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E4NASH
04-28-2011, 03:33 PM
Ok so I just had my Kicker ZXM 450.2 and 700.5 installed. I went to pick up the boat and the 700.5 starts clipping. The installer told me that he had this problem last night while he was tuning it. He made some adjustments and it stopped. He let it run for about an hour and had no problems out of it. We turned it on today for a total of maybe 10 minutes (not continuous) and it starts clipping. He had the gains and everything tuned so the Volume level of 35 out of 50 would be the loudest and best sound.

With all the headache I had with my stupid Prop issue I was really hoping this would be a breeze...apparently not :(

Any Ideas what might be causing this???

The 450.2 is running 1 pair of KMT6s

The 700.5 is running 3 pairs of Polk DB651s (One pair on the front channel and 2 pair on the rear channel) The sub is a 12" 2OHM Kicker CompVT

The Headunit is the Kenwood KMR440U

All equipment is brand new...

Also, I have a two battery setup...the amps power and ground were run to, what appears to be, the main battery. Is this ok?

The installer said that if they were run off the other battery you'd have the amps running of one and the radio and other electronics running off the main so they would both be used when the engine wasn't running...

HELP!! :confused:

ian ashton
04-28-2011, 04:05 PM
Are you using the HPF in the head unit, or the amp?

E4NASH
04-28-2011, 04:08 PM
Are you using the HPF in the head unit, or the amp?

Yes, the amp has a HPF and a LPF. HPF is being used on Amp 1 and Amp 2. LPF is being used on Sub Channel.

Headunit also has an HPF and LPF. Neither of which are turned on...I don't think.

philwsailz
04-28-2011, 04:10 PM
When you say clipping, I thnk if distortion due to running out of headroom, but I think you are describing sometihg else. Tell me what you call clipping.

I'll help out-

Phil
Kicker

bbuhtz
04-28-2011, 04:10 PM
With all the headache I had with my stupid Prop issue I was really hoping this would be a breeze...apparently not :(


this cracks me up... boats are a constant maintenance imo. i don't think the headache will ever go away, lol... i wonder if you'd be able to rewire up your two battery setup such that the main battery supplies power to accessories and the other for starting. not sure your current setup how the batteries are wired but that would be the route i would persue.

E4NASH
04-28-2011, 04:14 PM
When you say clipping, I thnk if distortion due to running out of headroom, but I think you are describing sometihg else. Tell me what you call clipping.

I'll help out-

Phil
Kicker

It is apparently shutting off and then when you change the volume or gain setting it comes back on. But there isn't one combination where it will stay on. You can turn the gain completely down and turn the volume up and it will shut off.

philwsailz
04-28-2011, 04:18 PM
Before we go into system - specific details for your stereo know the following:

The head unit should be wired to the same power source as the amp(s) and often we recomend using the biggest amp's power terminals to connect the radio power to.

Both amps need to be wired with the proper wire gage. The 700.5 should be wired with 4 ga for both power and ground. The 450.2 needs to be wired with 4 ga also. Any less for either amp and you can run into thermal problems due to voltage sag.

Radio EQ settings should be set to flat, or as close to flat as possible. excessive BASS and TREBLE adjustment just makes amps work harder. If you find yourself adding lots of EQ to your settings, it points to deficiencies of speaker selection, or a bad understanding of what music really sounds like.

Similarly, BASS BOOST on an amplifer should not be used excessively. If you find you have the BASS BOOST on any sub amp more than about 40% up, you likely need a larger amp or more woofers. BASS BOOST on full range channels should usually be totally off.

Batteries shuold be fully charged. Too often a system behaves badly due to no more than a battery being depleted. Check the voltage at the amp with the system playing at a reasonably loud level. If it is sagging to 11 or lower, you have a dead battery.

These are common things to start with...

Phil
Kicker

philwsailz
04-28-2011, 04:20 PM
It is apparently shutting off and then when you change the volume or gain setting it comes back on. But there isn't one combination where it will stay on. You can turn the gain completely down and turn the volume up and it will shut off.

Outside of the things I just wrote, do you know if your speaker wires are shorted somewhere?

When it shuts off, does the status light go from green to red, or does it go totally off?

