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chawk610
11-07-2012, 08:16 AM
ok, I plan on doing this possibly this weekend. I have done a seach on here but I really need it "dumbed down". Does anyone have a really simple diagram they could share?

Casey

mmandley
11-07-2012, 08:31 AM
ok, I plan on doing this possibly this weekend. I have done a seach on here but I really need it "dumbed down". Does anyone have a really simple diagram they could share?

Casey

You just adding a second battery? No switch?

Second Battery is simple Positive to positive and Negative to tegative. It will be 1 big 12V battery.

If your using a Switch system post up the one your using.

chawk610
11-07-2012, 08:50 AM
Perko switch... sorry, I thought that was a given.

lewisb13
11-07-2012, 08:53 AM
There's an absolutely amazing drawing in the owners manual. I'll see if I can find it electronically.

lewisb13
11-07-2012, 08:59 AM
Page 63......

There's an even better drawing in the 2013 manual

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCsQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.moomba.com%2Fdownloads%2Fowne r_manuals%2Fmoomba_10.pdf&ei=KGiaUPGtN47SqAGMqoGACg&usg=AFQjCNFfBM7JX0GIiL5sG_ESCYRNpXYY6A

dhyams
11-07-2012, 09:01 AM
In my opinion, this is the best way to do it:

http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=3557

This is how I've done mine and it works great. It costs you about the same amount of money on the Perko, but it's automatic. So you never have to mess with setting "1" "2" or "OFF" manually.

This is the relay that you would want:

http://www.amazon.com/BorgWarner-R3098-Borg-Warner-Relay/dp/B000BZF7FM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1352297003&sr=8-1&keywords=borg+warner+relay

Although you can probably find it cheaper at O'Reilly's or similar place. It was easy to hook up; just follow the drawing in that thread.

chawk610
11-07-2012, 09:15 AM
Hmmm... does the same wiring apply if their is a switch, not a relay?

dhyams
11-07-2012, 09:19 AM
Yes. The only thing that I can think of that would be different is that you do need to run a wire (say a 16 gauge) from the ACC on your ignition (the purple wire) to the relay, so that it will automatically engage the relay when you turn the key.

Basically a relay *is* a switch, it's just controlled by another electrical signal (in this case, the ACC terminal on your key), instead of you having to reach in the battery compartment to do it yourself. Convenient.

And here's a cheaper place to buy the relay:

http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_x_18970096-P_x_x&nAID=11138?cm_mmc=aff-_-cj-_-5605648-_-10711125#utm_source=aff&utm_medium=cj&utm_campaign=5605648&utm_content=10711125

dhyams
11-07-2012, 09:31 AM
And just to clarify what the relay is doing, it is this:

1) it is in the "open" state while your key is in the off position. This means you can run your stereo and whatever else you have hooked up to battery #2, while preserving the charge of battery #1. In "Perko" language, the switch is set to "2".
2) it is in the "closed" state while your key is in the ACC or crank position. This means that whenever you turn your key to crank the boat, both batteries are acting as one big battery. In "Perko" language, the switch is set to "1 and 2".

Has worked great for me. The only negative possibility is that it is theoretically possible to run down batt #2 so far that when the relay closes, there is a significant draw from batt #1 wanting to charge it that you can't crank. Reading the thread mentioned above, I came to the conclusion that the original poster has physically tested this and it doesn't seem to happen. Even in the case that it *does* happen, all it takes is a simple disconnection of the positive end of batt #2 to the relay, and then you are operating only with batt #1 which should be fresh. Trivial to do in the event that this occurs.

parrothd
11-07-2012, 10:53 AM
Return the perko and get a battery isolator, no messing with switches... :)

http://bluewatermarinesvc.com/html/bat_isolator.html

sandm
11-07-2012, 11:48 AM
although i'm not as versed as some of the audio guru's on here(where's mla/earmark and brian)..

I agree 100% with parrot's answer.

