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View Full Version : Clean Slate Ballast Installation Project - T-1200 pumps, all 1" lines



bergermaister
06-22-2011, 03:49 AM
The boat: 2001 MobiusV, 22ft
Old setup: Single Rule 1100 pump, various bags from 400-1100, handheld T-1200 pump
Fill times: Way to freakin long... Like a full half hour to switch surf sides. And a pain in the ass with the handheld setup doing most of the work.


I've been researching and working on this for most of late Winter and early Spring now and have neared completion so it's time to post up the proof. After gutting my old setup the only existing parts I had to work with was a Rule 1100 pump in the bilge area and a switch on the dash that would go away.

I wanted a "turn key" system that would fill and drain fast and at the flip of a switch while we get riders ready, listen to tunes, toss back a few cold frosties, whatever. I also wanted to maximize my wake size for surfing since it's my favorite thing to do on the boat.

With that in mind I started drawing up a bunch of different possibilities and asking questions, looking at other posts, etc. Talked to several of you on here, pinged WakeMakers a few times, got Newty drunk enough to pick his brain for a few hours one night, and finally got it all figured out.

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/Moomba-ballast-1.jpg


Shopping list:
5 - Tsunami 1200 pumps
1 - 1" bronze thru hull
1 - 1" ball valve
1 - 1" T-splitter, threaded
2 - 1" NPT to hose barb fittings
1 - 1" intake nipple fitting
3 - 1" stainless thru hulls
1 - 3/4" stainless thru hull (actually for my bilge pump)
8 - Attwodd 3902 straight fittings
3 - 1" vented loops
3 - 1" check valves
90ft - premium 1" ballast hose
Shitload of 1" hose clamps - I lost count but in the 50 range I'd guess...
3 - 1" hose barb T fittings
9 - Fly High W743 fittings
9 - Fly High W746 fittings
2 - T-1200 Pump mount brackets
3 - Ballast switches for fill/drain
3 - in-line fuses
24ft - 16ga 4 wire insulated loom (rear pumps)
12ft - 16ga 2 wire insulated loom (front drain pump)
Bunch of water tight wire connectors
1 - 3.5" x 6" hunk of black ABS for switch plate
Miscellaneous stainless screws, wire ties, and probably a few other things I forgot.

Ballast Bags:
2 - 1100 Fly Highs
1 - 750 Fly High
2 - 400 Fly Highs

Total Cost: ~ $900

(I had all but one of the 1100 bags that I still needed to purchase to complete the setup. Otherwise the cost would have been a bit more.)

bergermaister
06-22-2011, 03:51 AM
First I started with the existing Rule 1100 pump and ran new 1" fill line up under the floor and out the steering cable hole under the helm. This connects to a 1" vented loop I mounted up as high under the dash as I could.

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1060980.jpg

Then the fill line drops down through a newly cut hole into my basement and angles back to the fill port on top of the bag. My drain line comes off the bottom of the bag directly to a T1200 pump, then along the top edge of the compartment and up under the playpen front seating and then arounder the helm to meet up with the T valve.

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1060981.jpg


I ran my vent line up through another new hole (next to the fill) from the basement into the helm and then into a check valve before tying into the T the drain is connected to. The other end of the T heads to a new 1" stainless thru hull out the side for both the vent/drain exit.

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1060984.jpg

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1070027.jpg

Once my subwoofer is back in place all the stuff up there will be hidden.

bergermaister
06-22-2011, 03:52 AM
You can sort of see my existing Rule pump buried in there that will be filling the front bag.
http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1060985.jpg

For the rear fill pumps I went with a 1" intake to a ball valve to a T fitting, then 1" hose barbs to a very short hunk of hose and right into the Attwood 3902 fittings on the bottom of the Tsunami Pumps. I did a lot of research on this part and as many already know there are no adapters from the T-1200 down to a 1" thread. There is to 3/4" but I didn't want to lose any flow.

Going this route also gave me some flexibility in pushing the pumps around and making them fit but still have a little bit of give.

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1060975.jpg

An important lesson learned here was dealing with the tapered threads on the thru hull intake. I was worried about my pumps sitting too high off the floor and not priming so I decided to take about an inch off the thru hull fitting. The trick is they are a tapered thread so I had to put a taper back on the thru hull in order to get the ball valve to screw onto it. Luckily my neighbor is a plumber and had a mongo pipe thread set and a few beers later we had it! This was a huge delay in progress trying to fix the threads though.

