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rca
08-23-2012, 02:01 PM
OK,

I'm ready to get rolling on a stereo upgrade for our 2011 LSV. I've got the factory Kicker system in it right now and will be adding 4 Exile SXT speakers to the tower powered by a Harpoon amp. I'll also be adding a 2nd battery, charger and ACR and switch. A couple of pictures of the existing setup. Please comment on anything you see that you'd change or needs to be reworked or added.

I haven't pulled everything to check yet, but I'm assuming the 30 amp fuse is for the Kicker amp and the 50 amp breaker is for the main power. Existing setup:

http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g348/nsdhusband/LSV%20Stereo%20Upgrade/IMG_1435_sm.jpg

http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g348/nsdhusband/LSV%20Stereo%20Upgrade/IMG_1436_sm.jpg

Here's what I'm thinking for the new wiring setup. Wire gauge is what I think i have on the existing and what I think I should use for the new. Let me know if you think it's too small or overkill. I know I do not have fusing drawn in yet either. I'd like your thoughts so I get that correct as well.

http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g348/nsdhusband/LSV%20Stereo%20Upgrade/RonAllisonMoombaStereoWiring_cr.jpg

EarmarkMarine
08-23-2012, 02:35 PM
Ron,
That is a very nice job, not only the illustration but the scheme. Nice that you inverted the voltage sensing relay and switch in relation to the batteries.
I do question layering the HU and EQ light duty 16-gauge ring connectors over a 3/8" Blue Sea post. Instead I would use a stepdown barrier strip off the distribution blocks, combine those two and run a small in-line fuse at the barrier strip power source. I would do the same thing on the ground side less the fuse.

David
Earmark Marine

rdlangston13
08-23-2012, 02:38 PM
If you need a hand installing any of the new hear give me a buzz. I think I even have some 4 conductor 12 gauge wire left from when I did my tower that you can use.


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rca
08-23-2012, 03:08 PM
Ron,
That is a very nice job, not only the illustration but the scheme. Nice that you inverted the voltage sensing relay and switch in relation to the batteries.
I do question layering the HU and EQ light duty 16-gauge ring connectors over a 3/8" Blue Sea post. Instead I would use a stepdown barrier strip off the distribution blocks, combine those two and run a small in-line fuse at the barrier strip power source. I would do the same thing on the ground side less the fuse.

David
Earmark Marine

Thanks David. I thought there might be a better way to do the small gauge stuff. I'll check that out.

I think I got the idea on the switch and ACR placement from reading your suggestion on it in an earlier post.

rca
08-23-2012, 03:09 PM
If you need a hand installing any of the new hear give me a buzz. I think I even have some 4 conductor 12 gauge wire left from when I did my tower that you can use.


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Thanks David, I'll let you know when I get ready.

jmvotto
08-23-2012, 03:50 PM
change the kicker 200 to something beefier to power your six cabins, you will lose them with the harpoon.

Great diagram BTW i will snap a pic of mine with the harpoon, and the kicker 700.5 with the wiring this weekend.

only difference i did not add the blue seas acr, Yet?

mmandley
08-23-2012, 05:55 PM
Looks real nice Ron, I do how ever not agree with running your Distro block to the Blue Sea switch.

I would run the Distro block power right to your Second Battery. Everything else looks pretty squared away.
I also agree with changing out the 200.4 amp as its a bit under powered for your cabins, the nice caviate though is the 4 SXTs on the tower is going to make up for a lot of the cabin thats lacking. In time you will fine yourself wanting to upgrade the cabin amp and possibly the speakers

rca
08-23-2012, 06:10 PM
I figured we would be doing some upgrading eventually. That's why I'm trying to get it right the first time and get parts that will allow me to expand.

lewisb13
08-23-2012, 06:13 PM
Yeah man I had an MBQuart 600.6 amp that I used to power 6 polk db651s in my cabin and I didnt think it had enough power, and that was at 100 watts per channel.

rca
08-23-2012, 06:17 PM
So Mike what's the thinking on Distro block straight to the battery vs. the switch? I guess it wouldn't make any difference as far as isolating or combining the batteries and it would remove a piece of equipment from the power loop of the stereo.

MLA
08-23-2012, 06:17 PM
With that particular dual-circuit switch, I would leave the amp's trunk like right where it is. Also, cant ell from the diagram if you have any circuit protection for that amp B+ line.

mmandley
08-23-2012, 08:10 PM
So Mike what's the thinking on Distro block straight to the battery vs. the switch? I guess it wouldn't make any difference as far as isolating or combining the batteries and it would remove a piece of equipment from the power loop of the stereo.