MLA
11-07-2012, 03:35 PM
ok, I plan on doing this possibly this weekend. I have done a seach on here but I really need it "dumbed down". Does anyone have a really simple diagram they could share?

Casey

Are you looking to install a house bank or add a second battery in parallel to an existing battery bank? Sounds like you are installing a house bank with a dual battery switch. If so, its fairly straight forward to wire up the switch and new house battery.

1) Move ALL (*) cables from the existing cranking battery's B+ post, EXCEPT the bilge pump B+, and move it to the switch's "C" post.
2) with new cable, connect cranking battery B+ post to the switch post "1"
3) with a new cable, connect the new house battery's B+ post to switch post "2"
4) with a new cable, connect from the existing cranking battery GND post to the new house battery GND post.

OFF = all loads isolated from the batteries
1 = loads pull from cranking battery 1 and alternator charges battery 1 when engine is running
2 = loads pull from house battery 2 and alternator charges battery 2 when engine is running
Both = both batteries are combined to each other, all loads and alternator

Using an ACR or continuous-duty relay only will work, but I prefer to have a manual switch in a boat. The relay setup will not allow you to use the house battery as a backup cranking if needed.

* ALL loads include the entire audio setup.

Hope this helps.

mmandley
11-07-2012, 03:58 PM
Are you looking to install a house bank or add a second battery in parallel to an existing battery bank? Sounds like you are installing a house bank with a dual battery switch. If so, its fairly straight forward to wire up the switch and new house battery.

1) Move ALL (*) cables from the existing cranking battery's B+ post, EXCEPT the bilge pump B+, and move it to the switch's "C" post.
2) with new cable, connect cranking battery B+ post to the switch post "1"
3) with a new cable, connect the new house battery's B+ post to switch post "2"
4) with a new cable, connect from the existing cranking battery GND post to the new house battery GND post.

OFF = all loads isolated from the batteries
1 = loads pull from cranking battery 1 and alternator charges battery 1 when engine is running
2 = loads pull from house battery 2 and alternator charges battery 2 when engine is running
Both = both batteries are combined to each other, all loads and alternator

Using an ACR or continuous-duty relay only will work, but I prefer to have a manual switch in a boat. The relay setup will not allow you to use the house battery as a backup cranking if needed.

* ALL loads include the entire audio setup.

Hope this helps.

My only real concern with this unless im not understanding what your doing it connecting the stereo to the rest of the boat.

If you want a duel battery so you have the stereo on 1 battery and the rest of the boat on the house battery, typically the way most people do it.

I had mine connected by,

Battery 1 is house, + to Pole 1 on switch
Battery 2 is stereo + to Pole 2 on switch

Alternator, starter went to Common connect on the switch.

Ground from battery 1 went to boats ground
Gound from battery 2 went to Battery 1 ground

Factory circuit breaker line for master power went to Battery 1 +
Stereo + and - went to battery 2

This allows you to run your stereo and if it kills the battery you still have a start battery
This also allows you to charge eighter the stereo or house battery, dependent on where your switch is selected.
1 house
2 stereo
3 combines both banks as 1 big battery, also allows charging of all batteries

In this configuration when you switch it to Off it only turns the Boat systems completly off.
Technically you could turn the stereo on still but since the stereo runs off the rocker switch there is no power to it.
But if the stereo shorted it would drain that battery still

<disclaimer im pulling from memory 2 summers ago when i had no ACR>

I personally never connect my Stereo system to the house battery or allow anything from the boat side to ground with my stereo bank. This keeps the noise out.

dhyams
11-07-2012, 03:59 PM
Using an ACR or continuous-duty relay only will work, but I prefer to have a manual switch in a boat. The relay setup will not allow you to use the house battery as a backup cranking if needed.


True, and I guess it's all in the individual's preferences. I very much prefer the relay because of its automatic nature. No switch to flip (having to tell people to get up and move so that I can reach in there and do something), no possibility that you kill your regulator by you (or someone else) flipping the switch to off while the boat is running.

