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EricU
12-07-2012, 12:54 PM
I am going to be building some sub enclosures for our 28’ pontoon boat that we use as a landing pad while out boarding. It has an upper deck, where the kids hang out and jump off of.

I was planning on building the enclosures for the upper deck to hold to 12” subs in a removable (for towing clearance) seat base and two more for the lower deck area.

Can someone give me some suggestions on the following subs; I love the JL Audio W6 subs but at around 6 bills a pop and I plan on having four…


JBL GTO1214 ~$80
12" Single 4 ohm GTO Series Car Subwoofer (http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_13865_JBL-GTO1214.html)


JBL GTO1214D ~$75
12" Dual 4 ohm GTO Series Car Subwoofer (http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_13864_JBL-GTO1214D.html)


MB Quart PS3-302 ~$65
12" Dual 2 ohm PS3 Series Car Subwoofer (http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_44468_MB-Quart-PS3-302.html)


MB Quart PS3-304 ~$65
12" Dual 4 ohm PS3 Series Car Subwoofer (http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_44469_MB-Quart-PS3-304.html)


Kicker CVR124 (07CVR124) ~$75
12" Dual 4 ohm CompVR Series Car Subwoofer (http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_8363_Kicker-CVR124-07CVR124.html)


Thanks for any help, Eric.

sandm
12-07-2012, 03:15 PM
not sure on what amp(s) you plan on using, but you have 3 different ohm ratings there so how are you going to hook them up?

I'd probably buy the quart if it was me as i've never used their stuff before and it would give me a good chance to test it out at prices that aren't going to break the bank..

Brianinpdx
12-07-2012, 04:24 PM
Sand is on to something here for you. Start with the available power you have amplifier wise. Some amps can handle 1 ohm loads, and others cannot. Even if you are planing on running 2 different sub amplifiers, the sub question still needs to start there. The key is going to be to match up the correct subs, to correct amplifier, regardless of brand involved. Make sense?

Sounds like this is going to be a nice party once the upgrades are done. :)

-Brian

EricU
12-07-2012, 04:31 PM
Sand is on to something here for you. Start with the available power you have amplifier wise. Some amps can handle 1 ohm loads, and others cannot. Even if you are planing on running 2 different sub amplifiers, the sub question still needs to start there. The key is going to be to match up the correct subs, to correct amplifier, regardless of brand involved. Make sense?

Sounds like this is going to be a nice party once the upgrades are done. :)

-Brian

Thanks for the reply guys, but as this is a complete new system, as I dont have anything yet except the boat, I have the luxury of being able to match amps to subs.

So, anyone have good/bad experience with any of these subs? I have really only used JL Audio for the last 10 or 12 years.

Eric.

Clamcakes
12-07-2012, 04:53 PM
Eric I had one of these in a sealed box with 400 watts going to it and it hit. Was surprised how good it sounded for as cheap as i got it

Kenwood KFC-W3013PS

Sonicelectronix.com has it for $55

EarmarkMarine
12-07-2012, 04:57 PM
EricU,
I have tons of experience doing boathouses, pontoons, house boats, and yachts with a flybridge. In other words, on elevated surfaces with little in the way of reinforcing planes. I also have years of experience doing back yards, systems around pools and exterior commercial sound. Believe me, a different set of acoustic rules apply versus what you may have experienced in your towboat.
I have a different type suggestion regardless of which woofer you select:
Do NOT place subwoofers on the upper deck. A single well-designed woofer/enclosure located on the lower deck could easily out-perform four upper deck subs. The farther you get from the water level the less bass you will be able to create. The more you spread the subs out or attempt to disperse the bass the less bass you will have. Also, the amount of supply current and amplifier power you will waste trying to develop sound pressure at lower/longer frequencies from an elevated position is staggering.
Try this simple experiment. Take your home HiFi or theater sub and set it out in the middle of the back yard. You will be shocked at just how anemic the sub becomes. Now, set the sub atop a ladder in the middle of the back yard. It gets much worse. You may get some midbass but you will not get ANY deep bass no matter how hard you work that sub. There are inescapable physical reasons for the losses.

David

Brianinpdx
12-08-2012, 12:13 AM
Holy heck on the Sub analogies.

