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View Full Version : price for used 2003 Mobius, good price?



husky fan
02-11-2005, 11:30 AM
OK, here's some info on the boat i'm debating to purchase. I'm paying 26,000 bucks for it. Picture of the boat is attached below as a JPEG.

I've spoken to the previous owner, who traded it in to a dealer for a Supra. He told me the maintenance and repair record, which is unremarkable (regular maintenance, never needed repairs or warranty work).

-boat is in near perfect condition, only minor cosmetic wear/tear. No scratches/cuts, etc.
-wakeboard racks
-220 hours
-Single axle trailer
-bimini top
-perfect pass wakeboard pro
-heater
-Bertha Sacks, front and rear
-boat cover
-320 EFI engine
-AM/FM CD
-riser seat

does this price sound reasonable? I've been to the NADA web site. It's trade in both average and low value are significantly less. Every bank I have spoken to only will finance anywhere between 80-90% of the low or high bluebook, without factoring in any of the options included. The best I've found so far is USAA, which offered me 6.3% for eight years on 21,000. Everyone else was either a bit more money, but higher interest.

thanks for your input.

smokedog2
02-11-2005, 04:23 PM
How much was a new one at the boat show?

Jon
02-11-2005, 05:40 PM
I'd say $26,000 is a fair amount for it.

husky fan
02-11-2005, 05:41 PM
with all the same options, around 35.360, according to Moomba's website, for a 2005 configured the same as the 2003.

I'm not sure how much they would have taken off at the boat show over the list price.

Figuring options that you could get for free as part of the boat show, then that price would be 33.160. I'm not sure how much the dealer was willing to deal at the boat show. I went by the local dealer and he told me he would give me boat show prices, but they were the same as Moomba's website, which is where i got these numbers.

John

smokedog2
02-11-2005, 11:13 PM
33,000 - 26,000 = 7,000/220 hrs is $31/hr depreciation

31 X (1,000- 220) hrs is 24,180 leaving $2k residual value if you pay $26k at $1,000 hrs.

New boat $31/hour, with $2,000 residual value, $33/hr no residual value

26,000 / (1000 - 220) = $33/hr left if 1,000 hrs, no residual

Same price as a new one IMHO. This is why I bought new. You may be able to run after 1,000 hours, but I do not plan on running after that.

I do not think your dealer is dealing. $2k off list this time of year is not polite IMHO.

plug in your numbers but price per hour is how I would do the analysis.

My $.02, worth what you paid for it.

SD2

02-12-2005, 02:47 AM
i looked at your math, and it sort of makes sense to me. I hear what you are saying, basically I've used up roughly 1/5 of the boats value, based on a life expectancy of 1000 hours.

Assuming you're saying you could get the same boat new for 33,000 dollars, what you say makes sense.

New is 33000, for a 2005, zero hours, run for 1000 hours equals .33/hour.
Used for 26,000, 220 hours, run for 780 more hours equals .33/hour.

high retail is 31,000
average retail is ~$29,000.
Low retail is ~24.0000.

I guess part of the equation was my wife limited my expenditure to no more than 26K. To get new for 26K ended up being an Outback with a tower, and the dealer incentives thrown in.

Do you really think the only determinant of a boat's life is the hours on the engine? I'm new to boats, but it seems the engine/tranny are only a small part of what is considered the boat. Would a boat with 220 hours look twice as bad as a boat with 110 hours? I'm not being argumentative, I'm just being hypothetical.

husky fan
02-12-2005, 02:59 AM
so what you are saying is my dealer did not make me a huge deal, or any deal?

Forgive me for my ignorance, but the price appears significantly lower than high or even average retail. Is that not a good indication of the value?

High retail is -31000
average retail -~29,000
low retail -~24000

I guess I can accept that. I was also working under a budget (could not spend more than 26,000). New and 26,000 equals Outback with a tower and a radio, and boat show incentives thrown in. Nothing more I think.

I've only bought new on cars for years, then kept them forever.

It sounds as if you are predicting the life of the boat is strictly determined by the hours on the engine. Is that a reliable or useful way to measure longevity? If you say that 1000 hours is the life expectancy for the engine and tranny then that works out to 1/5 of the boat's life is gone.

My car's average speed is somewhere around 33 mph. Assuming 1000 hours on my car, that would be reached in only 33,000 miles. I realize you spend much longer sitting in your car as you do your boat, but the car gets wear and tear on many more components it would seem than a boat does. You have the suspension, the drivetrain, the steering, the tires all suffering wear. What on a boat suffers wear and tear during usage hours, other than the engine/tranny, steering, etc.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. What you say makes sense. I guess I'm questioning whether the hours on an engine are the equivalent of the miles on an odo. You can generally say a car is tired after 150,000 miles, which works out to 4500 hours, roughly.

Can you say that a boat is done at 1000 hours? What is the average number of hours most users put on a boat in a year?

Thanks for the intellectual discussion.

husky fan
02-12-2005, 04:43 AM
qk, here you go, here's my math. Cost is based on base Mobius, no options. Rate of depreciation is roughly the same for options. Depreciation value is based on NADA average value. The first chart assumes 50/hour from year purchased until last year NADA lists for Mobius. 2nd chart assumes 100/hour from year purchased until 1998.