Normal usage scenario is to float, listen to music, and then crank and go. The relay is perfect for this; batt #1 is kept always charged nicely because it's only used for cranking only; everything else is run off of batt #2. In the low-probability
situation where batt #1 (the cranking batt) is dead and batt #2 (house batt) is dead, just get out your wrench and ratchet and move the cables...that gets you going (just saying all is not lost if batt #1 is dead but batt #2 is not).

mmandley
11-07-2012, 04:03 PM
True, and I guess it's all in the individual's preferences. I very much prefer the relay because of its automatic nature. No switch to flip (having to tell people to get up and move so that I can reach in there and do something), no possibility that you kill your regulator by you (or someone else) flipping the switch to off while the boat is running.

Normal usage scenario is to float, listen to music, and then crank and go. The relay is perfect for this; batt #1 is kept always charged nicely because it's only used for cranking only; everything else is run off of batt #2. In the low-probability
situation where batt #1 (the cranking batt) is dead and batt #2 (house batt) is dead, just get out your wrench and ratchet and move the cables...that gets you going (just saying all is not lost if batt #1 is dead but batt #2 is not).

I agree with this.

On my ACR set up i have a switch as well, but its just On Off Combine.
On is the normal setting to make it work as intended
Off is for off season or traveling
Combine allows the system to treat it all as one big battery

I also have circuit breakers on my battery lines and i open them and can connect my charger to 1 battery and it charges all 3. I close the breakers to re-engage the ACR

MLA
11-07-2012, 04:13 PM
True, and I guess it's all in the individual's preferences. I very much prefer the relay because of its automatic nature. No switch to flip (having to tell people to get up and move so that I can reach in there and do something), no possibility that you kill your regulator by you (or someone else) flipping the switch to off while the boat is running.

Normal usage scenario is to float, listen to music, and then crank and go. The relay is perfect for this; batt #1 is kept always charged nicely because it's only used for cranking only; everything else is run off of batt #2. In the low-probability
situation where batt #1 (the cranking batt) is dead and batt #2 (house batt) is dead, just get out your wrench and ratchet and move the cables...that gets you going (just saying all is not lost if batt #1 is dead but batt #2 is not).

In a case like this, we do a dual battery switch with an ACR. 99% of the time, the switch is in the "1" or "ON" position while on the water and "OFF" when parked. The ACR automatically combines the alternator to the house bank when the engine is running and isolates the house from the rest of the system when the engine is off.

MLA
11-07-2012, 04:36 PM
allow anything from the boat side to ground with my stereo bank. This keeps the noise out.

Unless the house bank is 100% stand-alone battery bank, then your stereo and house bank are sharing a common ground plane with the rest of the boat.

The most common source of noise is from when the stereo is not sharing a common B+ battery source. This typically happen in a dual battery system when new gear is added or when a house bank is added, and the existing gear is left on the boats harness.


My only real concern with this unless im not understanding what your doing it connecting the stereo to the rest of the boat

Electrically, there is no issue here are all. Its no different then a every car or truck that runs the roads today. They all have stereos and a single battery.

With all loads connected to the C post of the switch, the stereo is benefiting from the alternator voltage, regardless of which battery you have the switch turned to. When switched to off, the batteries are isolated from the loads in one action.

With the stereo loads connected directly to the house battery with only a dual battery switch (no ACR) you have to run with the switch in the BOTH position, other wise, one of the batteries will not be receiving a charge from the alternator and when dropping anchor, you will still have to move the switch position from BOTH in order to isolate the main cranking from the stereo loads, where is was while running.


This allows you to run your stereo and if it kills the battery you still have a start battery
This also allows you to charge eighter the stereo or house battery, dependent on where your switch is selected.
1 house
2 stereo
3 combines both banks as 1 big battery, also allows charging of all batteries

Function stays the same in both schemes. When listening at anchor, switch over to "2" and the main cranking is now isolated in reserve.

Im not saying your scheme is in any way wrong, just stating how my scheme works and how they are different and in some ways, similar.

mmandley
11-07-2012, 04:47 PM
Im not saying your scheme is in any way wrong, just stating how my scheme works and how they are different and in some ways, similar.