When your done running laps around your back yard with the subs.... (wait you don't have subs?), Take it indoors and put it near a wall. This is called boundary loading and gives a nice lift in the response. Position it next to two walls and it sometimes be double wow. In my last house, I actually built the subs into the floor and ported them up thru air vents in the hardwood floor. It was awesome because people never saw any enclosures. Wait, back to this thread.... I think you where just looking for sub advice, right?

Double wait--- I got it. Lets park the pontoon in the back yard and rock it. Thats the ticket. Anyone got a meter?

My comments are meant to be light hearted here. I think maybe we should make a poll (not sure how to do that), and we can vote on the subs he posted up?


-Brian

11 Outback V
12-08-2012, 06:50 AM
Holy Crap Batman, remind me never to ask David for sub advice!!! I do beleive the OP asked for suggestions on subs not your resume.
Have you ever been to an outdoor concert? If you notice they have speakers, including subs, mounted angleing down, and get great sound. Im sure some audio engineer has done a lot more research in how to make it work then anyone here.
My suggestion is to follow that concept when building your enclosure.


hey I still didnt answer his question

jmvotto
12-08-2012, 08:15 AM
Bak to op I guess.

Don't have experience with those brands, but with Polk and exile, question was cheap so exile is out,

These are Marine certified and cheap, sound pretty good for the price.
http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_14921_Polk-Audio-DB1240DVC.html

MLA
12-08-2012, 08:18 AM
I'll try to sum it up......choose which ever sub you want, as they will all sound like poo poo if executed poorly. This is a message that is repeated time and time again, the best sub is the one done properly. 9 out of 10 times, the folks with the interdependent opinion, get hammered by those in a certain brand camp, when they do not recommend the brand of choice. In this case, its kinda funny because David is getting flamed, by a manufacturer of a brand not even mentioned, of all people, for simply offering some install advice. David has far more audio, car audio and marine audio knowledge and experience then anyone else on this forum, and many other forums. I even bounce ideas off him and get advice from time to time from David about particular install hurdles that come up.

Back on topic, I would agree with David in regards to the subs location. Placed on the top deck of an aluminum pontoon, is not going to offer that boundary-loading that was mention. The dual sub box/bench seat is going to be a great treat for a couple ladies that get to sit on it, but is going to be lacking for the rest of the boat. I thinks its going to sound kinda flat and weak at best, and is going to do more to rattle the aluminum frame of the deck, rather then benefit from it as we would see with a dense solid structure.

MLA
12-08-2012, 08:47 AM
After rereading your posts, I do not see mentioned whether you are thinking sealed or ported enclosure. Most subs either lean one way or the other, with a few falling in the middle. I would decide on the enclosure type, then go with the sub that is best suited for that enclosure type. The enclosure location will come into play now. The boat may dictate to some degree, which way you can go.

EarmarkMarine
12-08-2012, 09:41 AM
Just trying to offer Eric some application advice, independent of brand, before he puts forth all the effort and makes a mistake. Mike is right in that the brand is irrelevant if the execution is poor.
I've also been to plenty of open/outdoor concerts, with elevated stages, and no amphitheater, and the bass was awful away from the stage regardless of the number of woofer cabinets.....despite the best efforts of the sound engineers. They can only take what the venue gives them. And that scenario actually has benefits that a pontoon would never have.
If you are placing four subs overhead for the sole benefit of those on the upper deck or on the lower deck it would be passable, but if your expectations are to generate bass away from the pontoon you are going to be sorely disappointed proceeding this way.

David

beat taco
12-08-2012, 10:26 AM
Ever heard the exile big 12 Eric? It won't disappoint you either. Just throwing it out there.

EarmarkMarine
12-08-2012, 11:56 AM
^^^^ talk about going off topic and an unrelated plug.

IMO, the Exile BIG 12 is just an okay woofer for what you pay after discount. But there is nothing unique about it. Made in a N. Calif. build house that designs and makes many other brands. Nothing proprietary about the parts other than the Exile dustcap. Some of the specs are useless like peak to peak Xmax (who cares what the maximum uncontrolled excursion is).
Paper cone. Very high resonance for a sound quality sub (absolutely trades off low frequency extension for more peak output over a narrower bandwidth). A 3-inch 4-layer voice coil is going to be hungry so don't expect this sub to rock until you put a ton of power on it. So when you combine this woofer cost with the required amplifier, this will be a long way from bass on a budget.