Phil
Kicker

EarmarkMarine
04-28-2011, 04:29 PM
E4NASH,
Did you purchase all the equipment from the installer who put it in?
If you have dual batteries then I assume you have a dual battery switch. If you have a switch then everything should be running to the switch rather than battery direct.
Has anyone checked the voltage at the amplifier primary terminals when the amplifier begins to clip?
Give us a bit more description of what you are hearing when the system is "clipping"...the five-channel amplifier only, right?
While the sub impedance and all other speaker configuration/impedances appear to be fine as you have it, you may want to disconnect the sub and try it. If a voice coil is in the early stages of failure it can behave differently once heated up. Eliminate a set of channels at a time.
Flip the front and rear RCAs to the two amplifiers to take the HU out of the equation.
Triple check all the power terminations as they can look fine until you really tug on them. The continuity and voltage can measure fine at zero current draw on a meter but under serious current draw can be starving. Hopefully all the supply cable gauge is adequate.
I would automatically say its a voltage problem and it would certainly show up on the amplifier with the sub section first. But with showing up in one amplifier only it could be the amplifier. The dealer that you purchased it from should be able to bench check the amplifier under enough load and induce enough heat that when tested independently of the boat they can determine whether its product or not.
Thats a start.

David
Earmark Marine

E4NASH
04-28-2011, 04:30 PM
Before we go into system - specific details for your stereo know the followinf:

The head unit should be wired to the same power source as the amp(s) and often we recomend using the biggest amp's power terminals to connect the radio power to.

Both amps need to be wired with the proper wire gage. The 700.5 should be wired with 4 ga for both power and ground. The 450.2 needs to be wired with 4 ga also. Any less for either amp and you can run into thermal problems due to voltage sag.

Radio EQ settings should be set to flat, or as close to flat as possible. excessive BASS and TREBLE adjustment just makes amps work harder. If you find yourself adding lots of EQ to your settings, it points to deficiencies of speaker selection, or a bad understanding of what music really ssounds like.

Similarly, BASS BOOST on an amplifer should not be used excessively. If you find you have the BASS BOOST on any sub amp more than about 40% up, you likely need a larger amp or more woofers. BASS BOOST on full range channels should usually be totally off.

Batteries shuold be fully charged. Too often a system behaves badly due to no more than a battery being depleted. Check the voltage at the amp with the system playing at a reasonably loud level. If it is sagging to 11 or lower, you have a dead battery.

These are common things to start with...

Phil
Kicker

The batteries in the boat are low however he hooked them up to a battery charger connected to the wall and it is still generating a constant 12V.

I believe the bass boost is turned up a little on on the sub channel. I also have the Remote Bass knob which at one point was turned all the way up.

On Amp 1 and 2 the Gain is set at about the second notch I think. HPF is set around 100 - 120.


Outside of the things I just wrote, do you know if your speaker wires are shorted somewhere?

When it shuts off, does the status light go from green to red, or does it go totally off?

Phil
Kicker

I don't think there is a short but obviously that could be a possibility. The status light goes to red and then I think it goes completely off if I correctly heard him talking to the other owner of the shop.

Thanks for the help!

philwsailz
04-28-2011, 04:35 PM
The batteries in the boat are low however he hooked them up to a battery charger connected to the wall and it is still generating a constant 12V.

I believe the bass boost is turned up a little on on the sub channel. I also have the Remote Bass knob which at one point was turned all the way up.

On Amp 1 and 2 the Gain is set at about the second notch I think. HPF is set around 100 - 120.



I don't think there is a short but obviously that could be a possibility. The status light goes to red and then I think it goes completely off if I correctly heard him talking to the other owner of the shop.

Thanks for the help!


I am going to bet that you have dead batteries. A charger is going to put out on average only around 10A. You can easily pull 10x that with your stereo, and a battery charger will not keep up. Let it charge a while and try again tomorrow.

In the meantime, listen to what David has to say, (Earmark) about battery and system power mwiring. He has forgotten more than I will ever know about wiring battery systems and he has some good advice about the PROPER way to wire a dual battery system in a boat and connect a stereo to it. You may want to consider moving your battery loads around based on his advice.

Phil
Kicker

E4NASH
04-28-2011, 04:37 PM
E4NASH,
Did you purchase all the equipment from the installer who put it in?
If you have dual batteries then I assume you have a dual battery switch. If you have a switch then everything should be running to the switch rather than battery direct.
Has anyone checked the voltage at the amplifier primary terminals when the amplifier begins to clip?
Give us a bit more description of what you are hearing when the system is "clipping"...the five-channel amplifier only, right?
While the sub impedance and all other speaker configuration/impedances appear to be fine as you have it, you may want to disconnect the sub and try it. If a voice coil is in the early stages of failure it can behave differently once heated up. Eliminate a set of channels at a time.
Flip the front and rear RCAs to the two amplifiers to take the HU out of the equation.
Triple check all the power terminations as they can look fine until you really tug on them. The continuity and voltage can measure fine at zero current draw on a meter but under serious current draw can be starving. Hopefully all the supply cable gauge is adequate.
I would automatically say its a voltage problem and it would certainly show up on the amplifier with the sub section first. But with showing up in one amplifier only it could be the amplifier. The dealer that you purchased it from should be able to bench check the amplifier under enough load and induce enough heat that when tested independently of the boat they can determine whether its product or not.
Thats a start.

