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cab13367
06-13-2011, 02:07 AM
I'm having a problem with my Blue Sea ACR not combining. I have two stereo batteries that are wired together in parallel (as one bank) plus a starter battery. I added a digital voltmeter at the helm that is connected to the stereo bank. I have the stock voltmeter connected to the starting battery. I have a remote led at the helm connected to the ACR. I have the ProMariner ProSport 20 and plug it in after each use.

SO here's the problem. The ACR will not combine as indicated by the blinking led. Engine is running, stereo bank voltmeter reads 12.7 and starting battery voltmeter reads around 14v indicating that it is receiving charging current. So why won't the ACR combine?

lsvboombox
06-13-2011, 08:04 AM
did you try running thru these questions:

http://bluesea.com/files/resources/technical_briefs/Technical_Brief_7610_FAQ_Matrix.pdf

here is the link http://bluesea.com/files/resources/technical_briefs/Technical_Brief_7610_FAQ_Matrix.pdf

cab13367
06-13-2011, 09:32 AM
Thanks, I had not seen that. Looks like I have a faulty ACR. I'll give blue sea a call.

EarmarkMarine
06-13-2011, 10:34 AM
Regardless of whether you have a bad ACR or not, as your audio system current draw and your depleted batteries current draw and your boat operations current draw collectively exceed your alternator output, you have also excceded the functional limitations of your ACR. Its an issue I have been observing and speaking to for years now. Its not unusual. Remember that your alternator output is generally rated at a high rpm and for intermittent use rather than continuous duty. Amplifiers with higher current draw compound the issue and an ACR by nature increases your dependency on shore AC charging. As your ACR doesn't combine when expected this will in turn dominoe into deeper battery cycles, less battery lifespan, decidedly less audio output and can contribute to thermal problems in the peak heat of summer.
Also, consider that an ACR is NEVER used on a fishing/bass boat to combine the alternator or stator with the depleted trolling motor bank. They know that a current draw this large and battery bank this large will exceed the limitations of both the alternator and ACR as designed.
There are designs that circumvent theses problematic issues but they must be done in the context of a total audio system and total charging system instead of a collection of random parts. As you increase one part of the equation it will trickle down into the other components.

David
Earmark Marine

cab13367
06-13-2011, 08:33 PM
Regardless of whether you have a bad ACR or not, as your audio system current draw and your depleted batteries current draw and your boat operations current draw collectively exceed your alternator output, you have also excceded the functional limitations of your ACR. Its an issue I have been observing and speaking to for years now. Its not unusual. Remember that your alternator output is generally rated at a high rpm and for intermittent use rather than continuous duty. Amplifiers with higher current draw compound the issue and an ACR by nature increases your dependency on shore AC charging. As your ACR doesn't combine when expected this will in turn dominoe into deeper battery cycles, less battery lifespan, decidedly less audio output and can contribute to thermal problems in the peak heat of summer.
Also, consider that an ACR is NEVER used on a fishing/bass boat to combine the alternator or stator with the depleted trolling motor bank. They know that a current draw this large and battery bank this large will exceed the limitations of both the alternator and ACR as designed.
There are designs that circumvent theses problematic issues but they must be done in the context of a total audio system and total charging system instead of a collection of random parts. As you increase one part of the equation it will trickle down into the other components.

David
Earmark Marine

David,

Not sure I totally understand what you are saying but I think my problem is pretty basic. My dual battery bank is fully charged (12.7V) and the ACR does not combine (yes, I have waited out the two minute delay) when I can see that the starting battery is getting charging current from the alternator as it is showing nearly 14V. A working and properly wired ACR should combine under these conditions.

I called Blue Sea today and they told me to make sure the SI wire is connected to the correct terminal on the ignition switch (i.e., zero volts in the on position). Or better yet, disconnect the SI wire at the ACR and see if it still does not combile. If it doesn't, they said to send it in and they will send out a new one.

Al

Razzman
06-13-2011, 08:54 PM
David,

Not sure I totally understand what you are saying but I think my problem is pretty basic. My dual battery bank is fully charged (12.7V) and the ACR does not combine (yes, I have waited out the two minute delay) when I can see that the starting battery is getting charging current from the alternator as it is showing nearly 14V. A working and properly wired ACR should combine under these conditions.