My thinking is a Boat is a Noise maching, theres no true ground to it. I prefer, maybe its just me but i dont like my stereo going threw the isolator, or switching system of any kind. I prefer to run my Distro block straight to my Battery,

Another thread ago there was a concern as to why you even have a Fused distro block when you have a fuse on the main line from the battery to the distro.

This is my thinking on that as well. Take it for what its worth.

I use a 300 AMP fuse on my O guage line from my battery to the Distro. This is enough to pop if the battery becomes shorted but still large enough to allow all my amps to power at 100% demand.

I then have each amp individually fused at my Distro, this protects each amp seperatly from shorting and drawing too puch power directly off my battery bank. It also ensure is a Surge goes past my 300 fuse it pops before it hits my actual Amp fuses. Now my 2500.1 has no amp fuses so this also protects that amp just as if it had its own seperate fuses.

Some may disagree with my redudent fusing theory but for me, i have been doing it like this for my whole stereo life 20+ years now and have never lost an amp, distro, battery or cable to a short. I have lost fuses but never components.

As for the Switching system mine is slightly different because im not running an onboard charger but i have circuit breakers between my Switch and the ACR but that is so i can open loop them and charge both banks off a single digital charger.

rca
08-23-2012, 09:30 PM
As for the Switching system mine is slightly different because im not running an onboard charger but i have circuit breakers between my Switch and the ACR but that is so i can open loop them and charge both banks off a single digital charger.

The reason I have mine setup the way I do is so I can turn the switch to the off position and charge both mine from the single dual bank charger I'll have. With the ACR tied into the switch I don't have to have the breakers to open the circuit, the switch will do it for me.

mmandley
08-23-2012, 09:47 PM
That makes since Ron, I would still prefer my stereo directly to the battery. Your charging is different then mine which is why i wasnt questioning or opting to change that set up.

rca
08-23-2012, 09:59 PM
I do see your point on not connecting the stereo through the switch. I think I could just move my Distro to the battery and keep the charging setup and switch the same. Need to check that when i get home and can check the diagram.

EarmarkMarine
08-23-2012, 10:20 PM
rca,
I totally agree with Mike on his own set-up. If he has that level of amplifier power un-fused the individually fused distribution block isn't considered redundant.
Those using an ACR/VSR without a dual circuit switch or with another type of switch will wire ALL stereo components battery direct. Past a certain point they don't want to wire too large of a system draw through a lighter duty switch with multiple 5/16" posts and additional connectors. Mike feels he has past that threshold.
On your system, even with some future expansion, I would maintain the full and intended functionality of the Blue Sea switch. It's all 3/8" posts and definitely rated to handle serious current. Otherwise why even use the switch.

David
Earmark Marine

rca
08-24-2012, 12:31 AM
David thanks for checking in. I know you have a lot of experience in this area. I think I will stay with my original plan for now. Thanks everyone.

MLA
08-24-2012, 01:41 PM
Mmandley,

I know nothing of your system or how it is used, except the components listed in your sig and the points you have highlighted in your post above. None the less, I do not want to compare your setup to the OP's.

As I stated, with that particular switch, I would keep the house battery on post-2A and the loads on post-2B. Taking the amp feed right to the battery post circumvents the isolation function of this switch. At that point, the only thing terminating to the switch on the house side would be the ACR. This serves little purpose, except when shore charging.

Once the switch is closed, all stereo components will be sharing the same battery B+ reference. If the battery GND's are all connected and completing the circuit to the engine block, then I see the switch having no bearing on the ground circuit.

If the OP was using a traditional 3-post dual battery switch with an ACR, then yes, I would probably take the amp's trunk line right to the house battery B+.

In R.E. to a fused distrobution block: Yes, they can be redundant and not always needed. I am not against using a fused block, but when the math comes up right and the customer is only wanting a basic install, then I do not use one, but opt for a pair of non-fused distrobution blocks. Things that factor in to this are:
1) Are my amps internally fused = These fuses protect the amp and circuit from an internal amp short.
2) What is my total combined load = The main circuit protection needs to be the weakest link. It needs to carry the potential load, but not exceed the capacity of the cabling, and this includes the short runs of 4ga from the block to the amp. The odds of a short occuring on that 18" stretch of 4ga from the block to the amp is slim to none. But, lets say your goofy bro-inlaw tossed the anchor in the locker and it cut through the cables and shorted a 4ga B+ to a 4ga GND. I need to calculate that that run of 4ga will handle the short, thus allowing the main to trip.
3) Distance from battery to amps where the non-fused will be and distance from there to the amp.