David

sandm
12-08-2012, 12:11 PM
if you look at the op thread, he wants to add 2 on top and 2 on the bottom. I would think any of the 12's mentioned would add some bass to the system for just chillin on the lake. I put a kenwood 10 in a box on my sis tooner that came out of my old supra and it does a decent job of providing some bass, but like david mentioned, it can't be heard 100yards away. not the goal tho and I'm sure it's not the goal of the op.

at the prices mentioned, I'd pull the plug and play around with them. heck, if the 2 on top do no good, sell them on cl and recoup 75% of your $150 outlay :)

he did mention that jl is out of the price range for his intended application and so would exile-should leave it at that:)

EarmarkMarine
12-08-2012, 01:02 PM
Thanks sandm. A reasonable voice.
Originally I was trying to offer Eric some advice with a degree of substantiation but without getting too technical. There is much more here than just 'boundary loading' or other regurgitated stuff that someone read on the net.
Think this through. This is real. There will be a test.
The speed of sound is 1128 feet per second. So let's say we gladly sacrifice all really deep base knowing we are in an open field environment without reinforcing planes. But if we are running a party barge with four 12s we at minimum expect some good Michael Jackson Thriller type bass. Good ole punchy bass. So let's focus on 55 Hz. You are not going to get deeper bass anyway in this situation. Okay, that constitutes a 21 foot long waveform. At half that length (10.5 ft.) when the perception point (your ears) is close to one group of woofers then the output of the two woofer groups are out of phase and directly cancel one another. The cancellation is not as steep on either side of the 55 Hz frequency but the negative impact is still impactful. Does that 10.5 ft. distance sound somewhat coincidental to the distance between the upper and lower decks? Then compound that with the comb filter (cancellations) effects of the water plane and various points of perception. All variables and 90 percent of them are bad. Again, reflected energy out of phase with the direct energy at a given point of perception. The woofers and driving amplifiers will work against a huge acoustic handicap over their entire range where you expect a contribution. Soooo, I recommend a single and collected woofer position as close to the water level as possible (lower deck). Make a controlled compromise. Change the design model a bit and you will be far happier in the end. Seems simple enough to me.

David

beat taco
12-08-2012, 02:51 PM
It was a joke to the OP no need to rip me or Exile David! Sorry you felt the need to rip me, I'll pray for you. Thanks.

EricU
12-08-2012, 04:02 PM
Wow! didn't mean to for anyone to get any feathers ruffled, MLA and David both gave me some great guidance with picking out my Moomba's amps, HU and help design my sub-enclosure (which I will finally finish covering this week!) and it sounds great!!

That's why I posted my question for our pontoon boat as I want to get the stereo installed before this next season (April?) and thought that at those rediculously low prices compared to the JL W6s I would just get four - but I am NOT an audio engineer by any means and that is why I do listen to others' input. I am a structural engineer who grew up as a carpenter and I can build (and take apart) anything.

So let's actually get this design started, since I am starting with a blank sheet as I have, well nothing! No amp, no HU, no speakers, no idea what I am doing...

The boat is currently getting repowered (a new 150 4-stroke California friendly Merc) and we are going to replace the front soft canvas cover with a hard deck for more room up top. We can easily have 15 teenagers on a trip.

Anyway throw me some suggestions...


Go with one JL W6 in a ported enclosure?
Use 2 or 4 of the Sonix cheapies?
Keep the enclosure on just the lower deck?
Bolt the enclosure to the bottom of the upper deck?
2 subs next to each other under a seat on the bottom deck?
Go get some Pork to throw in the WFO (wood fired oven)? (in the backyard not on the boat)



And yes, I have fixed the windshield on the Moomba since that pic was taken!

http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv359/EricUht/Moomba/PontoonampMoomba.jpg

Thanks, and I look forward to your guy's input, Eric.

EarmarkMarine
12-08-2012, 04:21 PM
Now I've lost interest.

EarmarkMarine
12-08-2012, 04:25 PM
Just kidding. I couldn't stop myself.

Eric,
It has to begin with the supply.
How about starting with the available amperage supply of the outboard motor alternator/stator.
Considered a Gen? How long will this pontoon be playing in the course of a day?

David

beat taco
12-08-2012, 04:27 PM
Sorry Eric it was a Ziiiippppp joke after your "move ballast switches" thread. Recommend more expensive options. I guess I need to take a break from posting for a while.

Good luck guys, nothing but respect for all of you. If any Oregon guys see me out there say hi.

EricU
12-08-2012, 05:12 PM
Sorry Eric it was a Ziiiippppp joke after your "move ballast switches" thread...