I guess the question truly is, what is the average amount of hours one can expect out of a boat for it's life, and what is the average most owners see in a year, and what impact the number of hours has on the resale value..


YearCost depreciation % hours hours dollars/hour
from prev year deprec remaining
20052900001000$29.00
200423650535018P950$24.89
200322125152560900$24.58
200220600152570850$24.24
20011900016008 0800$23.75
20001800010005%0750$24.00
199917360640400700$24.80
199816600760450650$25.54


YearCost depreciation % hours hours dollars/hour
from prev year deprec remaining
20052900001000$29.00
2004236505350180900$26.28
20032212515256"0780$28.37
2002206001525700700$29.43
20011900016008@0600$31.67
20001800010005P0500$36.00
1999173606404`0400$43.40
1998166007604p0300$55.33

smokedog2
02-12-2005, 12:59 PM
I picked 1,000 hours out of the air. I do the same with cars using 1000,000 miles when buying a car as a baseline since I really cannot predict residual value. The real cost and value of a boat is tough to determine. Residual value is even more opaque.

Try this analysis 23k at 6.3% for 8 years $305/mo $6,340 interest (still 10 year old boat)

33k at 5.5% for 10 years $359/mo and $10,172 interest (still 10 year old boat but two years further down the road)

The new boat really cost you $14,000 more. Roll in the $700- $1000 tax spread and youre up to $15,000. IF you use a home equity line and can write off the interest on the cheaper boat, them the spread increases.

Obviously the spread decreases the more you put down, but only to $11,000. 30% in two years is a heck of a drop. I saw one, nearly the same for $27k, carb. I think you are in teh ball park once you roll in the time value of money.

I suspect your dealer has you pegged as a used boat buyer and he is reinforcing his perception with his actions. He could probably move on the new boat price but is $2k more in options than the base in your mind to begin with.

I would ask for three-four things (package like you are asking for one thing).

First, you want to be the number one priority boat for all of next summer. Your faults, boat fault, whatever you get fixed first.

Second, any repairs in the first year are done at the warrantee rate.

Third, any options you add in Nov Feb for the next two years will be added using the warrantee install rate.

Fourth, a three month bumper to bumper (maybe first).

Like car dealerships, the dealer gets less for warrantee work from SC than they get from you after warrantee. You do not want it to be a lot less; otherwise you (and new boat owners like me) sit while the post warrantee work in peak season gets done first.

He may laugh at you, you will have to sell the seller say no problems, previous owner, you know the history, bla bla, promise to bring it therefore oil changes & winterization whatever. If the product is as advertised, this stuff costs him nothing (he will at least push back to warrantee rate to boat problems, not rock hitting problems).

Recognize that these are probably going to be gentlemen agreements, not likely in writing (but worth a try). Your goal is to get him lined up firmly behind this boat and take on some of the responsibility for it's performance in the next year (he is not really going to bump you to first but your sure do not want to be last because you are getting the warrantee rate). If he will not stand behind the boat at all, that should tell you something about the dealer and his confidence in the boat (and the history you think you know). Both are important in your decision.

Finally, do you like the dealer? That is huge. The dealer makes all the difference.

Did the previous owner buy a Supra? Id like to know, my dealer has me pegged as a future Supra buyer. Im becoming convinced that Moomba is a relationship boat.

Anyway, off to swim lessons, close on wifes new car (in my world, all things cost double) and I called the dealer, we are all going over to visit the new boat after lunch. My wifes first look wish me luck.

02-13-2005, 01:23 AM
Smokedog you are an evil man.

Based on your logic, I pondered it all night long. In fact, i had difficulty sleeping. The paperwork from my bank for the 2003 showed up this AM. I woke my wife and said we should not factor out the cost per hour of new versus used, etc, etc. i showed her the figures.

I told her she had a emotional fixation to the cost, rather than looking at other tangible, but hard to measure, factors. I ended up convincing her to let me call a few dealers.

After all was said and done I got a fine deal (i hope) on a new Mobius LS. We ended up agreeing on 32,900, plus tax and license. I went and looked at it, and plopped down a 2900 dollar deposit.

-Wakeboard plate
-heater
-pop up cleats
-bimini
-Perfect Pass
-fold away tongue
-325 MPI engine
-standard cover
-AM/FM/MP3/CD player
-single axle trailer

Cost per hour remains the same as the 2003 (around 33 bucks/hour), but factor in i get a couple of years covered under a warranty and I know implicitly the history of the boat.

Thanks for your help, and helping me to see things in a different way.

John

husky fan
02-13-2005, 01:23 AM
Smokedog you are an evil man.

Based on your logic, I pondered it all night long. In fact, i had difficulty sleeping. The paperwork from my bank for the 2003 showed up this AM. I woke my wife and said we should not factor out the cost per hour of new versus used, etc, etc. i showed her the figures.

I told her she had a emotional fixation to the cost, rather than looking at other tangible, but hard to measure, factors. I ended up convincing her to let me call a few dealers.

