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View Full Version : Reversible ballast pump locations on '09 or newer LSV?



08LSV
08-31-2011, 05:50 AM
Hey guy's getting ready to start my switch to reversible Johnson pumps. I have seen a few peoples different install locations for the pumps, but I am wondering where the pumps are installed on the '09 or newer LSV with factory reversible pumps and GIII. Anybody got any pics they would like to share? I would like to make it as close to factory as possible. I really appreciate the help. I am going to try to document my process for a possible DIY thread, not that it hasn't been done already but just to show different ways.

Thanks

lsvboombox
08-31-2011, 07:23 AM
Mine are on the transom wall of the starboard rear locker. There is a false wall to hide them.. you lose abour 6-8 inches of your locker

08LSV
08-31-2011, 07:36 AM
Mine are on the transom wall of the starboard rear locker. There is a false wall to hide them.. you lose abour 6-8 inches of your locker

Thanks. Do you think you could snap a pic when you have a chance (I am mostly a visual learner)?

Canuckle Head
08-31-2011, 12:48 PM
Hi 08LSV,

Sorry I haven't gotten you that wiring diagram yet. I forgot to pull it out of my glove box this morning before coming to work. Will leave a reminder in my phone so I don't forget.

As far as mounting on the back wall, I thought about doing that but decided against it cause it will limit how full your 750's will get. I would seriously consider Jester's setup rather than mounting on the back of the transom.

Cheers,

Wade

cab13367
08-31-2011, 03:26 PM
Just curious why you are going with the reversible pump set up? Some issues with it as far as I know are much more expensive pumps, not as fast as the 1200 gph aerator pumps, and the impellers burn out if left running dry, have to mess with automatic timers to run pumps on and off.

Seems like a well designed and executed aerator pump set up (three fill pumps, no sprinkler valves, etc) is better overall than the reversible pump set up and much less expensive. What am I missing?

Canuckle Head
08-31-2011, 03:47 PM
As far as mounting on the back wall, I thought about doing that but decided against it cause it will limit how full your 750's will get. I would seriously consider Jester's setup rather than mounting on the back of the transom.

Cheers,

Wade

Disregard as I forgot that you have an LSV so you should have plenty of room to mount on the back transom.

mmandley
08-31-2011, 03:55 PM
08LSV another thing to consider is these pumps take a ton of power to operate. When i was on the Wake9 boat that Wake Makers did in order to have maximum pump power the stereo was off and the engine was running. Now this might be a more extream set up then your going with but keep power in mind. If your not running 2 batteries then you should upgrade to it and you will need to be more carefull if you fill and drain while resting for swimming. Just some thoughts, but im very interested in following your thread to see what you come up with. Im at a point where i have to upgrade my ballast system. I have over bags it so bad it literally takes 30 minutes to fill and drain. Thats too long in my book lol.

lsvboombox
08-31-2011, 04:11 PM
Just curious why you are going with the reversible pump set up? Some issues with it as far as I know are much more expensive pumps, not as fast as the 1200 gph aerator pumps, and the impellers burn out if left running dry, have to mess with automatic timers to run pumps on and off.

Seems like a well designed and executed aerator pump set up (three fill pumps, no sprinkler valves, etc) is better overall than the reversible pump set up and much less expensive. What am I missing?

why would moomba go to the reversible pump system if the aerator pumps are a better system and much cheaper?

2 things i disagree with are
the impellers burn out - they are on timers and if my pumps arent pumping water they shut off before they would time out
having to mess with automatic timers to run pumps on and off- this takes seconds to setup and you can time a perfect fill and perfect empty

mmandley
08-31-2011, 04:14 PM
why would moomba go to the reversible pump system if the aerator pumps are a better system and much cheaper?

I think to get away with all the primming problems the Airators do have. Its very frustrating as a new owner when your ballast doest fill or drain and you take it to the shop to have them tell you its an air pocket and it will work its self out. Also im sure this few hundred dollars upgrade helps to support the 10K upgrade in price as the new modle that had them came out.