Trust me! I do not get upset over anything that people post on forums! And I have learned alot (spent a lot? Zipped alot?) from this forum.

Anyway, to answer David's question,


Not really going to rely on the outboard's altenator for the main stereo power
Plan on having multiple batteries for the stereo
We already have one of those little Honda EU3000 Watt generators
Don't have any amps or a HU
I have not yet figured out how I will be framing the new front upper deck, Aluminum, Stainless, ????
I do have a nice new table saw that keeps calling me...Ericcc, Errrr rrricccc!! (been watching too many horror movies with my youngest...)



Eric.

EarmarkMarine
12-08-2012, 06:58 PM
Eric,
If your alternator size is adequate there is no reason for it not to service the stereo & stereo batteries until the desintation is reached and the engine is turned off. This might extend your playtime, reduce discharge levels and prolong the batteries lifespan. After depletion you would not re-introduce the alternator, in any case, to the stereo battery bank again within the context of that day. So on that basis the alternator/stator capacity is good info to have.
Planning on having a substantial shore charger?
Did you plan on using the above mentioned Gen on the boat as standard equipment? If so, will the charger be asked to function as a power supply/convertor?
What kind of play time at rest are you expecting?
Will the volume be kept at a level that is safe for children and will it be louder on occasion with adults only?

David

EricU
12-08-2012, 07:23 PM
Eric,
If your alternator size is adequate there is no reason for it not to service the stereo & stereo batteries until the desintation is reached and the engine is turned off. This might extend your playtime, reduce discharge levels and prolong the batteries lifespan. After depletion you would not re-introduce the alternator, in any case, to the stereo battery bank again within the context of that day. So on that basis the alternator/stator capacity is good info to have.

That was the idea with the motor's alternator and the gen set.

The motor's alternator is rated at 60 amps -- 756 watts (12.6V)




Planning on having a substantial shore charger?

I would like to run a ProMariner Prosport 20

If I can figure out how to wire it, I would also like to install a Blueseas ACR and switch as I really like the install on the Moomba




Did you plan on using the above mentioned Gen on the boat as standard equipment? If so, will the charger be asked to function as a power supply/convertor?

We bought the gen set specifically for the camping and were planning on permanently mounting it or another on the pontoon boat.




What kind of play time at rest are you expecting?

All day in the cove. The pontoon boat is used as a home base for the Moomba, too many kids!

Will definately run class D amps.




Will the volume be kept at a level that is safe for children and will it be louder on occasion with adults only?

Pretty normal levels - whatever that is - levels, where you can talk. Of course every now and then the kids will hear some song and want it "turned up"

EarmarkMarine
12-08-2012, 08:32 PM
Eric,
60 amps isn't bad for an outboard. So you can benefit from that on the way to your destination.
Definitely Class D all the way!
The ProSport 20 isn't designed to work at that level continuously.....only for a short duration in the 'bulk' charging phase. You could easily run that size of charger into the ground. So if you are going to use a charger in conjunction with a Gen as a power supply then you definitely need to step up to a higher amperage and convertor class of charger.
The Blue Sea VSR and dual circuit manual switch (or auto AC relay to replace the manual switch) is an easy layout. I like supplementing the VSR with an AC relay since the shore charger will be in frequent operation and this will make everything totally automated.

Your subwoofer(s) will be the largest part of the current draw and will be one of the initial considerations in sizing your amplifier and charging support, battery capacity, etc.
In sequence, the boat will determine the best location and orientation plus displacement for the subwoofer enclosure. And that will then determine the optimum size of subwoofer and optimum enclosure type whether bandpass, bass-reflex or air suspension. The actual subwoofer driver selection should come later. When you get a chance survey the boat and scout the possibilities.

David

EricU
12-08-2012, 09:01 PM
...The ProSport 20 isn't designed to work at that level continuously.....only for a short duration in the 'bulk' charging phase. You could easily run that size of charger into the ground...

I would only use the ProSport 20 as a shore charger while the boat was either docked, on the trailer or in it's boathouse. Not while using the stereo.


Is there something else I should consider?




So if you are going to use a charger in conjunction with a Gen as a power supply then you definitely need to step up to a higher amperage and convertor class of charger.

I was planing on running the boat to it's sitting spot (cove), no gen set running. Then the gen set gets fired up running off the 12V output to the batteries or running to a converter off the 120V output to a converter. The gen set will run a little over 20 amps at 120V (or 144 watts at 12V dc.)