After measuring about 10 times I had roughly a half inch to spare to get my pumps where I wanted them in the cramped bilge space and still be able to move the shutoff handle if I ever needed to.

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1060986.jpg

Time to cut a hole!

bergermaister
06-22-2011, 03:56 AM
I drilled a pilot hole from the top down just to make sure I was in the right spot. It turned out to be almost symmetrical with my existing intake for the old Rule 1100 which was nice. I taped over the pilot hole and busted out the hole saw. This is the part where it takes some liquid courage (aka more beer) before you pull the trigger...

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/IMG_1889.jpg

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/IMG_1890.jpg

But not bad after you're done. I used a fair amount of the marine adhesive on the thru hull going in to ensure a good seal.

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/IMG_1891.jpg

Here's what it looks like again with the pumps in place.

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1070285.jpg

bergermaister
06-22-2011, 03:57 AM
The Attwood 3902 fittings (straight ones below) I mentioned saved me some space and were easier to install than twising a 90 degree elbow on. I could heat up the ballast hose first with a heat gun, lube up the barb fitting a little, and work the hose cleanly on while sitting at my work bench rather than ripping my knuckles apart trying to do it in the compartment with the fitting already on the pump. They are meant for a 1-1/8" ID hose but you can get a 1" hose on them with a little persistance and a good heat gun.

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1070013.jpg

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/IMG_1954.jpg

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1070039.jpg

bergermaister
06-22-2011, 03:58 AM
So now it was time to go from the fill pumps to the vented loops and also where I second guessed myself going with the 1" stuff. Why? The 1" vented loops are freakin huge compared to a 3/4" loop! The one in the front under the helm was pretty easy, but I had a hard time finding a reasonable place to mount them in the back where they would fit and wouldn't be really visible.

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1060989.jpg

I ended up pulling off the fuel filler panel and was able to stuff both the vented loop, one way valve, and fill/vent lines under it. Kind of a pain in the butt but in the end it was concealed and clean. The hoses are all tucked up into the gunwale as far as possible. Thanks to Newty for that tip!

Before-
http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1060987.jpg

After-
http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1070127.jpg

And all closed up again-
http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1070128.jpg

bergermaister
06-22-2011, 04:01 AM
Did the same thing on the port side but I don't have a panel to cover it all up on that side - may make one though.

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1070282.jpg

The drains for the rear bags are another T-1200 right off the bag, running parallel to the engine on the sides of the comparment and up to a T-fitting. I have the port side bag venting and draining out the starboard side of the boat and vice versa. The idea here is that when the boat is listing over all loaded up with ballast that my bags are not going to drain out the vent since

it will be on the high side of the boat. The vent lines have a one way check valve in-line before they meet up with the T-fitting and the drain line so no water going back in the bag when they are supposed to be draining.

Couple shots of the drain/fill lines and drain pumps-
http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1070281.jpg

That off color gray box is where one of my batteries used to be - also moved during this project up to under the glove box and the second battery from the rear port side as well.
http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1070280.jpg

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1070275.jpg

bergermaister
06-22-2011, 04:02 AM
When it's all buttoned up again the hoses are pretty hidden. I left a good amount of slack in the vent lines to move up and down with the bags as they fill and drain. Same thing with the fill lines in the back. Had to make sure there was nothing for them to get caught up on and no moving parts to rub against when they are rising and falling with the bag.

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1070284.jpg

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1070278.jpg

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1070277.jpg

bergermaister
06-22-2011, 04:03 AM
Drilling for the stainless thru hulls in the side was a piece of cake. On the starboard side I actually rerouted my bilge line to go next to the ballast and gave it a new 3/4" fitting as well.

It used to run out the back. Now it's all tucked away under the fuel filler panel cover.

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1070046.jpg

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1070047.jpg

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1070049.jpg

My trick for getting the stainless thru hulls nice and tight without marring them all up was to use the handle end of a 1/2" breaker bar. The fittings I got have a couple little teeth on the inside and oblong shape of the handle fit perfectly to hold them in place while I cranked down the jam nut on the inside.

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1070045.jpg

I also used some marine sealant here as well to fill in any gaps under the fittings and the curvature of the hull.

bergermaister
06-22-2011, 04:05 AM
I had to figure out what to do with my old thru hulls out the back. After some brilliant suggestions here on the forum I ended up using some marine sealant and some plastic hole plugs, kind of like a grommet for cables in a desk but no hole. They snapped in there pretty good. It will work for now until i come up with a permanent fix.