David
Earmark Marine

David,

No, I bought the Sub and Amps from a "Licensed E-seller" and my installer is a Kicker Dealer.

He has checked the voltage when it clips and its a constant 12V

I do have the dual switch but he ran both the power and ground to the battery itself.

When the system "Clips" it turns off and then you turn the volume down or adjust the gain and it may come back on.

Yes the problem is only the 5 channel

The installer is still troubleshooting the setup now. I had to go back to work. I assume he is going through the tests that you are suggesting.

The 700.2 was run with 4 Gauge. He ran the 450.2 with 8 gauge. I am not having any problem out of the 450.

philwsailz
04-28-2011, 04:38 PM
The 700.2 was run with 4 Gauge. He ran the 450.2 with 8 gauge. I am not having any problem out of the 450.

Know that the 8 ga is too small for the 450.2....

Phil
Kicker

E4NASH
04-28-2011, 04:44 PM
That is what I thought as well. I am going to have that replaced.

E4NASH
04-28-2011, 05:18 PM
E4NASH,
If you have dual batteries then I assume you have a dual battery switch. If you have a switch then everything should be running to the switch rather than battery direct....


David
Earmark Marine

David,

Explain to me why this is best. I'm not doubting you by any means. I just want to understand\learn\know.

E4NASH
04-28-2011, 05:19 PM
ANNNNND...now my installer calls me back and says everything is working fine again. He's going to keep it again over night and see if it happens again and if so find what the problem is. This is CRAZY! :confused:

philwsailz
04-28-2011, 05:27 PM
ANNNNND...now my installer calls me back and says everything is working fine again. He's going to keep it again over night and see if it happens again and if so find what the problem is. This is CRAZY! :confused:

Maybe the battery is a little more charged up now....

Know an amp uses voltage and current to make power. You can measure 12 volts at the battery but have it so dead that it cannot provide the current to keep the amp going. I can put 8 D cell batteries end to end and measure 12 volts but there is no way it is going to run the amp... Not enough current....



You say he is measuring a constant 12 volts; you should know you can do that with a dead bettery on a charger. A dead battery on a charger will not run the amp; the charger will not put out enough current. However if with the stereo playing you go and measure the voltage right at the amp, when a loud parts comes up and the amp goes dead the voltage will tell a very different story. If you have the system playing intermittently and you put your volt meter probes on the pwer terminals of the amplifier, I bet you will see if sucking down to 10 volts or so...

That is my hunch at this point... Charge that thing up some more...

Phil
Kicker

E4NASH
04-28-2011, 06:51 PM
I did some reading\research and came across this thread:

http://moomba.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=14456

After reading it and gathering what I think is the proper setup for wiring my amps to the Perko Switch I have instructed my installer to Wire the amps directly to the common post of the Perko switch instead of directly to battery number 1 and nothing else going to the batteries other than the #1 and #2 posts. Is this correct? If it's on the common post as stated in the link above how will it know which battery to run the stereo on if I switch it to number 2. Does the common post pull from whatever battery is selected? I think Mike (mmandley) suggested putting them on the 2nd post. Which is the corect way? Shouldn't one be for the stereo and one be for cranking the engine. Thinking that makes me think it should be on the battery # 2 post. :confused:

11 Outback V
04-28-2011, 07:27 PM
The best explaination for prope battery switch wiring kinda goes like this. Compare it to a sink faucet with a hot and cold control. The water that comes out is your load, ie stereo, starter. If you turn on Hot or 1, the water coming out the faucet is just from that battery servicing the load. if you turn on cold or 2 that battery services the load. If you turn them both on then you are using battery 1 and 2.

So, if you park the boat and leave the stereo on batt 1, that battery will be run down when you leave, lets just go with its dead. So you cant start the boat, so switch to battery battery 2 and start the boat. Or vice versa
Did that help??