Havent got that part figured out yet.

I guess I should be using feeding the gen set to a converter?


I also have a 6500 watt gen set that I can commander if I need, (sometimes it's good to have a construction company!)




The Blue Sea VSR and dual circuit manual switch (or auto AC relay to replace the manual switch) is an easy layout. I like supplementing the VSR with an AC relay since the shore charger will be in frequent operation and this will make everything totally automated.


Can you point me to a single line?





Your subwoofer(s) will be the largest part of the current draw and will be one of the initial considerations in sizing your amplifier and charging support, battery capacity, etc.
In sequence, the boat will determine the best location and orientation plus displacement for the subwoofer enclosure. And that will then determine the optimum size of subwoofer and optimum enclosure type whether bandpass, bass-reflex or air suspension. The actual subwoofer driver selection should come later. When you get a chance survey the boat and scout the possibilities.

My mounting options are really very open (building the boxes will be the easy part) and since my original idea got shot, laid dead and has been burned til gone!


Any suggestions on what I should be looking at?
Under some seats on the bottom deck?
On the bottom of the upper deck in a custom custom enclosure?


I have a full woodworking shop, and my buddy does vinyl work for me, so we can pretty much put the subwoofer(s) anywhere.

Thanks again for the help, I know it isn't so easy to "dumb it down" for an internet answer!

Eric.

EarmarkMarine
12-08-2012, 09:38 PM
A lot of this is highly interdependent. So let's start with kind of a test scenario.
Multiple subs are going to really eat up current. Collective fullrange power and lowpass power should be within 3 dB of symmetrical for balance.
More power requires more battery reserves which requires more of a battery charger. It all dominoes. You are only as good as the weak link. Weak links lead to reliability issues and premature product turnover, especially batteries.
You want to keep consumer grade deep cycle batteries discharged no lower than their half power, which is 12 volts.
Playing mostly at what is perceived as half volume is -10 dB and only consuming 1/10th of your full power.
Continuous play for 5 or 6 hours.
Music is dynamic in nature and not like DC lighting.
Class D is highly efficient and that is a big plus.
I would want 200 to 250 amp/hours of battery reserves minimum and a 30 amp minimum convertor class charger so that I had the option of running the Gen to get a charge when needed and still be able to operate the stereo at a moderate level while charging in those rare instances.
There is an answer until every aspect of the system is pin-pointed. Then it can be accurately checked.

Subs? Place the horse before the cart and do some measurements on the boat. Lower deck only. Collected in a single location is best. Concealing the subs would be nice. Perhaps the sub enclosure could double as a table. In an idea situation I would want my sub centered between all my highpass/fullrange speakers. This will provide the best possible phase coherency between the two if you don't mind having a little sound quality as an added bonus.

David

EricU
12-09-2012, 11:58 PM
...Collective fullrange power and lowpass power should be within 3 dB of symmetrical for balance...


How do I figure out the db levels of the subs and tower(?) speakers





More power requires more battery reserves which requires more of a battery charger...Playing mostly at what is perceived as half volume is -10 dB and only consuming 1/10th of your full power...I would want 200 to 250 amp/hours of battery reserves minimum

Batteries wont be a problem and we have lots of room for them.




...and a 30 amp minimum convertor class charger so that I had the option of running the Gen to get a charge when needed and still be able to operate the stereo at a moderate level while charging in those rare instances.


Do you have a link to a converter like that? I keep finding small wattage units.
Are there marine grade transfer swiches that we could use? a MTS or a set of walking beam interlocks would be fine with me.




Eric.

EarmarkMarine
12-10-2012, 09:44 AM
Eric,
+/- 3 dB is a measurement of power (double/half). So just think symmetrical power between the subs (lowpass) and all fullrange speakers (highpass). Some people will have different priorities. It's just a starting point in establishing what might be your eventual current draw.

Blue Sea makes a number of AC ship-to-shore switching options.

David

jfox8807
12-14-2012, 11:13 AM
hey eric as far as subs go imo i love the re audio se-x line. they have 10-15" i think so which ever size u want i think they may be over ur price just a hair but they are really nice and sound great. ive heard numerous people compare them to jl w6's and say they where right there with them as far as output and sq. might be somthin to look into i got mine from sonic electronix

good luck with the project Fox