Canuckle Head
08-31-2011, 04:18 PM
Bingo on the airlock issue. Heck, I've had that problem with my hand bomb Tsunami pump when it came time to drain.

mmandley
08-31-2011, 04:25 PM
Bingo on the airlock issue. Heck, I had that problem with my hand bomb Tsunami pump when it came time to drain.

Worst i have had was a 750 bag full and the drain pump air locked on me. I couldnt get the line off and i couldnt reach the pump due to the bag. I had to keep fillign the bag to force water threw the drain pump then it finally started working. I used to get air lock all the time with my 400s. It sucked. I havnt had air lock or drain issues since i vented the bags.

Canuckle Head
08-31-2011, 04:41 PM
Worst i have had was a 750 bag full and the drain pump air locked on me. I couldnt get the line off and i couldnt reach the pump due to the bag. I had to keep fillign the bag to force water threw the drain pump then it finally started working. I used to get air lock all the time with my 400s. It sucked. I havnt had air lock or drain issues since i vented the bags.

Another nice part of the reversible system is that you don't have to vent the bags, they suck completely flat when done and if by chance there is any air in the bag it goes out the overflow.

I didn't go the timer route in mine either. I keep a pretty close eye on my bags and if by chance I forget or get distracted, I can hear the pumps change in sound when they're done. Impellers aren't that expensive to replace either if in fact you manage to wear one/them out.

You're right about the power though. They draw A LOT OF POWER! Like 13a each and require 25a fuses. I run my boat while filling/draining as I haven't installed the second battery yet. But for the 8 minutes it takes to fill all 4 bags it really isn't an issue for me. Oh, actually a bit longer if I have to fill the additinal 750 in the seating area which I do after the bow sac is full. I have put in a T-fitting in the line and a couple of shut off valves with an extra line for filling/draining that bag.

Got the idea from a Blog on a Centurion Avalanche Ballast Install. Kinda looks like this: http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_HkRsHS-1sTo/Sra4AkrsB4I/AAAAAAAABrU/WJyavdJkrnI/s320/Aux+line+starboard+line+%5B640x480%5D.JPG

But I have this on the end of my hose:
http://www.wakemakers.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/300x300/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/f/l/fly_high_fitting_w738_3.jpg

Works Awesome!

08LSV
08-31-2011, 05:30 PM
Hi 08LSV,

Sorry I haven't gotten you that wiring diagram yet. I forgot to pull it out of my glove box this morning before coming to work. Will leave a reminder in my phone so I don't forget.

As far as mounting on the back wall, I thought about doing that but decided against it cause it will limit how full your 750's will get. I would seriously consider Jester's setup rather than mounting on the back of the transom.

Cheers,

Wade


Thanks Wade. No worries about the wiring diagram. I found one that came with the rocker switch I ordered from wakemakers. I forgot about it coming with paperwork. Was that the same one you used?

I have thought about using jester's mounting place but I am not sure yet. I saw a pic of some pumps mounted below the ski pylon on the back rest somewhere but I can't find them anymore.

lsvboombox
08-31-2011, 05:37 PM
Thanks Wade. No worries about the wiring diagram. I found one that came with the rocker switch I ordered from wakemakers. I forgot about it coming with paperwork. Was that the same one you used?

I have thought about using jester's mounting place but I am not sure yet. I saw a pic of some pumps mounted below the ski pylon on the back rest somewhere but I can't find them anymore.

If you mount them in the rear lockers I would mount them in the opposite side of your surf side. In and lsv a 750 will fill regardless but when you go to the 1100(which you will soon) the pumps do block off a lot of space(weight)

nevermind I see you have the 1100's.. def mount them in opposite side of surf side..

I cant get a pic until the weekend..

Canuckle Head
08-31-2011, 06:02 PM
Thanks Wade. No worries about the wiring diagram. I found one that came with the rocker switch I ordered from wakemakers. I forgot about it coming with paperwork. Was that the same one you used?

I have thought about using jester's mounting place but I am not sure yet. I saw a pic of some pumps mounted below the ski pylon on the back rest somewhere but I can't find them anymore.

Yes, I started with that but it wasn't right for the GIII switch that I had. Let me get it from my boat, scan it and post here just in case your GIII switch is/was wired like mine.