Exactly, i wasnt trying to say your way was wrong eigher, lol.

Much respect for you MLA for all you do on the site man.

MLA
11-07-2012, 05:05 PM
Exactly, i wasnt trying to say your way was wrong eigher, lol.

Much respect for you MLA for all you do on the site man.

Hay, i know you werent, so no worries here!

beat taco
11-08-2012, 11:48 AM
Was the perko switch just purchased? The add a battery setup from blue sea is a great way to go. I put as many accessories as I could, including stereo on my house battery. That leaves my start battery with a light load, I left the blower, nav lights, bilge pump, and interior lights on the start battery but that's it. I also added a blue sea fuse panel to the house battery to easily add accessories.
Not that it's much help but oh we'll:)

chawk610
11-08-2012, 12:33 PM
Oh man... sooooo much info here. I for sure want to keep it as simple as possible. All I have at this point are the batteries.

beat taco
11-08-2012, 01:00 PM
If you go add a battery, search it on eBay, $110.50 shipped, that was the cheapest I could find when I got mine.

chawk610
11-08-2012, 01:11 PM
Ahhh... so the Blue Seas is an on / off set up and the relay controls which battery is in use? Sorry, you guys have to hit me over the head with this stuff. My buddy across the street has no relay, just the perko switch and (2) batteries. I am liking the simplicity in the operation of the on / off only.

beat taco
11-08-2012, 01:29 PM
On, off, and combine if your start battery ever dies. The ACR that comes with it is the automatic charging relay that determines what battery your alternator needs to charge. There's lots of options but for $110 have a nice set up that is easy to install.

beat taco
11-08-2012, 01:33 PM
This gives you one battery for your engine, and one for accessories like your stereo.

MLA
11-08-2012, 05:57 PM
I just want to clarify something in regards to the operation of the ACR. The Blue Sea 7610 ACR does not sense which battery needs charging and distribute to one or the other based on each batteries voltage per say. When the switch is in the on position, terminal A of the ACR is connected to the main cranking bank, and terminal B of the ACR is connected to the house battery bank. The main alternator cable is also connected to the main cranking bank. When voltage is high, indicating the alternator is charging, the relay closes and combines the two battery banks. Now both batteries are receiving a charge from the alternator. When the voltage is low, indicating a heavy load on on terminal B or the engine is off, the relay opens and isolates the main cranking battery from the house bank. This prevent any load drawing on the house bank from drawing on the main cranking.

mmandley
11-08-2012, 09:26 PM
I just want to clarify something in regards to the operation of the ACR. The Blue Sea 7610 ACR does not sense which battery needs charging and distribute to one or the other based on each batteries voltage per say. When the switch is in the on position, terminal A of the ACR is connected to the main cranking bank, and terminal B of the ACR is connected to the house battery bank. The main alternator cable is also connected to the main cranking bank. When voltage is high, indicating the alternator is charging, the relay closes and combines the two battery banks. Now both batteries are receiving a charge from the alternator. When the voltage is low, indicating a heavy load on on terminal B or the engine is off, the relay opens and isolates the main cranking battery from the house bank. This prevent any load drawing on the house bank from drawing on the main cranking.

Thats interesting.

In theory this means if you stop and party cove it, drain the 2nd battery playing your tunes. Then you start your boat up and the ACR senses voltage and charged the starting battery, it would combine both batteries to charge.

This would then actually drain your starting battery because they would all equalize.

If you then stoped to party cove it again and drained your stereo battery dead.

Restarted the boat you would essentiually equalize again and possible kill both batteries.

I cant recall what kind was in my boat but it would sense voltage and switch to the stereo bank, at no point would it add both banks as 1 unit. It was eighter charging the house battery or my stereo batteries.