I called Blue Sea today and they told me to make sure the SI wire is connected to the correct terminal on the ignition switch (i.e., zero volts in the on position). Or better yet, disconnect the SI wire at the ACR and see if it still does not combile. If it doesn't, they said to send it in and they will send out a new one.

Al

Al keep me posted as to the outcome of the SI wire on your install if you would.

EarmarkMarine
06-13-2011, 11:12 PM
Al,
Yes, it should combine under the conditions that you described and in your case you may have a legit defect or wiring issue. But I'll describe another scenerio.

210 amp hours of a stereo battery bank that is depleted down to 12.0 volts after a long stay at rest.
30 amps of initial demand until the above bank gets a charge.
Continuing to play a 3000 watt stereo that is at 50 percent efficiency at -3 dB of capacity and drawing 75 amps.
Driving the boat at a moderate rpm while the ignition and boat operations consume 20 amps.
A 90 amp alternator that is developing 75 continuous amps at this particular speed.
The starting battery is fully charged at 12.7 volts and the alternator is generating just above 14 volts. The sensing side measures at 13.7 volts and the ACR attempts to combine.
There is 125 amps of current draw and 75 amps available from the alternator.
The current differential must come from the starting battery. Keep in mind how significant the depleted capacity is of a stereo bank with so much reserves...in fact, its four times the amp/hour capacity of the starting battery. That translates to a major voltage drop in the starting battery when compared to a minor elevation in voltage of the stereo bank.
The voltage on the starting battery drops like a rock. The ACR bounces back open.
Now, some boaters will not tax the charging system to this degree and their ACR may combine and stay combined. Other boaters will run the batteries lower and continue to play the stereo at full tilt after a stay at rest. For those boaters:
The amplifiers will lose a third or more of their rated power.
The batteries will cycle deeper and replacement will come sooner.
The stereo batteries will not see an alternator charge at any time after the stay at rest.
As the stereo size gets larger and the stereo battery bank becomes larger the functional limitations of an ACR are exposed. The ACR is less likely to combine and you become more dependent on shore charging for restoration.

David
Earmark Marine

cab13367
06-14-2011, 01:11 AM
Al keep me posted as to the outcome of the SI wire on your install if you would.

Razz,

The post on the ignition switch that the yellow wire with the red stripe is connected to is the correct post to connect the ACR SI wire to. It shows zero volts with the key in the "run" position and 12V+ with the key in the "start" position.

Al

cab13367
06-14-2011, 01:13 AM
So I did some troubleshooting in the garage tonight and the ACR combines when it senses charging current coming from the on board charger. So I wonder why it won't combine when it senses charging voltage coming from the alternator when the engine is running?

I will call Blue Sea again tomorrow and see what they have to say.

Al

NCSUmoomba
06-14-2011, 07:22 AM
David,

That is pretty interesting, and makes alot of sense. Us guy with the older boats have it even worse, though. My boat has a 55 amp alternator (I think) and that does not help the situation. I find that if I don't AC charge my stereo battery after every trip, after about 8 hours of normal use, there will not be enough current to run the stereo. It will keep cutting on and off trying to power up, and that is pretty annoying.

EarmarkMarine
06-14-2011, 09:07 AM
Brian,
Yes, long before the stereo starts to cut out the audio performance really begins to suffer due to low voltage. The best solution for any towboat is to start with highly efficient amplifiers, like fullrange Class D for example.
A Class AB amplifier will consume 2000 supply watts to produce 1000 watts of audio output. 1000 watts is wasted in heat generation.
A Class D amplifier will consume 1250 supply watts to produce 1000 watts of audio output. 250 watts is wasted in heat generation.
The Class AB converts 400 percent more supply to wasted heat at the same output level than a Class D.
Problem solved and no need for an upgrade alternator. Plus, when you lift the observers seat it won't feel like a blast furnace coming out of the port locker in July and August.

David
Earmark Marine

cab13367
07-03-2011, 01:08 AM
So I finally figured out what the issue is with my ACR. To restate the problem, the ACR will not combine with the engine running as indicated by a blinking green light. I tracked the problem down to the Starter Isolation circuit. The ACR has an optional SI wire that should be connected to the ignition switch, specifically, to a post on the switch that shows zero volts when in the on position and 12 volts when the engine is being started. I thought that was the post on the ignition switch that the yellow wire with the red stripe is connected to so this is where I connected my SI wire. The SI feature momentarily disconnects the batteries (when they are in a combined state) when the engine is started so that the stereo equipment is not affected by the surge in current required to start the engine.

