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New Guy
12-10-2011, 10:31 AM
Hey Guys I have an 02 LSV and I was wondering if anybody has stuffed 2- 10 L5's under the helm. I am really considering it but I know it is going to be really tight. Would I be better off going with a 12 ported or 2 tens sealed. The only reason I am leaning towards the tens is because I have one already. Thanks.

EarmarkMarine
12-10-2011, 12:15 PM
New Guy,
When deciding which subwoofer is ideal for your boat always start with the external enclosure displacement first and go by the numbers. You can back out the materials, woofer displacement and port volume easy enough. In an open field boat the woofer surface area will greatly determine the maximum peak output. But past a certain point it is the enclosure that will mostly determine the deeper bass extension. Too much woofer in too small of an enclosure will result in more upper bass output but a premature reduction in deep bass.
There are other considerations also.
Your amplifier sub channel delivers alot more power into 2-ohms versus 4-ohms so look at the combination and final net load of the woofer(s).
Two 10s are more surface area than a single 12 but dual 10s are more moving mass to drive and control. A good match in thermal power handling is important but a good match for command is a factor as well.
The required displacement for two sealed 10s and a single sealed 12 will be similar. I would prefer a single 12 in a bass-reflex enclosure over dual 10s sealed in an open boat. The single driver bass-reflex will be more responsive and produce more output in the region of the bass that matters most. However, the leap to bass-reflex requires a big jump in enclosure displacement given the added port volume.
The relationship between sealed and bass-reflex is not the same for all woofers.
All the above and sometimes alot more must be part of the equation. Get with Phil from Kicker and see if he can put you in touch with an experienced Kicker dealer in your geo area. A good dealer will automatically take all this into account along with your particular boat and your personal preferences.

David
Earmark Marine

ian ashton
12-10-2011, 12:29 PM
I have 1 10" L7 under the drivers dash in my Outback (and a second behind the observer seat), Im going to re-build and put both under the drivers side, but I haven't done it yet.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk

NCSUmoomba
12-10-2011, 01:47 PM
I am curious about the benefit of multiple subwoofers. I have one 10" Infinity Perfect in a sealed 0.6 cubic foot box, with about 275 or so watts RMS running to it. I can't imagine having much more bass that that. It hits pretty hard, is quite loud, vibrates everything, and will "boil" the water outside up against the hull. I find myself having to turn it down frequently because it can become too much, and, well, my fiance gets pissed too.

So I am asking the stereo expert guys like Phil and David and Brian how much having more can affect? If I have one amplified sub that plays at a certain loudess (just going to throw a number out here, say 100 db) if I double that to two subs I definitely don't have 200 db, so what is the benefit?

EarmarkMarine
12-10-2011, 02:18 PM
Brian,
If you double your 'amplified' sub you will pick up another 6 dB of output. 10 dB would be percieved as twice the volume so you would be a healthy increment of that.
Two subwoofers in separate locations will not sum as efficiently as a symmetrical and compound arrangement in a single location.
If you want to be "that guy" that when tied up can dominate several rows to the side and severals rows behind or you want the bass to extend out of the cockpit and beyond the transom to support the tower speakers at distance then you need much more subwoofer and subwoofer power.
However, you can overdrive the inboat coaxials with too much bass if the in-boat listening is your primary focus. You will find that when listening to a subwoofer all by itself it will sound soggy and muddy with little to no bass discrimination (everyone should try this once). Add the coaxials and you will discover the pitch accuracy and tonal definition return to the bass. For musical sounding bass you need a precise balance between the fundamentals and upper harmonics. Pushing the subwoofer makes it sound remote or detached. It lessens the musical plausibility.
It depends on your personal 'taste for bass', usage and music. Is it for dance, Hip Hop, a party boat, getting noticed and the like? Then you absolutely need more bass.
Even if your taste runs a little more conservative I think clean bass is never hearing the limitations of your subwoofer or the power driving it. So personally, I always like extra in reserve because I have zero tolerance for over-driving equipment and the tonal aberrations that it introduces.
Because I am so picky about the bass accuracy some of the best and most integrated systems I've heard used a 10-inch subwoofer or a larger subwoofer with larger 7.7-inch inboat coaxials.
You just cannot impose your personal preferences on others. You have to be tolerant of others expectations. Its truly different sizes for different folks.

