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usaski1
01-31-2012, 11:31 PM
What is the purpose if the sprinkler valve? Is it just to prevent passive filling and empting of the bag (s)? I have a Outback (G1) and thinking of just ripping out the factory sprinkler valve in favor of.... a vented loop? Am I on the right track here? Whats the best way to convert the strainer to 3/4 inch if I just rip out the valve all together?

kaneboats
02-01-2012, 09:09 AM
In theory the sprinkler valve prevents passive filling and gives the driver control of when to fill from the helm. There are lots of guys who have gone over to vented loops. Look for samples at wakemakers.com. You can call those guys and they will tell you exactly what you need for your model/upgrade/whatever.

usaski1
02-01-2012, 12:17 PM
While Im all about supporting wakemakers, can I get a vented loop anywhere? Can I make my own? I wanna get this done by this weekend... would it be as simple as creating a pipe fitting that just had a hole at the top of an arch?

lsvboombox
02-01-2012, 01:21 PM
While Im all about supporting wakemakers, can I get a vented loop anywhere? Can I make my own? I wanna get this done by this weekend... would it be as simple as creating a pipe fitting that just had a hole at the top of an arch?

you could but it would pee water out as it fills.. if you dont mind all the extra water in your boat you could just loop the hose and poke a hole in it at the top of the loop... the whole idea is to be able to break the siphon so your bags dont empty

you may try a local boating shop as they could have one..

lsvboombox
02-01-2012, 01:27 PM
this guy made his own loop vents

http://www.moomba.com/msgboard/showthread.php?12664-Another-ballast-project-on-a-budget

usaski1
02-01-2012, 03:19 PM
While Im mucking around with my ballast system.. do I need that strainer? I think many have removed their strainers... And it comes after the rule pump, so I guess its not protecting the pump, just keeping junk from the solonoid, which Im going to remove, so dont need, right?

kaneboats
02-01-2012, 03:39 PM
That's the first thing I got rid of to make room for my larger, 2 inlet manifold. You have to assume that if you are filling the boat is in fairly deep water, right? A little dirt doesn't hurt anything and the strainer probably restricts the flow and wastes precious time on the water.

NCSUmoomba
02-01-2012, 03:57 PM
Although on your Outback it doesn't apply, the sprinkler valves are so one has the option of filling more than one bag independently of another off of a single pump.

West Marine sells the vented loops, they are a bit pricey.

My Outback did not come with a ballast pump strainer, so I think they are not really necessary, unless the water is junky.

Also, the vented loop is so the bag won't fill and drain by itself, which can be accomplished with a valve almost as easily, maybe more easily on a Outback. It will just have to be flipped open to fill and then closed once the bag is filled. The vented loops need to be mounted as high as they can go, at least higher than the top of the bag, and Outbacks are obviously not very deep to being with, so that may be a challenge?

rdlangston13
02-01-2012, 05:01 PM
so how exactly does the vented loop work??

usaski1
02-01-2012, 09:03 PM
rdlangston13
so how exactly does the vented loop work??
*****************

Well... A vented loop works by preventing siphoning and pressure. Your ballast bag fills or empties automaticaly by a pressure vaccume difference. By placing a air vent in the line, the pressure can't build, and the bag wont fill or empty on its own. This loop has to be abve the water line for pressure differences to work. Therein lies the problem with an Outback with a bag on the floor. I'm not sure I can get the Vented Loop above the 750 bag in the back. I could run a load of tubing up to the front bow area, and put it under one of the seats, but then Im going to have issues with hose length and pump effecency.

rdlangston13
02-02-2012, 03:09 AM
wont forward momentum of the boat create a pressure difference and move water passed the vented loop much like the priming procedure? i would think this would cause unwanted fill while underway

usaski1
02-02-2012, 03:22 PM
As far as filling while underway, from what I have read, it is the combination of pressure of the water, and the vaccum that fills the bag (someone step in here, im getting over my head!) the water pressure alone isn't great enough to get into the bag. None the less, I think I'm scrappin the vented loop, because of how difficult it 's going to be to get the loop above the bag. so I think Im just going to have a manual valve that flip when I need to fill the bag. I'd love to re-run the tubing up to the drivers seat, but I think I won't due to pump efficiency issues.

usaski1
02-02-2012, 03:33 PM
from wakemakers....

*****
Whether you’re designing a new ballast system, or trying to upgrade your existing system to fill and drain faster, one common question is how best to design the system so it is as uncomplicated (and also inexpensive) as possible. One of the tools that we use when helping people design a custom ballast system is a product called a vented loop.

As shown above, a vented loop is a “U” shaped plastic fitting that is installed in series with the fill pump when using aerator pumps. During filling, the vented loop is invisible, functioning as a section of hose without any limitations. The beauty of the vented loop only comes into play when the the fill pump is turned off, which means there are no drawbacks to implementing its use. When water is not being forced through the fill hose, air (but not water) is allowed to pass through a vent at the top of the loop, which allows the column of water from the vented loop to the fill pump to drain down to the level of the pump.

It is this column of air (typically at least two feet long) that prevents water from siphoning into, or out of the ballast bag when the pump is not running. Many people are under the impression that water is forced past the fill pump due to the boat running at speed, but it’s not possible to develop that much pressure, and it actually just the siphoning process that allows the bag to fill or drain. The vented loop solves that problem by creating a break in the column of water running from the pump to the bag, so siphoning is not possible.