What I found is that the post on the ignition switch where I had the SI wire connected does indeed show zero volts when in the on position and 12V when in the "engine start" position. HOWEVER, I discovered that as soon as the engine is put into gear, the post shows 12V. So that is why it was combining when the engine was running but the throttle is in the neutral position but would not combine when I was underway. I checked the other two posts on the ignition switch and both show 12V when the key is in the on position.

So I concluded that at least on my boat, there is no way to use the SI feature so the SI wire should not be connected.

Razz/Mandley,

Please check your ACR's since I think you wired your SI the same way I did and let me know if the green LED is blinking when your engine is running and the transmission is in gear.

Thanks,

Al

Razzman
07-03-2011, 10:41 AM
So last time out i didn't see mine come on either. theres gotta be an ignition wire to connect to. wonder if SC can help with this one?

cab13367
07-03-2011, 12:25 PM
So last time out i didn't see mine come on either. theres gotta be an ignition wire to connect to. wonder if SC can help with this one?

Razz, did the LED not come on at all or was it blinking green?

When I have time, I will pull out the ignition switch and see if there are another spades there that might not be in use. Just have to find one that is zero volts all the time except when the key is turned to the start position.

Razzman
07-03-2011, 12:46 PM
Razz, did the LED not come on at all or was it blinking green?

When I have time, I will pull out the ignition switch and see if there are another spades there that might not be in use. Just have to find one that is zero volts all the time except when the key is turned to the start position.

I didn't notice any activity, but then I wasn't staring at it either.

rdlangston13
07-03-2011, 12:49 PM
starter relay? what ever activate the starter solenoid should give you exactly what you are looking for.

cab13367
07-04-2011, 12:51 PM
starter relay? what ever activate the starter solenoid should give you exactly what you are looking for.

Good point. I guess I could trace the wire coming from the ignition switch to try and find the starter relay that way. I just don't want to have to pull the sub box out and there's very little room under the dash unless I do so. Or is it at the starter? I may just leave the SI wire disconnected. Can anyone comment on the importance of having a starter isolation relay in place?

It's puzzling to me though why that post on the ignition switch would show 12V when the transmission is in gear. What purpose does that serve?

Razzman
07-04-2011, 02:04 PM
Good point. I guess I could trace the wire coming from the ignition switch to try and find the starter relay that way. I just don't want to have to pull the sub box out and there's very little room under the dash unless I do so. Or is it at the starter? I may just leave the SI wire disconnected. Can anyone comment on the importance of having a starter isolation relay in place?

It's puzzling to me though why that post on the ignition switch would show 12V when the transmission is in gear. What purpose does that serve?

Al the isolation is there i believe to insure that only the starting battery is tapped when starting.

edit: Here's what Blue Seas literature says;


Automatically combines batteries during charging, isolates batteries when discharging and when starting engines
Allows temporary isolation of house loads from engine circuit during engine cranking to protect sensitive electronics—starting isolation indicated by blinking LED

cab13367
07-04-2011, 04:40 PM
Al the isolation is there i believe to insure that only the starting battery is tapped when starting.

edit: Here's what Blue Seas literature says;


Automatically combines batteries during charging, isolates batteries when discharging and when starting engines
Allows temporary isolation of house loads from engine circuit during engine cranking to protect sensitive electronics—starting isolation indicated by blinking LED


Razz,

I get this. And the way this happens is that when the ACR senses 12V+ coming in thru the SI wire, the relay opens, disconnecting the batteries. As soon as the 12V+ goes away, it closes again. The problem is that when you put the boat in gear, 12V+ is sent to the ACR again via the SI wire so the relay opens. So any time the engine is running and the boat is in gear, the ACR is open and the batteries are isolated, which is not what we want.

What I meant by my question, "What purpose does it serve?" is the 12V+ at the ignition switch when the boat is placed in gear.

Al

philwsailz
07-05-2011, 01:02 PM
Something is amiss here guys-

If your ignition cranking send wire, (ABYC and USCG yellow with red stripe) goes to +12 with the motor running, your starter will be cranking while the motor is running!