After all was said and done I got a fine deal (i hope) on a new Mobius LS. We ended up agreeing on 32,900, plus tax and license. I went and looked at it, and plopped down a 2900 dollar deposit.

-Wakeboard plate
-heater
-pop up cleats
-bimini
-Perfect Pass
-fold away tongue
-325 MPI engine
-standard cover
-AM/FM/MP3/CD player
-single axle trailer

Cost per hour remains the same as the 2003 (around 33 bucks/hour), but factor in i get a couple of years covered under a warranty and I know implicitly the history of the boat.

Thanks for your help, and helping me to see things in a different way.

John

smokedog2
02-13-2005, 09:36 AM
Sweet

Yea, I get a lot of those different and different way comments. Sometimes they say interesting. Out of the box is also a term used. Sometimes I'm told to get back in the box and they close the lid.

You got a good deal, I'm pretty sure of that but you left out the color. What color!

Im 44 and have never bought anything new, I was a firm believer in letting someone else take the depreciation. However, my opinion is that right now, things are messed up. I bought two new cars and a new boat in the last year. All of them financed at rates lower than my mortgage and all financed for 5-10 years, insuring that I will be upside down forever. But Im upside down on super cheap money in a period where everyone knows interest rates are going up. If they go up 2% in the next two years you have saved about $4,000 on your boat ($30,000 loan) just in interest. Historically consumer product interest is in the 8-10% range. Money is stupid cheap right now. Like you I drive my cars 100,000 miles. I also unload them about then because I need a dependable car and do not have time to be in the shop. I think I know one reason why money is cheap, Fannie May (sp?) buried 11 Billion in bad debt and I think that is the tip of the ice berg. When institution run the numbers for calculating the interest rate they will charge, not accounting for bad debt really influences the rate you think you can charge. Those calculations right now are wrong, thus the anomaly where consumer debt is cheaper than mortgage debt.

Since Im on a roll. A second reason things are messed up is the decision 20 years ago to not give a tax deduction for credit card debt. That pushed the consumer debt into mortgage debt. Thus consumer debt prices are low (less demand), at the expense of record foreclosures because people bet their house and their income, rather than just their income.

As long as you keep your consumer products for a very long time. As long as you are buying quality products that you want/need. As long as you can really afford it. Now is a great time to be in debt. Right now - most of the world is up to their eyeballs in stupid debt. Cloth and injection molded plastic throughout the house on credit cards that are not cheap.

If you trade up in 3-5 years or less you have accomplished nothing. If paying less in interest on your boat than all the fancy new ones will bring you happiness (it will me) your going to have a ball with that boat.

In the end, a boat is not an investment. It is a toy. You can only get a return on it if you use it. My goal is 1,000 hours before the last payment. See ya on the water.

SD2

- Ask about running synthetic oil. I hear in boats it can really help if you plan to keep the boat a long time.

- My wife liked the boat. Mine is red.

husky fan
02-13-2005, 11:36 AM
i run synthetic in all my devices. Always have. i had a VW GTI go 240,000 miles on it before i sold it to a young kid. Compression was the same as new.

I wanted red or yellow, but ended up with Brittany Blue. My wife wanted yellow, but did not want to wait until June if we ordered it. They said late May, which to me meant, sometime before Labor Day.

Oh well, she likes the color. I'll grow to like it. I don't dislike it

smokedog2
02-14-2005, 07:40 PM
I like red, I would have preferred blue. The wife and I hate yellow.



(That's a joke)

Are you going with USAA for insurance? I did not shop them. They cover everything else and I 've been very happy so I just put it on the policy.

02-14-2005, 10:30 PM
Yeah, USAA for both the loan and the insurance. i have been with them since 1983. Dang, I have renter, home owner, 2 cars, a motorcycle, life insurance with them. Now I have a boat loan and boat insurance. What a great company.

Did you go with them for your insurance? I'm a retired army officer. I know they have differing rates, depending on your affiliation with the military. I did not even check with anyone else. I think it works out to about 440/year.

husky fan
02-14-2005, 10:30 PM
Yeah, USAA for both the loan and the insurance. i have been with them since 1983. Dang, I have renter, home owner, 2 cars, a motorcycle, life insurance with them. Now I have a boat loan and boat insurance. What a great company.

Did you go with them for your insurance? I'm a retired army officer. I know they have differing rates, depending on your affiliation with the military. I did not even check with anyone else. I think it works out to about 440/year.

smokedog2
02-15-2005, 10:20 PM
Air Force Reserve Officer. Eight years active and about the same in the reserves. I figure new boat, new car - orders to the sandbox are probably in the mailbox as we speak. I wish I could laugh at that prospect. Im hoping for one more year so that my youngest is in school but with 150,000+ reservists deployed and most of the active force on their second rotation, someone is going to notice me sooner than later. Then again Ive always said Id rather be lucky than good, luck is more reliable.

I did not shop USAAs insurance either, $454, they have never been beat. They insure just about everything of mine. I refuse to add it up, my wife might see it.

I used a local bank for the boat loan, it cost me .1% more than USAAS but it was just easier. Besides I owed the banker a favor.

Watch those motorcycles, the ER Docs call them Donor Scooters.

SD2