Only when i switched it to Combine or hit opened the 2 circuit breakers did it combine all the batteries.

cab13367
11-09-2012, 04:18 AM
Mike,

I'm pretty sure you had the Blue Sea ACR also if its the one that I picked up for you at Active. MLA is correct about how it operates. Also, it has an undervoltage protection scheme that will prevent the ACR from combining the batteries if one battery is below a certain voltage to prevent exactly the scenario that you describe.

mmandley
11-09-2012, 08:56 AM
Mike,

I'm pretty sure you had the Blue Sea ACR also if its the one that I picked up for you at Active. MLA is correct about how it operates. Also, it has an undervoltage protection scheme that will prevent the ACR from combining the batteries if one battery is below a certain voltage to prevent exactly the scenario that you describe.

Correct Al on what i have i was simply trying to understand the theory of what would happen in the description but it looks like you cleared it up with the Undervoltage protection you mentioned.

MLA
11-09-2012, 09:09 AM
Mike,

In theory, yes, if the house bank is heavily depleted, the main cranking would try to equalize with the low house bank. But, the low voltage setting on the ACR will quickly be reached and the ACR will again open and isolate the banks. This bouncing/cycling will continue until the house bank reaches a level of charge to where the ACR stays combined.

So in actuality, the ACR will not combine a full battery and dead battery and stay combined, thus allowing the full battery to equalize with the dead. When the house bank is heavily depleted, rotating the switch to combine will circumvent the ACR, allowing the house bank to receive and steady charge from the alternator and getting back up as fast as possible. As long as the engine is running, equalizing will not be an issue, so if you stop again, switch off of COMBINE.

mmandley
11-09-2012, 09:20 AM
Mike,

In theory, yes, if the house bank is heavily depleted, the main cranking would try to equalize with the low house bank. But, the low voltage setting on the ACR will quickly be reached and the ACR will again open and isolate the banks. This bouncing/cycling will continue until the house bank reaches a level of charge to where the ACR stays combined.

So in actuality, the ACR will not combine a full battery and dead battery and stay combined, thus allowing the full battery to equalize with the dead. When the house bank is heavily depleted, rotating the switch to combine will circumvent the ACR, allowing the house bank to receive and steady charge from the alternator and getting back up as fast as possible. As long as the engine is running, equalizing will not be an issue, so if you stop again, switch off of COMBINE.

That sounds better then i was understanding lol. Thanks man. I just know it took me 2 summers to get away from the old fasion switch isolator and now i will never go back. I loved the ACR i had and the no worries of it. Only thing i had to worry about was a circuit breaker getting bumped open and that bank going dead, normally my stereo would die in 5 hours or so LOL. Very embarrasing to be cranking it while your best bro is ripping it up on the wakeboard and half a dozen boats watching and your big monster stereo cuts out LOL.

beat taco
11-09-2012, 09:56 AM
I knew all that, just thought I'd make sure you guys did! J/k, thanks for the explanation guys.
To the OP Chawk, if you want install advice take some pics and we can go around on that for a while. Have you considered cables yet?

chawk610
11-09-2012, 10:55 AM
I am getting the cables tomorrow... are there special kind? I was just going to get standard battery cables.

mmandley
11-09-2012, 11:14 AM
I am getting the cables tomorrow... are there special kind? I was just going to get standard battery cables.

That will work, as long as there 2 gauge or larger. You can get different style that are easy to bend and manipulate.

beat taco
11-09-2012, 11:21 AM
I got marine tinned from genuine dealz, not sure if it matters. You will need some cables for the ACR as well.

chawk610
11-19-2012, 07:28 AM
Well. probably not the most popular choice, but I went with the K.I.S.S. option (Keep it simple stupid). I think it is gonna work out well. I would like a cleaner look if anyone has any suggestions. These cables do not like to behave. :)
16573

chawk610
11-19-2012, 07:32 AM
try this again... LOL
16574

jpetty3023
11-19-2012, 11:10 AM
try this again... LOL
16574

great job!! but stand by for all the jokes about wires and mouses. I got kicked hard for my second battery install and the sad thing is I paid a shop to do mine. I like your set up but the stereo guru's will chime in soon enuff about all them wires!


sent from my home phone

chawk610
11-19-2012, 11:18 AM
I can change it at will. I wan't sure if I should harness them all together or not. I really don't like the sloppy look.

parrothd
11-19-2012, 11:20 AM
You need some terminal protection, someone is going to throw something metal in there and cause a short/fire.