If indeed you really go to 12v positive in gear, there is a starter interrupt relay somewhere between the ignition switch and the starter relay. Move your SI wire to either that relay's output to the starter solenoid, or take it directly to the positive lug of your starter as a means of last resort.


I do agree the SI wire is likely not necessary on your boat(s) but there is a way to get the SI circuit working properly....

Phil
Kicker

cab13367
07-05-2011, 01:56 PM
Something is amiss here guys-

If your ignition cranking send wire, (ABYC and USCG yellow with red stripe) goes to +12 with the motor running, your starter will be cranking while the motor is running!

If indeed you really go to 12v positive in gear, there is a starter interrupt relay somewhere between the ignition switch and the starter relay. Move your SI wire to either that relay's output to the starter solenoid, or take it directly to the positive lug of your starter as a means of last resort.


I do agree the SI wire is likely not necessary on your boat(s) but there is a way to get the SI circuit working properly....

Phil
Kicker

Phil,

Thanks for chiming in. Yes, the yellow wire with red stripe really does go to 12V+ with the key in the ON position, the engine running, and the transmission in gear (forward or reverse). I verified this with a mutli meter and explains why the ACR will not combine when we are underway (and I get the blinking green LED).

I might have to take your suggestion to connect the SI wire to the starter positive lug since that would be a lot easier than trying to find a relay under the dash due to my sub box taking up all the room under there.

Thanks again.

Al

cab13367
07-05-2011, 02:50 PM
Okay, thanks to Phil's post, I think I know why the yellow wire with red stripe at the ignition shows 12V when the transmission is in gear. Somehow, that 12V signal translates into why you can't start the engine if the transmission lever is in gear. So it's a built in safeguard that unfortunately makes it not the right place to hook up the ACR SI wire.

So based on that, if we want to use the SI (starter isolation) feature of the ACR, we must connect the ACR SI wire directly to the post on the starter solenoid where the yellow wire with red stripe is connected. You might be able to find the starter interrupt relay that Phil referred to in his post somewhere under the dash but my heater tubes and sub box are in the way so I can't see it, if it's there somewhere. So for me, it's easier to run the wire to the starter solenoid.

Below is a pic of the solenoid. You'll want to connect the ACR SI wire to the small post at about the 2 o'clock position on the pic. It's the post with one small gauge wire attached to it, the one with the black heatshrink with yellow stripes. That is the other end of the yellow wire with red stripe from the ignition switch.

I will try this out this week and will report back once I get on the water again and have had a chance to verify.

Thanks,

Al

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg276/cab13367/Boat%20pics%20-%20public/Starter2.jpg

Below is a pic of the ACR showing the SI spade that you want to connect to.
http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg276/cab13367/Boat%20pics%20-%20public/7610_front_cover_off.jpg

squeeg333
07-05-2011, 03:12 PM
Hmm, this is intersting, and a good find Al. I'll have to take a good look at this next time I'm out. I too have the SI wire hooked right to the back of the ignition switch. Whenever I've specifically looked at my ACR, I'm at idle. Never looked at it while underway. I am curious if this is maybe why it seems it's easy to drain my stereo battery. At least last year, three times out and the stereo battery was dead. If they are isolated while underway, it's just getting drained, and only charged when at idle, which isn't a whole lot of time. Since then I've had it on a charger after a day on the water.

When I have looked at the ACR, I have a solid steady green LED. I assume this mean the batteries are combined??

So, I am curious as well, is the SI circuit really needed?? I don't particulalry want to fish a wire (or pull the floor up) for something that isn't necessarily needed. I could however try to find that relay under that dash...

cab13367
07-05-2011, 04:38 PM
Hmm, this is intersting, and a good find Al. I'll have to take a good look at this next time I'm out. I too have the SI wire hooked right to the back of the ignition switch. Whenever I've specifically looked at my ACR, I'm at idle. Never looked at it while underway. I am curious if this is maybe why it seems it's easy to drain my stereo battery. At least last year, three times out and the stereo battery was dead. If they are isolated while underway, it's just getting drained, and only charged when at idle, which isn't a whole lot of time. Since then I've had it on a charger after a day on the water.

When I have looked at the ACR, I have a solid steady green LED. I assume this mean the batteries are combined??