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1070286.jpg

After doing some hunting around for a switch plate I decided to make my own. Picked up a piece of black textured ABS plastic from a stereo shop and mocked up a layout on the computer. After everything lined up and looked good I cut out the openings with a dremel. I had some ideas of doing backlit LEDs and engraving at a trophy shop but I ended up just wanting it to be functional and done!

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/IMG_1902.jpg

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/IMG_1904.jpg

I'll have to go to Fedex or a print shop and get some laminated labels made for the rest of it. I want something that will look good and last more than one season of being in the sun.

bergermaister
06-22-2011, 04:06 AM
I played around a lot with where I wanted the switches for the ballast system to be. I wasn't going to use my old single switch from the Rule pump and my dash is pretty limited for expansion so it was time again to do some cutting. After playing around a lot and finding out my original location would be a bad spot to bump my arm against a lot I decided to move my stereo remote over by the ignition switch and use the old remote location for the switch plate.

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/IMG_1955.jpg

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/IMG_1959.jpg

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1070287.jpg

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1070288.jpg

bergermaister
06-22-2011, 04:08 AM
A few more of the surgery... The dremel wasn't going to cut it and I ended up using a fine tooth blade on a jigsaw to cut out the rest of the square. I was amazed at how smoothly it cut without chipping up the gelcoat!


http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1070289.jpg

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1070292.jpg

Looks like it will be a good fit - very visible yet not as easy to bump accidentally.

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1070291.jpg

The switch plate is probably bigger than it needs to be but I did this on purpose. Using the same size plate I could redo it in the future and add a 4th or even a 5th switch just by bunching them closer together. Or I could add some other switches for lighting, stereo, whatever. A piece of ABS is pretty cheap and easy to carve up for a new layout if I ever desire. And the holes I cut will allow for some expansion if the time ever comes.

bergermaister
06-22-2011, 04:14 AM
So now I'm into wiring up the pumps. The wiring diagram Wakemakers includes with the switches makes it super simple, there's just a lot of wires as you get going...

I decided to hide my in-line fuses behind the panel rather than trying to incorporate access to a fuse into the front. Where they'll be located they're easy to get to and will help to have a cleaner look.

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1070293.jpg

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1070294.jpg

And that's all for tonight. It got dark on me...

In addition to the ballast project (that has been taking forever) I mentioned I had to move my batteries from the back to the front, along with the switch and all new 1/0 gauge wiring back to the starter and engine block. In order to do that I also ended up pulling all three of my amps out since the wiring for the distribution blocks would have to change. And while I was at that I swapped out one of them for a bigger amp to power the tower speakers. And then of course since I wasn't happy with the cabin speakers being under powered so of course I swapped those out for a different set.

So I guess this was more than just a ballast project - all that along with months of crappy weather explains why it has been taking so long!

Hope to have a few more finishing touches sometime this week.

moombadaze
06-22-2011, 08:33 AM
WOW, very impresive with lots of detail. Bet your going to be super happy with all that hard work

jmvotto
06-22-2011, 09:11 AM
Awesome Job!!!

bergermaister
06-22-2011, 10:18 AM
Thanks guys - it's been a learning experience. I've pulled apart, rerouted and cut up things I probably wouldn't have had the courage to do if it weren't for examples I read about and saw on here!

Had the chance a week or so ago to do a bag check as well when I was swapping around fittings. The yellow 400's just had a little duct tape over the fittings so they leaked a little but no rips or tears from what I could see. Filled with air not water!

That's 400 + 400 + 750 + 1100 + 1100 = 3,750lbs total if I were able to fill it all!

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1070051.jpg

Hmmm, now all I need is a boat...
Sitting next to these 1100's you feel how big they really are. Kind of feels like a coffin!
http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1070052.jpg

How's this for perspective...
http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1070056.jpg

mnpracing
06-22-2011, 10:27 AM
How is the basement set up on your boat to be able to get a 750 in there? I can barely get the stock 400 full without popping the hatch door up.

mmandley
06-22-2011, 10:43 AM
WOW super nice Berg really nice work on all points man.

bergermaister
06-22-2011, 10:53 AM
MNPRACING - That's where I'm spoiled a little - the basement on my boat is huge. I'd compare it more to an XLV than anything else. I can fill a 750 until it's ready to burst and still be able close the walk-thru seat down without it popping up. I have the playpen style front seating so there's still storage room in front of the bag too.