08LSV
08-31-2011, 06:12 PM
Guys thanks for all the advice, I am sure it will come in very handy. Just to try to,answer all the questions in one post. I do already have two batteries and have never run either of them out of power even blasting the stereo for an hour or two in the cove.

I did the upgrade to tsunami 800's like fman and have been plauged with problems.

1. Airlock is the baine of my exsistence.... I have on regular occasions had to over fill my 1100's to the point I thought I was going to crack the hull just to get them to drain. It does not work all the time and even then I can't get them to drain all the way. I find myself with my bad back crawling around in the locker trying to wrestle the bag over the side to drain it all the way. My vent lines siphon water back into the bag while draining. I know I could add check valves but with all the other problems its not worth it.

I can't even fill two bags at the same time as the pumps rob water from each other. I could fix this by drilling more holes in the hull, but that's what I was trying to avoid by choosing the aerator upgrade. Also trying to include my IBS one fill and two drains with the system is becoming a pain.

Now I just have the whole system disconected and use my tsunami 1200 to fill and drain everything and it is less work the my auto system.

I am over my hull drilling issues now.... I just want to get in the boat and enjoy my time without hassle.

And cost wise my enjoyment and less arguing with the gf because I am frustrated with the ballast is worth every penny. I mean heck $100 a year on impellars it probably the least I will spend on my boat all year.

Also I received a message back from fman the other day as I had asked before I installed my system if he still liked his system and would change anything... His response was sorry he was late getting back to me and he would not do the tsunami upgrade again. He bought a malibu and upgraded it with reversible pumps....

cab13367
08-31-2011, 08:23 PM
So I am at a loss as to why you are having these issues and why others report having “air lock issues” with their fill and drain pumps. I have not had any of these issues with my system. My system consists of:

• A single 1” intake feeding three fill pumps – the stock Rule 1200pgh, a Rule 1100gph, and a Tsunami 800 gph.
• A check valve on each rear bag fill line to prevent water from draining out of the bags.
• An Irritrol valve on the front fill line to prevent auto filling.
• Stock drain system – no vent lines.
• 750# rear bags, 400# ski locker bag.

I made sure to install the fill pumps as low as possible and certainly well below water line so as soon as I back the boat in the water, the head pressure fills the pumps and the piping to the pumps with water. I hit the fill switch and the bags start filling.

I make sure to position each bag so that there is room for the 90 degree drain fitting to sit flat when the bag is full, i.e., I pull the bag out about 2-3” from the rear wall.
That’s it. The bags fill every time and empty every time as they should. I do turn on the empty switches one more time on the way to the boat ramp when the boat is in a nose up attitude to allow as much water to be pumped out as possible.

Sure, there is about a gallon left in each bag that the drain pump doesn’t get out but that’s no big deal. My only complaint is that it takes the stock drain pump about 15 minutes to empty the 750 but that’s not a big deal and easy enough to upgrade to a 1200gph drain pump and 1” lines if I really wanted to.

I think this is a good discussion to have for those contemplating a ballast system upgrade over the winter.

lsvboombox
08-31-2011, 09:00 PM
How do you prevent auto filling on the rear bags? woulnt water just pass thru those aerator pumps and thru the check valve and fill the bags? are the rear bags above the water line? what about when underway does it force water into them?

08LSV
08-31-2011, 09:27 PM
So I am at a loss as to why you are having these issues and why others report having “air lock issues” with their fill and drain pumps. I have not had any of these issues with my system.

Cab, Thanks for the input. I have not ever had issues with the fill pumps air locking, only the drain. The only problem I have with the filling is that the pumps rob water from each other when running together or suck extra air in from the other hoses. No big deal as the bags are vented but it takes longer to fill that way. But that is my fault since I have them all on one intake. I am definitely not trying to "diss" anybody's system. I know some people like you that never have any problems at all from the aerators. To me if I am going to go through the trouble of drilling more intake holes and all of that I would rather just make my system as easy to use as possible. I figure that if I only have four pumps total to fill/drain everything it is just that much less to troubleshoot if there is a problem. With the aerator system that's 9 pumps, not that they go bad very often but still more pumps.

I also used the Premium clear tubing and it has been such a pain to keep it from leaking. I have crushed fittings just trying to get it to stop leaking.