So, I am curious as well, is the SI circuit really needed?? I don't particulalry want to fish a wire (or pull the floor up) for something that isn't necessarily needed. I could however try to find that relay under that dash...

Squeeg, sorry you are having issues. I feel responsible for this since I was the one that said where to connect the SI wire to. I ran all last summer without the SI wire connected so I did not have any issues. In fact, had I not run the remote LED to the dash and installed the Stinger voltage meter, I might not have noticed until my stereo started having issues.

Yes, solid green means the batteries are combined. No light at all means the batteries are separated. Blinking green means it's trying to combine but cannot due to some pre-defined condition.

Al

Al

squeeg333
07-05-2011, 05:01 PM
No worries Al, it's not your fault. That is where I probably would have looked for it in the first place, and would have never thought to check it when it was in gear. I mean, I checked for voltage before I hooked everything up as well, so, reall, no worries.

This would be great though if this is the reason why last year it seemed like I wasn't ever getting a charge, or much of a charge, on a brand new battery (stereo battery).

And just to be clear, almost always the green light will be on - Unless there's an undervoltage lockout on right? I did get that once or twice last year - the undervoltage on one of my stereo battery.

If I find the same issue, pending what you end up doing, I'll probably just pull the in-line fuse I have on the SI lead and call it good.

cab13367
07-05-2011, 08:24 PM
No worries Al, it's not your fault. That is where I probably would have looked for it in the first place, and would have never thought to check it when it was in gear.

I actually discovered it by accident. We were slogging thru a long no wake zone and I noticed the green LED blinking again so with my son driving, I hooked up the multi meter (again) to the ignition switch and asked him to put it in neutral. Sure enough, it read 0 volts. We started drifting a little close to shore so he put it in gear and that's when I saw the multil meter jump up to 12V+. I had him put in neutral, then in forward, then neutral, then reverse several times and every time he put it in gear, it would show 12V+.


This would be great though if this is the reason why last year it seemed like I wasn't ever getting a charge, or much of a charge, on a brand new battery (stereo battery).

If your boat is wired like mine, and I have to believe it is, then I'm almost positive this is it. Could you please confirm the next time you are out? And remember to wait at least two minutes for the ACR to combine from the time the engine is started.


And just to be clear, almost always the green light will be on - Unless there's an undervoltage lockout on right? I did get that once or twice last year - the undervoltage on one of my stereo battery.


Any time one of the batteries is receiving charging voltage (13.0V for > 2 minutes), the ACR should combine (solid green LED). It will then isolate (no LED) after you have been sitting a while and one of the batteries falls below 12.75V for 30 seconds.

It will blink under the following conditions and not combine:

Undervoltage - one of the batteries is at 10.8V or less. Fast blink rate.
Starting Isolation - positive voltage detected by SI wire. Slow blink rate.

The ACR also will not combine if it senses charging voltage over 16.0 volts but it doesn't say in the literature whether or not the LED will blink.


If I find the same issue, pending what you end up doing, I'll probably just pull the in-line fuse I have on the SI lead and call it good.

I will probably go ahead and run a wire to the solenoid just to confirm that my ACR is working properly.

squeeg333
07-05-2011, 09:20 PM
Al, I will most certainly check it out next time I'm on the water to see how it reacts going into and out of gear. I can almost 100% guarantee that it'll do the exact same thing as you have described, since I can't imagine between 06 and 08 they changed the wiring... I believe that the wire we have tapped into is a standard color across all boats, at least that's what I gathered from one of Phil's remarks in an earlier post. It would make sense to have some standard wire markings for certain things on boats so troubleshooting them would be easier for mechanics...

squeeg333
07-11-2011, 12:06 PM
Al, I was out yesterday and double checked this. When the boat and running, and out of gear, the relay showed the batteries were combined - and when she went into gear, sure enough, the LED started blinking, indicating the SI circuit was closed. So, I pulled the in-line fuse that I have in the SI line from the starter to the relay, and it combined the batteries like it should, both in and out of gear.

Thanks for catching this, and it makes sense now why I was having battery depletion problems last year as well. I couldn't figure it out - but since my stereo bettery was isolated and never getting a charge when the boat was in gear, it makes total sense!