To function correctly, the vented loop needs to be installed close to the ballast bag in question, and as high above the water line as possible. For forward ballast bags, the typical installation location is under the driver’s dash up near the windshield.

bergermaister
02-02-2012, 03:54 PM
I debated on this but put in vented loops on all 3 bags in my upgrade. Newty helped me figure out placement to get them as high as possible above the bags. That ended up being at the front of the rear compartment up as high as possible in the gunnel that runs across side to side. Mine are about level with the top/vent of the loop right at the same height as the top of the bag. One for my front/basement sac is mounted up under the helm. After a full season (last summer) I haven't had any siphoning effect problems at all. I take that back - once I did but unscrewed the top vent of that side's loop, cleaned the duck bill valve, reassembled and problem was gone within minutes. I guess that is a testimonial on them doing exactly what they're designed for. No issues with filling underway either.

I have about a 2-3ft run of hose from the fill pump to the vented loop, then another 4-5 feet from the loop to the fill port on the bag.

kaneboats
02-02-2012, 04:39 PM
You can also use an inline check valve. It will keep the bag from draining but won't do much about auto-filling. But, if you have the mushroom type intakes I understand that the auto filling is not a real issue. It's only the strainer one that catches water and forces it up into the pump that causes the problem.

rdlangston13
02-02-2012, 10:17 PM
so i could add two thru hulls, two more aerator pumps, vented loops, and increase my fill times and eliminate the sprinkler valves? when have the vented loops do you still need to prime by being underway?

rdlangston13
02-02-2012, 10:52 PM
so i could add two thru hulls, two more aerator pumps, vented loops, and increase my fill times and eliminate the sprinkler valves? when have the vented loops do you still need to prime by being underway?

bergermaister
02-02-2012, 11:50 PM
when have the vented loops do you still need to prime by being underway?

Not as long as the aerator pumps are mounted low enough inside that they are under the water line (which is pretty easy to accomplish). Not sure if that scoop type pickup has any effect or not - I don't have one so couldn't say.

usaski1
02-04-2012, 05:07 PM
Well, got pretty far in my project today. (thats what weekends are good for!) Installed my manual valve at the bag. Then cut out the strainer and solonoid in the motor compartment. Then ran into a small snag. The output of the pump is 1 inch ID it looks like, where it goes into the strainer, and then exits the strainer to 3/4 inch. So now I have to go back to Home Depot to see if I can find a conversion coupling from 1 inch to 3/4 inch. knowing now the output is 1 inch, I could just repace all tubing with 1 inch, but it gets converted to 3/4 right at the bag, so no real gain there. Im assuming their are 3/4 inch Inside diamater, to 1 inch inside diamater couplings for black tubing?

bergermaister
02-05-2012, 11:29 AM
http://www.wakemakers.com/1-inch-3-4-inch-hose-barb-coupler.html

If you can't find locally.

kaneboats
02-06-2012, 07:33 AM
I hate Home Depot. I can't find anything in there. It's a little closer than Lowes so I end up stopping there first. I should learn to just drive right by-- keep going. It's so much more organized and better lit at Lowes. I picked up a check valve for my front bag vent project. We'll see how that goes.

bergermaister
02-06-2012, 08:29 AM
I hate Home Depot. I can't find anything in there. It's a little closer than Lowes so I end up stopping there first. I should learn to just drive right by-- keep going. It's so much more organized and better lit at Lowes. I picked up a check valve for my front bag vent project. We'll see how that goes.

Man second that all the way! I say the exact same thing every time I stop in HD to give them another try. Always walk away frustrated.

usaski1
02-06-2012, 09:36 PM
Got 'er all fixed up, but it was raining here in central texas (not complaining!) so I didnt get to really test it out at speed. I did test in my slip though. Converted 1 inch fitting to 3/4 fitting by way of 3 parts, one a galvanised fitting. Hooked it all up, and works as planed. Flip the swith, water flows into the bag, unobstructed. Flip the valve, no water runs in bag. Much simpler now, no strainer, no solonoid. Total cost, about $25, and 2 trips to HD. What to do with the 12v wires for the solonoid down there? Cut em short an tape them up in assuming.. I can't really see or get to where they are going.

viking
02-06-2012, 09:45 PM
how bout pictures of where you installed the vented loop?

usaski1
02-07-2012, 11:10 PM
EH... didn't put a vented loop in it but I could at any time and scrap the manual valve. I didn't do the vented loop because it was questionable weather it would work in an Outback, and I also would have had to order it... and it was more expensive... so yeah, a manual system kinda sucks, but its simple and wont fail on me. Unlike the damn solonoid that failed on me last summer on my only trip to the lake.

NCSUmoomba
02-08-2012, 10:56 AM
Manual valves are the way to go. Its the new trendy thing! Everybody's doing it! Only boats with touch screen displays use that crazy expensive technology like vented loops and reversible pumps! Crazy people!

kaneboats
02-08-2012, 11:15 AM
Manual valve-- nah! Just throw the pump over the side and fill.

usaski1
02-08-2012, 03:31 PM
Kane, I did that for 8 years with my old closed bow. when the system isn't plumbed into the boat, you don't use it. (not sure if you were being funny here)
Yeah, all the cool boats have manual valves, there retro!

kaneboats
02-08-2012, 04:38 PM
People like me have to keep trying all the time to be funny every now and then. My wife agreed to get a new boat only if we didn't have to have ballast bags all over the floor and pumps and wires hanging over the side. Little did she know what she was getting into.