I will still carry my trusty tsunami 1200 aerator just in case I ever have the need for it.



How do you prevent auto filling on the rear bags? woulnt water just pass thru those aerator pumps and thru the check valve and fill the bags? are the rear bags above the water line? what about when underway does it force water into them?

Not sure how Cab has his set up, but I used vented loops on the intake hoses going to each of my bags. I have never had auto filling issues since cutting the grate off my stock intake.

lsvboombox
08-31-2011, 10:57 PM
Not sure how Cab has his set up, but I used vented loops on the intake hoses going to each of my bags. I have never had auto filling issues since cutting the grate off my stock intake.

Thats the other great thing of the reversible pumps. one pump one line very simple system, no loops needed no check valves needed. no worrying about where you mount the pumps and whether there below the water line or the angle of the out put is correct... I got a few extra minutes to wait for the bags to fill with the slower pump.....

sort of like a set it and forget it deal.....

08LSV
09-01-2011, 12:45 AM
Yeah. Set it and forget it is exactly what I'm going for. Although I do have to pay attention to the draining as I will not have timers to turn the pumps off...

cab13367
09-01-2011, 02:20 AM
How do you prevent auto filling on the rear bags? woulnt water just pass thru those aerator pumps and thru the check valve and fill the bags? are the rear bags above the water line? what about when underway does it force water into them?

I removed the stock 3/4" intake with the scoop and replaced it with a mushroom type 1" intake. Since there is no sccop, water is not forced up the line when under way, so a vented loop is not necessary for the rear bags. Just splice in a simple $14 check valve on the fill hose to prevent auto draining. The front bag is a different story. I tried a vented loop but it still autofilled when underway since the bag is below the water line. So I finally went to an Irritrol for the front fill line.


Thats the other great thing of the reversible pumps. one pump one line very simple system, no loops needed no check valves needed. no worrying about where you mount the pumps and whether there below the water line or the angle of the out put is correct... I got a few extra minutes to wait for the bags to fill with the slower pump.....

sort of like a set it and forget it deal.....

Well, I think there are pluses and minuses to both but to your points above: I didn't use any loops, 2 check valves is a nothing deal - $30 and 5 minutes and it's done, the three jabsco pumps are huge and you still have to mount them someplace, and I don't know what angle of the output you are talking about. If you are starting from scratch, you are right - the install is simpler on with the reversibles. But if you already have an old style GIII, you already have the drain pumps and hoses in place so it's not a whole lot of work to redo the fill side. But I understand that you are partial to the new system and that's cool.


Yeah. Set it and forget it is exactly what I'm going for. Although I do have to pay attention to the draining as I will not have timers to turn the pumps off...

Be careful with that. There have been many times that I hit the drain pumps then got to talking or swimming or listening to the stereo, etc. and ended up leaving them on for an hour or more running dry. No harm done on an aerator pump but you will fry your impeller real quick with the reversibles if you forget to shut them off. And you can't tell when they are empty since you can't see the water stop coming out of the thru hull.

cab13367
09-01-2011, 02:25 AM
I am definitely not trying to "diss" anybody's system. I know some people like you that never have any problems at all from the aerators.

No worries. I think it's good to have this discussion for others out there that are contemplating a ballast system upgrade also. I'm just saying that when designed and executed properly, aerator pump systems can work great too and have some advantages over reversible pump systems, but also have some disadvantages.

bergermaister
09-01-2011, 02:03 PM
I'm with Al (Cab) on this one. I had serious airlock problems on my aerator drain pumps until I rotated them per Jason at WM's suggestion to have the exit line at the top of the pump (12 o'clock position) rather than bottom (6 o'clock) like my original install. Never a hesitation since doing that and my 1100's fit tight in the rear compartments with no excess room at all so bag bunching is pretty consistent.

Fillwise I understand the pumps fighting for flow and the lack of desire to drill more holes. Bumping up to a larger intake (1.5") and utilizing the same hole as your current intake, opened up to fit, could resolve that pretty quickly though.

A few simple check valves and vented loops eliminated all auto fill/drain issues and the install is all very simple, no timers to deal with, no mounting BIG pumps somewhere out of the way yet accessible, no heavy electrical draw, etc.