For now, I'll just leave the in-line fuse out, but sooner than later I'd like to try to find the right wire to use from the ignition switch - but it'll be a few weeks before I tackle that. Unless someone else out there can find it!!

cab13367
07-11-2011, 12:29 PM
Glad you got it squared away. There are only two other spades on the ignition switch, i checked them, and they both show +12V with the key in the run position so it's a no go.

squeeg333
07-11-2011, 05:56 PM
Well crap then! I know you asked the question before, but did you hear anything/find anything about leaving this circuit open all the time? I'm thinking of doing that in lieu of fishing a wire back to the starter.

bbuhtz
08-15-2011, 10:52 AM
Well crap then! I know you asked the question before, but did you hear anything/find anything about leaving this circuit open all the time? I'm thinking of doing that in lieu of fishing a wire back to the starter.

Did you try this? I'm also thinking of doing the same.

ian ashton
08-15-2011, 11:23 AM
The SI option is virtually pointless, for the following reasons:

-Many times when you start, the batteries aren't combined anyway, due to voltage on the 'house' battery vs. the start battery.

-If the batteries are combined when you start, the ACR will separate House and Start almost instantly, due to the voltage drop from the starter cranking, giving you essentially the same benefit that you'd see from the SI circuit.

-If you are running a single battery, or dual battery without the ACR, you don't have Starter Interrupt - this is how the boats come from the factory, and nobody has had any issues with it for the last 20+ years, lol.

Long story short, save yourself the headache. I'm running my ACR without the SI hooked up.

cab13367
08-15-2011, 03:47 PM
The SI option is virtually pointless, for the following reasons:

-Many times when you start, the batteries aren't combined anyway, due to voltage on the 'house' battery vs. the start battery.

-If the batteries are combined when you start, the ACR will separate House and Start almost instantly, due to the voltage drop from the starter cranking, giving you essentially the same benefit that you'd see from the SI circuit.

-If you are running a single battery, or dual battery without the ACR, you don't have Starter Interrupt - this is how the boats come from the factory, and nobody has had any issues with it for the last 20+ years, lol.

Long story short, save yourself the headache. I'm running my ACR without the SI hooked up.

I disagree with your first two points. To your first point, when you are changing riders and shut off the engine, the ACR will stay combined since the voltage on both batteries will be above 12.75. I have a remote LED on the dash and the light stays on so I can confirm this.

To your second point, the ACR will NOT "separate House and Start almost instantly, due to the voltage drop from the starter cranking". The voltage in one battery has to be below 12.75 volts for 2 min. or below 12.35 volts for 10 seconds for the ACR to open (this is stated in the manual). This is exactly what the SI circuit does - it causes the ACR to open instantly when the starter is engage, if the SI wire is properly hooked up.

No comment on your third point but we hear of lots of cases where someone's stereo suddenly died. How do we know that it's not due to the sudden drop in voltage from the starter being engaged?

squeeg333
08-15-2011, 06:19 PM
I did pull the fuse a while back, and things have worked well so far. I can't comment on the safety of the setup, or anything to that effect, but I know that so far, things are working well. I would like to re-connect that circuit, since I went to the trouble of routing the wire for the SI circuit. I just haven't had any time at all to mess with it (I'm still kind of hoping that Al will do some testing for me/us)!!!

cab13367
08-16-2011, 12:21 AM
Same here - I just disconnected the SI wire and have not gotten around to running a wire to the starter yet. Probably won't get to it until after the boating season is over.

ian ashton
08-16-2011, 01:01 PM
I disagree with your first two points. To your first point, when you are changing riders and shut off the engine, the ACR will stay combined since the voltage on both batteries will be above 12.75. I have a remote LED on the dash and the light stays on so I can confirm this.

To your second point, the ACR will NOT "separate House and Start almost instantly, due to the voltage drop from the starter cranking". The voltage in one battery has to be below 12.75 volts for 2 min. or below 12.35 volts for 10 seconds for the ACR to open (this is stated in the manual). This is exactly what the SI circuit does - it causes the ACR to open instantly when the starter is engage, if the SI wire is properly hooked up.

No comment on your third point but we hear of lots of cases where someone's stereo suddenly died. How do we know that it's not due to the sudden drop in voltage from the starter being engaged?

I usually don't shut off when picking up riders, and if I do its probably for more than 2 minutes, so I guess that would explain why that makes sense for me.

I also have a remote LED, and every time I start the boat, the ACR seperates (light goes off), which is what I was basing that statement on :)