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/moomba_8.jpg

These aren't the best shots but gives you an idea of the cavernous space.

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/moomba_28.jpg

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1060983.jpg

If I get tired of messing with the 400's or I can find the right deal I may go with one of the 1180 Gravity Games bags under there in place of the 750. It should fit but will not fill 100% towards the bow where the compartment is not as deep following the lines of the hull.

brain_rinse
06-22-2011, 11:00 AM
Great install, and thanks for all the detailed pics and explanation! I don't have gold stars but I do have stickys.

mnpracing
06-22-2011, 12:27 PM
MNPRACING - That's where I'm spoiled a little - the basement on my boat is huge. I'd compare it more to an XLV than anything else. I can fill a 750 until it's ready to burst and still be able close the walk-thru seat down without it popping up. I have the playpen style front seating so there's still storage room in front of the bag too.

If I get tired of messing with the 400's or I can find the right deal I may go with one of the 1180 Gravity Games bags under there in place of the 750. It should fit but will not fill 100% towards the bow where the compartment is not as deep following the lines of the hull.

Thanks! I never quite knew what the playpen seating arrangement meant until now. That is a huge amount of space.

cab13367
06-22-2011, 11:11 PM
Great install and how to post Berg! Just one question - is the single 1" intake enough for two 1200's to operate at full capacity?

bergermaister
06-23-2011, 12:49 AM
Great question - supposedly according to some advertising the 1" would be enough to feed both but I have some doubts. Only a field test will tell for sure. Thing is I'll probably only be filling one side at a time to full capacity for surfing so a good portion of the time only one fill pump will be running.

For wakeboarding I'm the only one who loads up the ballast in the family so I can be patient and go one side at a time if needed. A few of my buddies are still beginners so we'll see what summer holds in store for them.

I can't imagine boarding behind this thing with 2200 lbs in the rear of it and all 1550lbs up front. If the boat would even float, or get up to 20-22mph with all that weight it would probably be like hitting a wall. Of course I'll have to experiment with it in the coming months!

If I had to I suppose I could upgrade to a 1-1/4" thru hull, ball valve, etc. but everything is just bigger and it's tight in there already. Individual 1" thru hulls would take up a lot of space as well. Just have to see how it goes.

newty
06-23-2011, 10:32 AM
Looks as good in practice as it did in beer theory! Nice work man!
Really nice job keeping everything tucked and clean.

Exactly how I would have done it.

Crazy to see those bags lined up! Thats a LOT OF WATER!

We need to try a surf bowl this summer with the boats!

As far as the shared intake, did a bunch or research on it (as I did it myself), there are some limitations with this set-up but because it is shared, but because the the run of shared pipe is so short that any loss of flow will all but be elliminated by having only 3" of that shared pipe. That and the way Berg will be using it makes complete sense.

mmandley
06-23-2011, 10:37 AM
@ Berg, i cant see you running full ballast for wake boarding but LOL.

We do run 2500 quite a bit for a couple of the guys who come out and let me say the wave looks big from the boat but its down right scary from the water lol.

I mean its hard to even cross it with out it punting you into the air and im not ready to catch air. Ok well i am my skill level isnt lol.

I can say out of the hole my prop does great, then from 10 to 17 it slows a little as the boat is plowing and i generaly have it 3/4 throttle at this point. Then it hits 22 and will zip to 27 and then i have to slow it back down.

Its the boarder who pays for this as he/she has to wait till i can get the boat at the right speed.

Using cruise for this? Forget it the cruise wont give the full throttle it takes to plane out so i have to remember the RPM and punch it way past then slow it down again and generaly end up right around 23mph

bergermaister
06-23-2011, 11:05 AM
Using cruise for this? Forget it the cruise wont give the full throttle it takes...

Don't have to worry about that as my boat is equipped with the CBRA system (Cruise by Right Arm). Makes small wake adjustments tricky for surfing sometimes but no biggy besides that. This is also why I didn't mount my ballast switches in the originally planned spot which would have been kind of behind the throttle up high like the old stereo remote location. Resting my arm there to help make smoother/smaller throttle changes I think would have made for a lot of accidental filling and draining.

"Beer Theory" - I like that! Goes right along with a sign I saw on a guy's garage door that said------ WARNING - Modifications Inspired by Testosterone and Beer.

And YES - been thinking about a 2 boat surfbowl all winter!

newty
06-23-2011, 11:26 AM
WARNING - Modifications Inspired by Testosterone and Beer.