David
Earmark Marine

NCSUmoomba
12-11-2011, 09:17 AM
David,

That is quite interesting. So a 10dB increase will sound like twice the volume. Okay, got it. And so each additional sub will add about 6dB. So I guess this is why the guys in the SPL challenges have so many speakers. It seems like the point of diminishing return can approach quite quickly, especially from a financial aspect.

It is also interesting, as you mentioned, to hear the speakers separately. It takes a while to get used to tuning an system with the frequency's separated. Nothing really sounds "right" until I have all the speakers playing, but then it is harder for me to hear the distortion with them all playing. Most people who haven't heard this before are quick to comment how bad it sounds until it is all brought together. I re-tune mine every year at the beginning of the season, and it drives my finace crazy. I get the constant, "Are you done yet?" comments!

I agree about having the clean bass. When I bought my boat, it had a JL MicroSub in it being run off a Hart Pro amp that had been turned all the way up and was running about 280W RMS to that little 8" sub. I was surpised that little sub survived. When turned up, it looked like it wanted to jump out of the basket, and it did not sound good. At low volumes, it was great, but it was just too small of a speaker for a boat, hence the upgrade to the 10" speaker.

The JL 7.7s sound great. I am amazed at how much mid-bass punch they have. My buddies X2 has them, and at first listen, it sounds like the boat may have a small sub in it. But once you look at the poor speakers and see how hard they are working, you can figure out why the boat sounds like that. Are there other manufactuers make the oversized diameter coaxials?

I guess the other thing that is frustrating for me is how the amount of bass varies from one type of music to the next. I wish my sub amp had a remote gain control to adjust it as I need it, but it only has one of those remote "bass boost" things, that I guess just adjusts the frequency at which the music is "boosted"? The result is similar to the remote gain, but not quite. How do those things work?

While i'm on a roll with questions here, what ever happened to electronic crossovers? I had one in my car back in the mid 90s, and I thought is was a pretty neat piece of equipment.

Anyway, sorry to hijack the thread and bombard you with all these questions. It is great to have your expertise as a resource on this forum. Thanks.

EarmarkMarine
12-11-2011, 12:59 PM
Brian,
Yes, 6 dB if you double the speaker AND power. And yes, the diminishing return comment is accurate especially with a limited voltage supply. SPL challenges are for short bursts only and the serious SPL vehicles would not make it as a daily driver when used that way.

MicroSub...Nice little sub in its day. A bass-reflex has a steep rolloff below the tuning frequency and a smaller 8-inch would obviously be tuned a little higher. So the crossover frequency would need to be at least an octave higher than the tuning frequency in order to avoid a narrow and peaky response. It was probably crossed over too low and gained too hot. Plus a small bass-reflex sub really requires a subsonic filter to protect it below the tuning frequency where it acoustically unloads. That is another reason why you saw all the extra and wasted excursion.

Later on the other questions.
David
Earmark Marine

EarmarkMarine
12-11-2011, 01:39 PM
Brian,
Continuing...
JL Audio makes 7.7" coaxials and separate components. Rockford Fosgate has 8" marine coaxials. Of course they aren't going to fit everything. But when we've been able to use the larger 7.7"s with larger subs like 12s or 15s the seemless integration and bass quality was fantastic! Also, the second you add a subwoofer and highpass the coaxials, thereby limiting the speaker excursion and narrowng the amplifier bandwidth, the midrange clarity is dramatically improved.

JL Audio has a line driver/controller that works great as a linear bass level control. The added voltage is a nice byproduct too. Its perfect for when some or all the electronics are on the passenger side because it does not extend the signal path. If either the HU or the amplifiers are on the drivers side then a PAC LC-1 is useful as a bass level control.

