2011, 02:25 PM
What do you all think of this kit?

http://www.wakemakers.com/kiss-complete-impeller-ballast-package.html

Was thinking of maybe using it to add a ballast in the center locker of my LS.

wakeflip
03-29-2011, 02:44 PM
What do you all think of this kit?

http://www.wakemakers.com/kiss-complete-impeller-ballast-package.html

Was thinking of maybe using it to add a ballast in the center locker of my LS.

Ive done nothing but research and price ballast stuff for the past two weeks. IMO, you can go with a Johnson pump, which is identical to the Jabsco pump and just as good, but cheaper. Piece together everything else yourself and you will come out cheaper. You can get the hose pretty cheap at homedepot/lowes, as well as the ball valve. Everything else you can order from wakemakers. If your a moomba owner you get an additional 10% off everything. So, if your going for the cheaper route like I am, piece it together yourself. If your going for simplicity, one order, plug and play, then yeah, its not a bad deal.

E4NASH
03-29-2011, 02:57 PM
Ive done nothing but research and price ballast stuff for the past two weeks. IMO, you can go with a Johnson pump, which is identical to the Jabsco pump and just as good, but cheaper. Piece together everything else yourself and you will come out cheaper. You can get the hose pretty cheap at homedepot/lowes, as well as the ball valve. Everything else you can order from wakemakers. If your a moomba owner you get an additional 10% off everything. So, if your going for the cheaper route like I am, piece it together yourself. If your going for simplicity, one order, plug and play, then yeah, its not a bad deal.

Thanks bro

JesseC
03-29-2011, 03:44 PM
Are you going to be adding timers to your ballast install? I know when you are filling and the bags get full the excess water will run out of the vent and then through the through hull fitting and that will tell you to turn off the pumps. My question would be how do you know when to turn off the empty part of your setup. Since the water is being pushed back under the boat how will you know when to turn them off whitout a visual inspection which kind of defeats the purpose of having automatic ballast?

2007 Outback V
03-29-2011, 09:55 PM
Impeller pumps are a little louder than aerator pumps. There is a definite sound change when the pumps are empty. I do agree timers would be nice, but at $100 ea. pump, I rather listen for the sound.

wakeflip
03-29-2011, 11:26 PM
Impeller pumps are a little louder than aerator pumps. There is a definite sound change when the pumps are empty. I do agree timers would be nice, but at $100 ea. pump, I rather listen for the sound.

Agreed. Alot of people just listen for it. There is also a way to tee off the drain onto the vent so that they empty out of the vents. That way you can visually know when they are empty. But, its just easier and less complicated to listen :p

viking
03-29-2011, 11:28 PM
Agreed. Alot of people just listen for it. There is also a way to tee off the drain onto the vent so that they empty out of the vents. That way you can visually know when they are empty. But, its just easier and less complicated to listen :p

Unless you got the tunes cranked :D

JK - I'd probably do the same thing if I upgraded the pumps. Just have to lower the music and ease up on the cocktails!!

wakeflip
03-29-2011, 11:53 PM
lol When we are boarding in my buddies boat we actually keep an eye on the bags once they get close to empty. Just added security as not to burn up impellers.