So, its not a one-size-fits-all, but in may systems, it can be done without the added fused block. I would much rather see a system with redundant fusing, as opposed to one with a fused distro block next to the amps and a unprotected trunk line. Hope this clears up my point of view.

mmandley
08-24-2012, 02:34 PM
MLA, I wasnt saying anything was wrong with RCA idea, nor yours, i was only saying i wouldnt run it like that.

I use a Switch in my system the same style, says ON OFF and COMBINE. I Run 1 cable from my Stereo Bank to the Switch, and all my stereo runs threw the Distro block and then a single 0 guage line threw a Fuse then to the battery +. My two banks are of course connected threw a Negative cable.

In my experience with the way its set up my ACR is able to do its job, i have both banks isolated.

My stereo bank can go dead, the Starter bank stays charged, or vis versa.

My ACR charges the starter bank till its at X voltage then switches to the Stereo bank and charges it.

I am not trying to say what you or Dave is doing or saying is wrong, not at all. I was only saying in my experience and my preferance is that i dont hook my Stereo Main cable from the distro block right to that switch. I dont like adding that into my Stereo Leg. I want my power for the stereo leg comming directly from the battery. 1 less break in my cable from the Battery to the Distro.

In the above diagram the Disto goes to the Switch. This switch is not isolated, its not grounded, its not insulated. its posts, mounted in Plastic, with a rotary switch selecting what you ask for. Its also just a basic metal strip on the switch doing the work.

This is why i prefer to have the stereo main power cable right at the battery. Then i run a cable from the battery to the distro for my stereo bank.

I dont understand why theres even a concern here, the only difference in any of this is i use a second cable and your option is to not. Does it really matter? No i dont think it does, and this is why i plainly stated its my preference, just the way i do it. I am not trying to have Ron do it my way, hes more then pleased to do your way. Its fine with me, i just only offering my thoughts on the subject.

mmandley
08-24-2012, 02:44 PM
Ron, im going to step out of your thread, i hate to see every stereo thread on this forum go south like this one is going. I would be happy to answer your questions, or have someone help you with anything you need. I just dont want to keep having to post up about one persons thoughts versus anothers ones thoughts.

rca
08-24-2012, 11:21 PM
So in the setup as shown, where would you add fuse or circuit breaker protection? Would it be on the 1/0 between the Blue Sea Switch and the + Distribution block, 150 amp? Also on the 6ga connection from the Blue Sea Switch to the Main House Buss, using the 50 amp circuit breaker installed currently?

I am redrawing the diagram with the HU and ZLD connected to a positive and ground strip. I'm adding a fuse between the distribution block and the positive strip. Any thoughts on fuse size for the HU and the ZLD?

Brianinpdx
08-24-2012, 11:48 PM
Ron - ZLD has a inline fuse that comes with it. 1A

Razzman
08-25-2012, 01:37 AM
RCA;

so to step into this thread and donate some revelent info, It will work either way whether connected to the stereo bank or the switch. Done right it will offer clean power without noise or issue. Why do I know this you ask? Because my power to the distro is pulled from the Blue Seas switch B post via 1/0 to the distro block and it works just fine powering a Harpoon, 1500.1 & 800.4. BUT, and I say BUT as it's not perfect thanks to some "expert advise" which we'll leave at that on wiring up a Blue Seas ACR with an onboard charger. I'm forced to redo some of my wiring and routing due to this so take it for what's it's worth, let's just say clarity in an explanation you can understand goes a long way! Do it your way, but connecting to the stereo bank is a tried and true method regardless.

MLA
08-25-2012, 09:31 AM
So in the setup as shown, where would you add fuse or circuit breaker protection? Would it be on the 1/0 between the Blue Sea Switch and the + Distribution block, 150 amp? Also on the 6ga connection from the Blue Sea Switch to the Main House Buss, using the 50 amp circuit breaker installed currently?

I am redrawing the diagram with the HU and ZLD connected to a positive and ground strip. I'm adding a fuse between the distribution block and the positive strip. Any thoughts on fuse size for the HU and the ZLD?

Ron,

The circuit protection for the amps main B+ needs to be right the source. Within 18" is the norm.