^^WINNING!^^

bbuhtz
06-23-2011, 04:21 PM
WARNING - Modifications Inspired by Testosterone and Beer.




Awesome! Like the install too.

bergermaister
06-23-2011, 05:39 PM
Hmmm - I'm thinking I may have a new signature line there!

bergermaister
06-27-2011, 11:30 AM
Finished the wiring and final details of the install and all went smoothly. Then got dewinterized DIY Style and out on the water for some testing.

Ahhh, it's a beautiful thing.

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1070341.jpg

The new fill and drains in the rear work great. I timed the fill on the 1100 port side and it came in right around 7.5 minutes to fill roughly 90%. I had to stop and back off some as the bag was too full and my compartment wouldn't close without something giving up. Mainly just the fill valve fitting sticking up a couple inches. When I was filling by hand it was just plugged and I didn't need to worry about that. I think I can adjust the bag around a little as it's filling next time and get more into it though and with just me and 2 kids aboard I laid that rub rail right down touching the water!

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/1100-port.jpg

However I did have a couple issues.

My vented loops are dripping pretty heavy when filling. I cranked down the hose clamps as tight as I could and still have some drip from around the edge of the hose, nothing from the vents though. I may pull them off and add a little silicone, then tighten back down. During install the hose went on really easy which I guess is an indicator. No unwanted filling or draining though!

I do have a wiring problem with the stock Rule pump. Everything ran flawlessly in the driveway. Get out on the water and the center switch is dead. Blown fuse. Of course I didn't bring extras :mad: so I swapped one out from the starboard switch to try. Blew immediately. Funny thing is I used the wiring that was already in place for the Rule pump. I gave up after that so didn't get the center bag filled or the bow bags to experiment with the wake. Will have to wait until next time.

brain_rinse
06-27-2011, 11:58 AM
I had a similar issue with leaky loops. A few wraps of electrical tape on the end of the loop before putting the hose on it fixed it up nicely.

bergermaister
06-27-2011, 06:27 PM
Thanks Dan - think I like that idea better than gooping it up. Going to troubleshoot tonight when I get home. The drips aren't hurting anything but I can't have that.

I suppose it's possible the Rule 1100 sucked up a stick or something. Weird that it worked flawlessly in the driveway only hours before hitting the water. I wasn't all that excited to go underneath to inspect though!

bergermaister
06-30-2011, 04:24 PM
One thing I forgot to mention when wiring the rocker switches for the ballast pumps - the wiring diagram included with them was exactly opposite for fill and drain pump leads. At first I thought I was going crazy or had one too many beers helping me out, but after triple checking it that was it. Strange... Easy enough to correct though.

After the problem on the test run I inspected wiring, replaced fuses, and tested my Rule pump it worked perfectly again without actually changing anything. Also strange. Before I hit the water this weekend I may stick my fake-a-lake on the intake and test it. See if water going into the pump was causing it to short out somehow or if possibly I've got a gremlin in there somewhere still. Maybe it was just a stick lodged up in the pump somehow that came out after I trailered it?

cab13367
06-30-2011, 05:01 PM
After the problem on the test run I inspected wiring, replaced fuses, and tested my Rule pump it worked perfectly again without actually changing anything. Also strange. Before I hit the water this weekend I may stick my fake-a-lake on the intake and test it. See if water going into the pump was causing it to short out somehow or if possibly I've got a gremlin in there somewhere still. Maybe it was just a stick lodged up in the pump somehow that came out after I trailered it?

Berg, if you are testing the Rule pump in the driveway dry, it is not pulling enough current to blow the fuse because it doesn't have any load on it. Once you try it on the water, it is under load (trying to push water) which increases the current required which blows the fuse. That's my theory anyway :)

bergermaister
07-02-2011, 03:07 AM
So I put the fake-a-lake on the intake, turn the hose on wide open, the pump runs and stays on but acts like it's not priming. No water going up the line. The boat was sitting on a bit of an uphill slope so the pump would have been working that much harder to go up to the helm, then up to the vented loops and back down to the bag. Maybe only a water test will work where the pump is sitting below the water line and the boat more level...?