Overall I believe less expensive making some tweaks with the aerator system rather than going the full reversible pump route. And aren't the aerators typically a fast flow = faster fill/drain than the reversibles?

On a side note - I helped a buddy with his 08 Malibu fully expecting to see reversible pumps on his factory setup. His "high end" boat had Piranha aerators throughout.

cab13367
09-01-2011, 04:14 PM
And aren't the aerators typically a fast flow = faster fill/drain than the reversibles?

Yup, the $170 reversible pump on wakemakers site is rated 720 gph. The $40 Tsunami is rated 1200 gph. That is a significant difference especially when filling an 1100 lb bag.

lsvboombox
09-01-2011, 04:22 PM
Yup, the $170 reversible pump on wakemakers site is rated 720 gph. The $40 Tsunami is rated 1200 gph. That is a significant difference especially when filling an 1100 lb bag.

on paper it may look significant but in reality its another 5 minutes..... I guess if someone is impatient its a big deal. to me 5 minutes really isnt a big deal...

08LSV
09-01-2011, 05:29 PM
Like I said, to each there own. Both systems definitely have there advantages and draw backs. I definitely like the aerators with no sprinkler valves over the stock GIII. Being my first time to install a ballast system, I think I just got burned out trying to get it right with the aerators. I know it can be done as some of you have systems that work great. The extra fill time is not a problem for me. I would rather it take longer and just be easier for me, only having to worry about watching for draining the bags. I usually watch them drain anyway so it is not much of a change for me.

Canuckle Head
09-01-2011, 07:03 PM
Here's something you can't do with an aerator system:

This is the T off of my line that runs to the IBS:
http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww30/wedeh/Watersports/IMG_00000087.jpg?t=1314913034
Filler Up:
http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww30/wedeh/Watersports/IMG_00000091.jpg?t=1314912968
Draining:
http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww30/wedeh/Watersports/IMG_00000088.jpg

And here is the wiring diagram that I promised to send. Not sure if this makes sense or not as it was modified by my Marine Electrician buddy:
http://i702.photobucket.com/albums/ww30/wedeh/Watersports/IMG_00000100.jpg

08LSV
09-02-2011, 03:06 AM
Thanks That is great! I will print it out so I can take it with me this weekend. I am hoping to get it buttoned up by Sunday night...

Is there not way to T off a line when you use an aerator? I mean like if you T'd off and put valve in?

Canuckle Head
09-02-2011, 12:41 PM
Yes, you can T-Off the infill pump but how would you get the water back out of the bag? Aerator pumps are not reversible nor are they self priming remember?

08LSV
09-02-2011, 03:29 PM
Yes, you can T-Off the infill pump but how would you get the water back out of the bag? Aerator pumps are not reversible nor are they self priming remember?

I was just picturing you wrestling that bag over the side to drain without it or you falling in.... It's pretty fun inside my head sometimes.

bergermaister
09-02-2011, 03:31 PM
yeah, you got the aerator pump crowd with that one. Could split off a fill but no joy on a drain pump. Priming in that setup would be a no-go.
I keep a handheld T-1200 tucked away for the extra bags that don't have a permanent home.

In the end we all have our personal preferences and just make it work for our tolerance levels and what we want to do!

(my ballast is 2min FASTER than your ballast - nya nya nya! - but who really cares?!) :)

Canuckle Head
09-02-2011, 03:41 PM
yeah, you got the aerator pump crowd with that one. Could split off a fill but no joy on a drain pump. Priming in that setup would be a no-go.
I keep a handheld T-1200 tucked away for the extra bags that don't have a permanent home.

In the end we all have our personal preferences and just make it work for our tolerance levels and what we want to do!

(my ballast is 2min FASTER than your ballast - nya nya nya! - but who really cares?!) :)

Too true! I am not really advocating for or against really. The reason I went with reversible was because of how limited you are for space in the OBV and I wasn't so much concerned about the price rather than having a system that performed well for my needs.

And as far as fill times go, heck there are boats out there that can be slammed full of ballast in something silly like 30-60 seconds!