Although the ZLD has an in-line fuse AT the ZLD, this fuse is there to protect the circuit if the ZLD itself has an internal short. It will to nothing to protect the 20ft of 14ga positive wire thats running around the bow of the boat from the battery to the helm where the ZLD is mounted.

rca
08-25-2012, 10:20 AM
So how does this look?

http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g348/nsdhusband/LSV%20Stereo%20Upgrade/MoombaStereoWiringv2_cr.png

EarmarkMarine
08-25-2012, 12:43 PM
That looks good. Again, personally I wouldn't circumvent the functionality of the dual circuit switch related to the amplifier draw yet leave the switch intact relating to the alternator and starter feed circuit? How does the capacity and resistance of the switch become an issue as compared to the contacts in the ACR? All that defies logic. So I would go with it as you have it.

David

moombadaze
08-26-2012, 09:02 AM
what is a blue sea ACR, and what does it do for you ?

MLA
08-26-2012, 11:00 AM
what is a blue sea ACR, and what does it do for you ?

An ACR (Auto Combining Relay) allows your house (stereo) battery bank and main starting battery bank to both receive a charge from the alternator while the engine is running. When the engine is off, it isolates, or disconnects, both banks from each other so your house/stereo loads only draw from the house battery bank. This is done automatically.

moombadaze
08-26-2012, 12:57 PM
thanks for explanation in simple terms that i could understand.

beat taco
08-26-2012, 02:30 PM
I'm no expert but I think your acr needs to be connected to the batteries!
15880

beat taco
08-26-2012, 03:01 PM
Here's a better shot of mine. One to each battery. The terminals are labeled A and B. A is to the start, B to house battery. You can see the yellow wire in the pic. I have that hooked to the starter solenoid where it says in Al's thread but have never hooked it up to the ACR. Too busy enjoying out short season to mess with it and it's working fine.
15881

beat taco
08-26-2012, 03:31 PM
Or I learned something new today!

MLA
08-26-2012, 06:13 PM
I'm no expert but I think your acr needs to be connected to the batteries!
15880

It will be when the switch is in the ON position as it will be when the engine is running. With the way its currently configured in the OP's diagram, the ACR will not see the charge from the on-board charger and combine. This allows the charger to charge and condition the batteries independently. If the ACR is connected directly to the batteries, it will combine them once the charger is plugged in. Now they become one battery.

If no charger is being used, then yes, you would connect the ACR directly to the batteries.

rdlangston13
08-26-2012, 06:40 PM
So what is the advantage of hooking the amp power to the ACR vs straight on the house battery?

rca
08-26-2012, 06:53 PM
They way I have it drawn the power from the amp goes to the Blue Sea Switch. It gives me the ability to move the switch to the off position and that basically disconnects the batteries from the amps and the house loads. It also disconnects the ACR from the batteries. That means the Promarine charger will see each battery (or battery bank) individually and charge them correctly. If the ACR wasn't disconnected it would combine the charge from the Promarine to the batteries and not charger properly, since it is a dual bank charger.

That's what I understand anyway. Hope it's clear as mud.

rca
08-26-2012, 06:57 PM
Maybe an explanation of the Blue Sea Switch too. The Switch has 3 modes. Off, On and Combined. Off is basically that. On each set of poles is switched on. Combined the battery banks are combined. Here's a picture of the modes.

http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g348/nsdhusband/LSV%20Stereo%20Upgrade/BlueSeaSwitchModes.gif

MLA
08-26-2012, 07:05 PM
So what is the advantage of hooking the amp power to the ACR vs straight on the house battery?

There is no advantage as that's not what the ACR is designed to do. The ACR is only intended to allow the alternator current to be distributed to the house battery when the engine is running. The dual circuit manual switch and the ACR are two different components.

rdlangston13
08-26-2012, 08:25 PM
Ahhh ok, I was looking at his diagram wrong. I thought the stereo power was going to the ACR but it's the dual battery switch.

But still, what advantage does that have over going straight to the batter for the stereo equip?


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MLA
08-26-2012, 08:35 PM
Ahhh ok, I was looking at his diagram wrong. I thought the stereo power was going to the ACR but it's the dual battery switch.

But still, what advantage does that have over going straight to the batter for the stereo equip?


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In this particular application, the switch allows for disconnecting the stereo system from the battery when the boat is stored.

rdlangston13
08-26-2012, 09:34 PM
Is there a reason for doing this?