I didn't feel like moving the fake-a-lake over to the other intake with the tsunami 1200's to see if they could prime off it. Sliding around on the wet driveway under the trailer just wasn't appealing to me... Guess we'll see what happens this weekend on the river!

cab13367
07-02-2011, 12:54 PM
Berg,

I was talking to Jason at Wakemakers yesterday about upgrading one of my T800's to a T1200 and he recommended going to a Rule 1100 instead as it has a 3/4" standard threaded inlet and a 1" outlet. According to Jason, the 3/4" inlet is not a restriction given that it's a short distance to the thru hull intake and there is an infinite water supply. This makes sense to me. So any reason you went with the T1200 instead of the Rule 1100? I know the Rule cost $10 more but you have to buy two $7 adapters with the T1200 which negates any cost savings.

FYI, my current set up is that I have one 1" thru hull intake that tees off into the stock Rule on one leg and into two T800's on the other leg. Everything (the tee and the valves) is 1" up to the pump. The stock Rule fills the surf sac (it's also a 3/4" inlet, 1" outlet BTW) and then one T800 fills the front sac and the other fills the starboard rear locker. I am wanting to replace the T800 that feed the starboard rear locker with a bigger pump as I am starting to have more and more goofy surfers on my crew. The kicker will be whether or not a larger pump will fit in the space where the T800 is now. It's a pretty tight fit as it is.

Thanks,

Al

bergermaister
07-03-2011, 02:23 PM
Well since I was essentially starting from scratch I figured I would not regret going with 1" all the way. I've heard varying opinions on flow drop or restriction going down to 3/4" anywhere in the line. I don't know and didn't want to research it to death so I figured I'd rule that out of the equation.

As for the pumps I was always impressed with the T-1200 handheld I have so figured that would be a solid, economical performer as long as the fitting issue wouldn't be a show stopper. Plus I scored three of the five T-1200's I bought over the winter on eBay for around $25 each. Mid $30's for the other two off Amazon. So buying in volume I guess I saved a little over just a single pump setup. If I'm not mistaken the T-1200's are smaller overall than the Rule which is a bonus in those cramped quarters.


Update from yesterday related to this, I was pretty frustrated with my whole ballast system on the river. You were absolutely right on the Rule pump having a load on it - fuses blew immediately. I did a quick fitting swap and used my handheld to fill it. Sometime soon I will be ripping it out and putting another T-1200 in there I believe.

Also I had issues with draining. I'm guessing the 1100 bags were bunching up too much in the rear and I could not get them to drain! Not very happy bobbing around trying push and pull the bag to get the flow going. Basically an exercise in futility. So I put the handheld on it temporarily and got the bag drained down enough, pushed and pulled and cursed like a sailor and finally got the drain pump flowing.

Replaced the fuse on the center switch and hit EMPTY and only got a trickle out of it like the boat was taking a lazy pee. Once again, pushed, pulled and cursed the 750 bag in the belly to no avail. Got back to shore and messed with it some more and it appeared the pump was airlocked? Flipping the switch on/off a few times seemed to break it free and then it started draining fast like it was supposed to.

This "turnkey" system is taking longer to fill/drain than just throwing bags around and using a handheld because of all the issues. I need to figure out a better way to keep the bags from bunching at the rear and plugging the drain when they get full or I will pull my hair out.

cab13367
07-05-2011, 01:21 PM
Well since I was essentially starting from scratch I figured I would not regret going with 1" all the way. I've heard varying opinions on flow drop or restriction going down to 3/4" anywhere in the line. I don't know and didn't want to research it to death so I figured I'd rule that out of the equation.

As for the pumps I was always impressed with the T-1200 handheld I have so figured that would be a solid, economical performer as long as the fitting issue wouldn't be a show stopper. Plus I scored three of the five T-1200's I bought over the winter on eBay for around $25 each. Mid $30's for the other two off Amazon. So buying in volume I guess I saved a little over just a single pump setup. If I'm not mistaken the T-1200's are smaller overall than the Rule which is a bonus in those cramped quarters..

Makes sense.




Update from yesterday related to this, I was pretty frustrated with my whole ballast system on the river. You were absolutely right on the Rule pump having a load on it - fuses blew immediately. I did a quick fitting swap and used my handheld to fill it. Sometime soon I will be ripping it out and putting another T-1200 in there I believe.

What size fuse do you have for your Rule? I have a 10A on mine and it doesn't blow.

bergermaister
07-05-2011, 01:30 PM
On my new switch setup I wired in and ran 5amps for each one. That was the suggestion for the Tsunami 1200's. I suppose I could try a 10amp before I rip the old Rule pump out and throw it away.