Separate external electronic crossovers are still readily available but not as popular since amplifiers starting including that circuitry in everything.

David
Earmark Marine

bergermaister
12-11-2011, 09:34 PM
Curious about this as well since I have a spare twin to my sub sitting on a shelf collecting dust.

So if you build a single box to house 2 subs how do you figure out the size/volume requirement? I am currently running a 12" Polk in a sealed box. Some songs give too much bass, others I'm looking for more. In the end I'd rather have more than less. I have a ton of room under my helm - enough I believe that I could build a bigger sealed box and have both subs in it - most likely one facing up, the other facing back. For example if each sub suggests .75 cu ft for a sealed box then would I be looking at building a 1.5cu ft box? Running them parallel for a 2ohm load I'm confident I have plenty of power off my sub amp still. Just wondering if it would be worth it I guess.

MLA
12-11-2011, 10:32 PM
Curious about this as well since I have a spare twin to my sub sitting on a shelf collecting dust.

So if you build a single box to house 2 subs how do you figure out the size/volume requirement? I am currently running a 12" Polk in a sealed box. Some songs give too much bass, others I'm looking for more. In the end I'd rather have more than less. I have a ton of room under my helm - enough I believe that I could build a bigger sealed box and have both subs in it - most likely one facing up, the other facing back. For example if each sub suggests .75 cu ft for a sealed box then would I be looking at building a 1.5cu ft box? Running them parallel for a 2ohm load I'm confident I have plenty of power off my sub amp still. Just wondering if it would be worth it I guess.

Simply building a ported enclosure for the current sub would greatly increase its output without the need for increased amplification. Just retune.

newty
12-12-2011, 09:27 AM
Curious about this as well since I have a spare twin to my sub sitting on a shelf collecting dust.

So if you build a single box to house 2 subs how do you figure out the size/volume requirement? I am currently running a 12" Polk in a sealed box. Some songs give too much bass, others I'm looking for more. In the end I'd rather have more than less. I have a ton of room under my helm - enough I believe that I could build a bigger sealed box and have both subs in it - most likely one facing up, the other facing back. For example if each sub suggests .75 cu ft for a sealed box then would I be looking at building a 1.5cu ft box? Running them parallel for a 2ohm load I'm confident I have plenty of power off my sub amp still. Just wondering if it would be worth it I guess.

You have enough room for a family of immigrants under your dash, throw that second sub under there! We can throw a box together in a hurry. Are they the same subs?

New Guy
12-12-2011, 12:44 PM
I think that I am going to tackle this after the holidays. It should be interesting.

newty
12-12-2011, 02:21 PM
I think that I am going to tackle this after the holidays. It should be interesting.

Your going to be hard pressed to get 2 L-5's under the helm in there. I was waiting to see how Ian got his done. Maybe you can borrow his shoehorn and vaseline when hes done. lol

Jet
12-12-2011, 02:42 PM
This brings up my question which I think David was touching on?? I dont like the normal junk bass or trunk bass you hear in the car rolling with 22"s on it. I like a PUNCH or a hard shorter tone?? Am I saying that right? I dont like the LONG sounding bass. I like the shorter hard punch?? and...how do you achieve that sound? Jet

bergermaister
12-12-2011, 04:12 PM
I bought a prebuilt ported bass box at first and it was HUGE - way too big to even attempt. I went with a custom made sealed box because I didn't want that 'rollin in da hood' kind of bass either...

http://www.crutchfield.com/learn/learningcenter/car/subwoofers_enclosures.html

Oh ya Newty - they are identical Polk MM2124 12's. But looking at their specs now it says minimum impedance 3.3ohms....

http://www.polkaudio.com/caraudio/specs/recent/mm2124/

So maybe I CAN'T split my mono amp to run 2 of them at 2ohms.