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EarmarkMarine
08-26-2012, 09:36 PM
The intended role and benefits of ACRs are clear but some aspects of an ACR are not so simple. You have to understand that we deviate a little from the Blue Sea instructions because intially they envisioned a single bank charger to maintain both banks and even stated this fact. The largest anticipated draw at rest was instrumentation like a depthfinder. Blue Sea did not envision this product being used for massive stereos with massive battery banks that are deeply depleted and therefore must be charged/conditioned independently. You will NEVER see an ACR used between a starting battery and a large trolling motor bank because that will exceed the functionality of an ACR. Yet we have placed this device in an application with a similar demand and where its behaviors will change under different circumstances. So in our application an ACR may increase our dependency on AC shore charging and we definitely need isolated shore charging. The 5511e dual circuit switch becomes an essential appendage, not only for isolated shore charging but in some applications it is necessary to manually circumvent the ACR.
We have analyzed every possible scenario in arriving at our recommended wiring scheme. MLA and many others, like Earmark, have independently arrived at the same conclusions.

David
Earmark Marine

rdlangston13
08-26-2012, 10:35 PM
The intended role and benefits of ACRs are clear but some aspects of an ACR are not so simple. You have to understand that we deviate a little from the Blue Sea instructions because intially they envisioned a single bank charger to maintain both banks and even stated this fact. The largest anticipated draw at rest was instrumentation like a depthfinder. Blue Sea did not envision this product being used for massive stereos with massive battery banks that are deeply depleted and therefore must be charged/conditioned independently. You will NEVER see an ACR used between a starting battery and a large trolling motor bank because that will exceed the functionality of an ACR. Yet we have placed this device in an application with a similar demand and where its behaviors will change under different circumstances. So in our application an ACR may increase our dependency on AC shore charging and we definitely need isolated shore charging. The 5511e dual circuit switch becomes an essential appendage, not only for isolated shore charging but in some applications it is necessary to manually circumvent the ACR.
We have analyzed every possible scenario in arriving at our recommended wiring scheme. MLA and many others, like Earmark, have independently arrived at the same conclusions.

David
Earmark Marine

thanks for totally not answering my question

EarmarkMarine
08-26-2012, 11:32 PM
thanks for totally not answering my question

David,
Don't take it personally but I never intended to answer your question. I was just commenting on the general aspects of ACRs.
Since you directed your comment specifically at me here is my answer to your question.
The intentions of the Blue Sea wiring diagram is to disconnect both battery banks from their dedicated circuits while in storage. I think it's a good idea to have a disconnect on any battery during long term storage in case of a parasitic draw. I definitely want the memory circuit disconnected which can deplete a perfectly good battery in less than four weeks. I see no good reason to deviate from the product's instructions on this one.

David
Earmark Marine

rdlangston13
08-26-2012, 11:49 PM
David,
Don't take it personally but I never intended to answer your question. I was just commenting on the general aspects of ACRs.
Since you directed your comment specifically at me here is my answer to your question.
The intentions of the Blue Sea wiring diagram is to disconnect both battery banks from their dedicated circuits while in storage. I think it's a good idea to have a disconnect on any battery during long term storage in case of a parasitic draw. I definitely want the memory circuit disconnected which can deplete a perfectly good battery in less than four weeks. I see no good reason to deviate from the product's instructions on this one.

David
Earmark Marine

Ok I understand the concern about a parasitic drain but if you are using a dedicated shore charger then a small parasitic drain should not have any affect should it?

EarmarkMarine
08-27-2012, 12:11 AM
Ok I understand the concern about a parasitic drain but if you are using a dedicated shore charger then a small parasitic drain should not have any affect should it?

That could be true IF you have an isolated 2-bank charger. Some do not and a charger could fail. For those that keep their boat in a slip, winter storms often cut out power for long periods. Commercial storage facilities may not keep track of this either. Once a battery is drawn down too low and represents too great of a current draw a small charger will go into self protection and halt charging. So it depends on your particular situation. My position is a little different in that I have to prepare a boat for every continguency.

David
Earmark Marine

rdlangston13
08-27-2012, 01:51 AM
Ok cool. Thanks, that does answer my question!


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sybrmike
08-27-2012, 11:04 AM
Ron, not that it's right (I'm no stereo guru) but I wired my SurePower 1314 VSR, parallel circuit battery switch, and dual bank charger as you have shown (stereo only on the second battery). My thinking was like yours in that the batteries need to be completely disconnected and isolated from each other to take advantage of the dual bank charger functionality.

I've only been running a short time since the completing the rebuild, but it all seems to function as intended. I've got the voltmeter in the dash for the main battery and another on the stereo circuit just ahead of the amp dist block. I can see the voltage differential after running the stereo only & hear the relay open once the stereo drops the voltage too low or close when I fire the engine back up to start charging the stereo battery. I'm running two Optima Blues & heard that proper charging maintenance was key to performance, so this just seemed to make sense.

I do remember that things got crowded around the switch lugs with that many heavy ring terminals (but I was working in a pretty confined space).