Per my email to you, I also sort of resolved my draining issues - just the bags bunching up and a little airlock. I scooted the bags out a little before filling to give plenty of space. I did notice the drain pumps acted a little funny and didn't really want to prime off the full bag. A couple flicks of the switch on and off with a pause in between and then they primed just fine. I wasn't expecting to have that sort of a glitch.

cab13367
07-05-2011, 01:49 PM
On my new switch setup I wired in and ran 5amps for each one. That was the suggestion for the Tsunami 1200's. I suppose I could try a 10amp before I rip the old Rule pump out and throw it away.

Per my email to you, I also sort of resolved my draining issues - just the bags bunching up and a little airlock. I scooted the bags out a little before filling to give plenty of space. I did notice the drain pumps acted a little funny and didn't really want to prime off the full bag. A couple flicks of the switch on and off with a pause in between and then they primed just fine. I wasn't expecting to have that sort of a glitch.

Berg, I did a quick search and found that the Rule 2000 pulls 8.4 amps at 12V under load (probably closer to 10A at 13.6V, i.e., when your engine is running). By comparison, the Tsunami T1200 pulls 4.0 amps at 13.6V (says so right on the pump). So that's why your Rule is blowing your 5A fuse.

Yeah, when I start filling my bags, I make sure to pull it out a little ways from the rear wall to make room for the fittings and I've never had any issues draining.

The thing we have to understand is that these systems, although automatic, are not foolproof so we have to do these little things to make sure they work right, as you are finding out :) .

Al

bergermaister
07-05-2011, 01:56 PM
Excellent - thank you so much. You may have just saved me a few bucks and a few hours of messing around throwing away perfectly good parts!

I love this forum. :D

cab13367
07-05-2011, 05:40 PM
Excellent - thank you so much. You may have just saved me a few bucks and a few hours of messing around throwing away perfectly good parts!

I love this forum. :D

Glad I could help. Of course, if you are intent on throwing away that old, good for nothing Rule, I'd be happy to take it off your hands :)

bergermaister
07-21-2011, 11:35 PM
Okay, not to beat this to death but here's something to seriously consider if you are on the fence between doing a hose clamp setup like I did or going with all plumbed fittings screwed together.

My port side fill pump started giving me problems - running really loud and only filling at maybe 30% rate or so. Figured there must be something stuck in the line or the pump that is blocking the flow and making the pump work extra hard.

Now anyone who's poked there head in there knows the bilge area is tight even before you start adding plumbing and pumps. Mine was no exception. One fill pump is up snug against an engine mount, the other end of the T manifold the pump is right up against the back of my gas tank. If this had been all hard lined together it would have meant taking everything off, breaking the seals, some wrenching, busted knuckles and cursing.

Instead, with this setup it was one hose clamp, a little wiggling and a push and I had the fill pump laying in my hand.

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/pumpfix1.jpg

A quick twist and the pump housing was out and I found a bunch of fir needles and a thick grass reed that had somehow lodged itself in there.

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/pumpfix2.jpg

Brushed it off, stuck it back together, tightened up the hose clamp, and tested. Perfect again and under 5 minutes total. No disconnecting wires, other hoses, etc. No sealing it with teflon tape and wrenching it back together. Easily something you could do on the water if needed.

Food for thought for anyone out there contemplating how they want to do their setup... :D

txduckman07
08-10-2011, 11:09 AM
I'm doing a very similar install this winter. Berg has done his homework and been a great help to me. I'll be doing 750s in the rear, 400 ski locker, possibly an IBS filling off the ski locker pump. Stock Rule 1100 filling the front, eliminate sprinkler valve setup. I'll be adding 2 additional 3/4" thru-hulls and a Rule 1100 for each rear bag. Upgrading the 500 gph empty pumps to 800 gph and retain the 3/4" drain lines. Stock Hippo ballast has 3 individual fill and drain switches so I'll be able to use my stock plate with a little rewiring. My drain/vent routing will be identical.

jasonwm
08-15-2011, 04:40 PM
Sorry I'm a little late to the party, but nice install Berg!

Did you ever get your drain pump issues resolved? If not, I can see why you're having problems from your pics, so let me know and I can outline the fix for you, or anyone else that is interested.

mnpracing
08-15-2011, 04:46 PM
Did you ever get your drain pump issues resolved? If not, I can see why you're having problems from your pics, so let me know and I can outline the fix for you, or anyone else that is interested.

Jason, please share here so that we can all benefit. Thanks.

bergermaister
08-15-2011, 04:47 PM
Thanks and thanks for all your help along the way.