E4NASH
04-28-2011, 07:40 PM
Ok, I got that part but which post on the Perko should the amps be connected to....1, 2, or common? Do I just pick one and let that be that??

E4NASH
04-28-2011, 08:06 PM
Ok, I got that part but which post on the Perko should the amps be connected to....1, 2, or common? Do I just pick one and let that be that??

I mean I guess I am confused because one person says common, someone else says 2, and then someone says 1. I know that if its on 1 and it dies I can switch to number 2 and get going again. So I guess it doesn't matter which one it goes on. I just want it to be right and not have any problems.

EarmarkMarine
04-28-2011, 08:17 PM
E4NASH,
I sure like the faucet analogy.
ALL electronics including the amplifiers, helm buss (which may include the HU supply) and alternator/starter feed should be attached to the dual battery 'common' post. Add a distribution block if needed when you can't stack it all on a single post but that's rare until you have a mammoth or highly complex system.
A completely separate byproduct would be if you have two large symmetrical deep cycle batteries comprising each bank, you can alternate their role ('stereo/accessory' battery while at rest) or (starting battery held in reserve) every other weekend. This will extend the life of both batteries.

David
Earmark Marine

EarmarkMarine
04-28-2011, 08:27 PM
Okay.
The dual battery switch will have three posts.
Common: connected to all electronics.
1: connected to battery #1.
2: connected to battery #2.

All other references to #1 or #2 will be related to the switch position as you connect to battery #1 or #2. When switched to battery #1 you are bridging #1post with the 'common' output post. Same scheme with position #2.
'Both' or 'all' is when both #1 and #2 are connected to the 'common' output post.
'Off' is when both #1 and #2 are totally disconnected.

I hope I'm helping the cause rather than hurting it here.

David
Earmark Marine

MLA
04-28-2011, 10:26 PM
Is the Comp-Vt a loaded sub/enclosure and 2 Ohm at the terminal cap or is it a2 Ohm DVC raw driver? IF the later, how is it wired? 1 Ohm would be an issue, 4 ohm would just be reduced power.

E4NASH
04-28-2011, 10:49 PM
Okay.
The dual battery switch will have three posts.
Common: connected to all electronics.
1: connected to battery #1.
2: connected to battery #2.

All other references to #1 or #2 will be related to the switch position as you connect to battery #1 or #2. When switched to battery #1 you are bridging #1post with the 'common' output post. Same scheme with position #2.
'Both' or 'all' is when both #1 and #2 are connected to the 'common' output post.
'Off' is when both #1 and #2 are totally disconnected.

I hope I'm helping the cause rather than hurting it here.

David
Earmark Marine

Thanks David that helps. I also came across the Exile wiring diagram and it shows the ground being connected to battery # 2 (Stereo Battery) so I think we are all set.

As for the amp, installer says it has been working fine since I left him this afternoon and he is charging the battery. Maybe it was just low...I hope that is the case. He will continue to test it tomorrow.


Is the Comp-Vt a loaded sub/enclosure and 2 Ohm at the terminal cap or is it a2 Ohm DVC raw driver? IF the later, how is it wired? 1 Ohm would be an issue, 4 ohm would just be reduced power.

The sub is a 2 Ohm single voice coil. The amp cannot see any other type of load with this sub on the sub channel.

MLA
04-28-2011, 11:19 PM
The sub is a 2 Ohm single voice coil. The amp cannot see any other type of load with this sub on the sub channel.

Interesting, i never realized the Vt was a SVC sub. Its not one I would ever think about using for a boat install.

E4NASH
04-29-2011, 01:22 AM
Interesting, i never realized the Vt was a SVC sub. Its not one I would ever think about using for a boat install.

I chose it because I didn't want to use a huge box as I didn't want sacrifice much leg room. From what I heard today it POUNDS! It turned out to be a pretty good choice...

MLA
04-29-2011, 07:52 AM
I chose it because I didn't want to use a huge box as I didn't want sacrifice much leg room. From what I heard today it POUNDS! It turned out to be a pretty good choice...

It is a great sub, Ive used it many times in the Kicker loaded enclosures for pickups. The box and woofer fit perfectly under the back seat of the full size extended-cab trucks and is a perfect match with the ZX700.5

E4NASH
04-29-2011, 11:50 AM
It is a great sub, Ive used it many times in the Kicker loaded enclosures for pickups. The box and woofer fit perfectly under the back seat of the full size extended-cab trucks and is a perfect match with the ZX700.5

Precisely why I chose it! ;)