Not sure but by law I think the battery needs to be in a box to contain the acid if broken?...Not sure about that one...

Correction terminal protection is required.. :)

bergermaister
11-19-2012, 11:47 AM
Plus a cover just makes the look a little cleaner.

I did mine similar to yours but pushed both batteries further in. That way I could run the wires straight down from the switch and back to the batteries. Mine don't run through the hole in the floor like yours but I think you could do the same and tuck them under the lip of the passenger helm support to keep them at bay. I think Al Cab acutally drilled holes through his support to feed the wires so he didn't have to run them underneath and be exposed.

http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1060991.jpg

Top cable goes to breaker and then to amp distro.
Two smaller red cable coming in are from the batteries.
Larger pink looking cable goes back to the starter.
http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1060994.jpg

I don't know if your batteries would crowd that front amp though. May get ugly - but hey, just move it! You didn't really think you were done yet did you? Now that you've thrown up what you've got all the other ideas will start popping up.

Time for a new amp rack...
http://i326.photobucket.com/albums/k414/grberglund/MoombaMobiusV/P1060992.jpg

chawk610
11-19-2012, 12:16 PM
I plan on a box... couldn't find one the other day for the #27 battery I am using. I def want to clean it up... Hey, I have all winter. Amp is next followed by LED speaker rings.

jfox8807
11-21-2012, 08:09 AM
hey as far as cabels go this is what im useing for my install this winter. they offer it in all kind of colors and size/ga and length idk if it helps. http://www.ebay.com/itm/280960337415?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648 i also tried to buy as mush stuff that has a how would u say it. skrew tighting feature. so you need less crimps just keeps it eaiser imo. EX: amp use a alan skrew so does the distro block and the circuit breakers and the ring terminals to attach the cabel to batt

mparker2997
07-09-2013, 08:49 PM
I recently had a sub, amp and tower speakers installed at a local stereo shop. They do work on a lot of boats. I also had them install a switch (1, 2, Both, Off) and a second battery. I did not trace the wires to see how everything was hooked up.

I have power to everything in 1, 2 & both. I like this....just making sure there is nothing to be concerned about with it this way.

Also, I have not had a chance to take the boat out on the water but I hope there is no noise.

Cigars n scotch
07-10-2013, 01:41 PM
MLA, you're in the Lake Wylie area correct? And you have a shop where you do installs? I'm interested in talking with you about installing a second battery setup with switch and ACR if you do that kind of thing.

We can take it offline through PMs but if I had your location wrong just correct me. We are moving to that area next week and I'd REALLY like to stop having to turn off my stereo switch after a bit for fear of draining my starting battery. I have the second battery and the switch, and it seems everyone likes the ACR addition so I'd have to pick one up.

Let me know.

MLA
07-10-2013, 02:31 PM
MLA, you're in the Lake Wylie area correct? And you have a shop where you do installs? I'm interested in talking with you about installing a second battery setup with switch and ACR if you do that kind of thing.

We can take it offline through PMs but if I had your location wrong just correct me. We are moving to that area next week and I'd REALLY like to stop having to turn off my stereo switch after a bit for fear of draining my starting battery. I have the second battery and the switch, and it seems everyone likes the ACR addition so I'd have to pick one up.

Let me know.

I'd be happy to work with you. Yes, im located 20 minutes from Buster Boyd bridge, juts over the NC line on 279.

We do a lot of dual battery banks, both with and without an ACR. For a typical system, I like the ACR setup as its passive/automatic. Turn the switch to ON when you hit the water, turn it back to OFF when you are leaving the water.

Shoot me a PM and I will give you my contact info.