If you've got suggestions for improved drain pump setup I'm all ears. I believe a small part of it was bag bunching but it is still a little hit and miss with getting the drain pumps running right away. They act like they are air locked too much/often for my liking. I eventually get them to go but seems like it should be easier.

jasonwm
08-16-2011, 04:11 PM
OK, there are just a couple of issues with the drain pump configuration that are going to lead to inconsistent functionality. Reference this picture for the discussion, as it gives a clear view of the drain setup.

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1070275.jpg

First, aerator pumps, like the Attwood Tsunami pumps you used, are not self-priming, which means they can push water, but they can't pull. Because of that it's crucial that the pump be located as close to the water source as possible; in the case of fill pumps that right on the intake (which is great in your install, and why you don't have any issues), and for drain pumps, that means right at the bag. Most people are familiar with that, but even the 8-10" that you've seperated the pump from the bag will impact its ability to prime correctly, you're relying on gravity to get water from the bag to where the pump is.

Second, because aerator pumps aren't self-priming they need to be installed in a configuration that allows any air in the system to be bled out. If you look at your drain pump, the discharge fitting is on the bottom, so any air that gets into the pump housing will be stock in there. If that happens, the pump will be air locked until you clear it, or until the attitude of the boat is changed enough (either by ballast, wakes, or motion).

Ideally I would say shorten the hose between the W746 and the pump to be as short as physically possible AND turn the pump over, but you could probably get away with just turning rotating the pump 180 degrees and see most, if not all, of your problems go away.

Hopefully that helps.

bergermaister
08-16-2011, 05:40 PM
Thanks Jason! The push/pull explanation makes perfect sense. I'll spin those pumps around before my next outing and see how it does. Then shorten up the lines and move the pumps if needed.

jasonwm
08-16-2011, 05:45 PM
Cool, let me know how it work out for you.

cab13367
08-17-2011, 02:14 AM
Jason,

Not sure I totally agree with everything you are saying. My drain pumps are mounted below the rear locker floor so there is more hose between the bag and the pump compared to Berg's set up and I have never had any problems with draining the bags. I always just make sure I pull the bag away from the rear ski locker wall enough so the 90 degree drain fitting has room to lay flat. I always thought that the fact that the pump is mounted below the bottom of the bag means there is positive pressure going into the pump so it does not air lock. Anyway, my drain pump set up from the factory has always worked flawlessly.

Al

lsvboombox
08-17-2011, 09:49 AM
Attwood does state that in order to prevent airlock the pump outputs should be located bewteen the 12 and 2 oclock positions... I have had many issues with airlock on my bass boats but I think when you have 1200 pounds of water pushing thru the lines there shouldnt be an issue emptying.. filling would be an different story...

bergermaister
08-17-2011, 12:52 PM
I was thinking that much weight would create plenty of force for priming too but maybe not... Easy enough for me to reposition my pumps and give it a try. Possibly playing hookie from work and going out tomorrow, if not then Saturday for sure. Will post up the results after changing the drain pump angles.

bergermaister
08-21-2011, 03:02 AM
Follow-up to spinning the pumps around so the exit port is on top. It seems to have worked like a charm. Pumps performed flawlessly today without any airlock problems. Actually performed exactly like it was originally intended. Switching surf sides takes 6-7 minutes now - one 1100 fills while the 1100 on the other side drains. Love it.

Thanks for the advice Jason.

Actually love it even more that 3-4 of the guys out with us agreed (unprovoked) that my surf wake was a lot better than my buddy's Malibu with all the push button gadgets and auto-settings that cost 2-3x what my boat did. hahahaha :cool:

jasonwm
08-25-2011, 09:56 PM
Great, glad it solved your problems!

08LSV
08-25-2011, 11:57 PM
Anytime Jason at wakemakers gives advice he will have my complete attention from now on. I thought I new enough to handle my own ballast upgrade.... I thought wrong..... Everything he tried to talk me into or out of I ignored, from drilling new intakes (what he recommended) vs. using my one existing 3/4" (what i wanted) to using reversible pumps (Him) vs. Aerator (Me). He even recommended the stock type tubing, but I wanted the "Cadillac" of ballast tubing and it leaks like crazy because it is so hard to get the hose clamps on in a good position. Don't get me wrong you can set it up either way but I spent more time jacking with it than it would take me to just fill and empty each bag with a Tsunami 1200 hand held. Now I am redoing my whole system the way he recommended me to do it in the first place. It's not cheaper when you have to do it twice. Sorry just had to give Jason some props for his knowledge.