EarmarkMarine
12-12-2011, 05:09 PM
Jet,
We call that car with wire 22"s, two 18" subs and two bullet tweeters a Donk. And, we hear that hungover bass all the time.
That slooow bass has far less to do with the woofer size or individual woofer speed.
There are SPL woofers versus SQ woofers.
There are enclosures that are specifically designed to emphasize a single note and create more peak output...versus an enclosure alignment that is well-damped and intended to be linear (smooth response). You generally will not find pre-built SQ enclosures.
So system design and component selection plays a major role. System execution and tuning are major factors as well.
Its funny in that the Donk crowd is just as dissatisfied with a musical sounding subwoofer as you are with an indiscriminant sounding subwoofer.

David
Earmark Marine

New Guy
12-29-2011, 05:09 PM
Ok guys I have been thinking about this alot and the big question is I am currently running a 750.5 kicker that is putting out 410rms to the sub channel at 2ohm. I don't know if I really want to try and sell my amp and get two new amps. I have been considering stepping up to a 12 or 15 running that rms wattage. Am I going to see a lager enough output change over my one ten sealed? should I port my ten and call it a day?

MLA
12-29-2011, 06:06 PM
New Guy,

The Kicker 700.5's 420 watts @ 2 Ohm is respectable power for a 10 or 12 in sub. You should have no trouble finding a 12 that will work in either a sealed or ported that will be a good match for that amp. If you want to stay in the kicker lineup, take a look at the 2011 L3 12". But since you already have a 10 L5, im not sure that you will really have a seat of the pants improvement going from a square 10 to a square 12 with the same amp wattage. Now going from a sealed 10 to a ported 12, I think you would see some difference.

bergermaister
12-29-2011, 06:10 PM
<< Start Hi-Jack>>
Hey MLA - You seem like a pretty sharp audio guy. If you build a single sealed box to house 2 subs how do you figure out the size/volume requirement?
<< End Hi-Jack>>

MLA
12-29-2011, 06:14 PM
In the neighborhood of double the volume needed for a single sub enclosure. Sealed boxes are so forgiving.

EarmarkMarine
12-29-2011, 07:04 PM
New Guy,
Here is a table I use to estimate the output differences as you step up in the size of woofer and from sealed to bass-reflex enclosures. This will be based on the same series of woofer and may be a little different from brand to brand or series to series. But you'll get the basic concept.

10-inch sealed 1.04 cu.ft. ext. encl. Output of 84 dB 1w/!m. Half power @ 47 Hz.
12-inch sealed 1.86 cu.ft. ext. encl. Output of 86 dB 1w/1m. Half power @ 41 Hz.
10-inch bass-reflex 1.65 cu.ft. ext. encl. Output of 87 db 1w/1m. Half power @ 38 Hz.
12-inch bass-reflex 2.72 cu ft. ext. encl. Output of 89 db 1w/1m. Half power @ 33 Hz.
---- and so on ----
The enclosure displacement is figured as external so you can immediately determine if you have the space with legroom, etc. for the particular sub package.
As you can see from the table past a point the enclosure has a profound impact on the deep bass extension. A bass-reflex 10 may have more low bass contribution than an optimized sealed 12 enclosure. You definitely do not want to place a larger woofer in an undersized enclosure.
To put this in perspective a difference of +3 db is the equivalent of doubling your amplifier power. So going from a sealed 10 to a bass-reflex 12 is almost four times the power. Plus the difference in deep bass extension is dramatic.

As for amplifier power you just need to have a good match between the subwoofer and amplifier. In an open field boat environment power doesn't go nearly as far as it would in a vehicle so as a general rule its not a bad idea for your amplifier power to be right at the upper end of the woofer's thermal or continuous capacity. Overmatching either your subwoofer or amplifier is a mistake. Balance is important.

There are other considerations and always exceptions but this simple and general table should serve you well.
Start with the available space for your enclosure, or what you are willing to sacrifice. The boat will determine the maximum enclosure external displacement which will in turn determine the best enclosure loading type and best size of woofer. In a sense this places the horse before the cart.

David
Earmark Marine

New Guy
12-30-2011, 10:57 AM
Thanks David there is a ton of great info in that post.