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freshturk
02-11-2013, 05:46 PM
By the looks of a few recent threads, it appears that I'm not the only one with new stereo plans. I really have no car/boat audio/electrical experience whatsoever and my plans for my system have been created solely through my forum browsing.

Basically looking for input/suggestions as to what I might be missing. A little background, i have a 2012 LSV, v2 tower, 2 stock roswell tower speakers, 4 stock kicker in-boats, stock 4 channel amp, stock HU, dual battery with on-board charger from the factory.

My plans are for:
4 exile xm9s
4 exile sx65-ms
1 exile harpoon 1000w
1 exile 800.4
exile ZLD

I'd like to keep everything else the same if it will work, this way it makes the install essentially plug and play with the exception of the ZLD.

Heres a few Qs:
-we do tend to hang out quite a bit with the boat off/stereo on (just loud enough to hear while swimming in the vicinity) will 2 batteries suffice?
-the installer is the only local installer that advertises anything marine audio although I've never seen any boats at their shop as i drive past almost daily (NE ohio has a significantly limited market, only 2 small lakes within an hours drive) My question here is any suggestions regarding wiring that i can suggest or look for to try to micro manage? I seem to remember numerous posts on various forums regarding noise due to which battery is hooked to which??(remember, zero audio experience here)
-I seem to remember a post that ive been unable to locate that someone showed a hidden passage between the passenger compartment and the drivers area on the LSVs which will make wiring the ZLD significantly easier.
-As for a sub, I'm sure someone will ask why not and the answer is simply I'm spending enough as it is on the new stereo and didnt want to push it much more so i figured I would try without a sub for the time being and could always add later in the season or next.

Basically just looking for some info so when i do get everything installed I'm not getting the wool pulled over my eyes or there isnt some glaring component, aspect of the system im missing.

sandm
02-11-2013, 06:30 PM
personally, ditch 2 of the xm9's initially and add a sub, getting the other xm9's later. that system will sound good, but a sub will make it sound great. sell the stock stuff to fund part of the sub/amp.

just my .02..

should be nice when you are done...

Brianinpdx
02-11-2013, 06:56 PM
Turk -

Sounds like you have a project on your hands. Many guys have that setup and it rocks. When planning your upgrade I like to break the boat into different zones - Tower / sub / cabin to address the goals of each. The ZLD that your speaking about will control all 3 zones. Overall, the system that you've laid out is great tower and cabin wise, but lacking n the sub zone. You could take sandM advice and ditch a pair of tower speakers or you could put that zone on the list down the road to upgrade. Having a subwoofer will add almost a full octave of musical information that is not otherwise part of the boat stereo. You dont have to be a bass head to think about using a sub.

As to your questions...


Heres a few Qs:
-we do tend to hang out quite a bit with the boat off/stereo on (just loud enough to hear while swimming in the vicinity) will 2 batteries suffice?
*** depends on how much time you going to be sitting. 2 batteries will buy you 3+ hours of play time while the engine is off. This is not much concern when your underway (engine on) and pulling boarders etc.

-The installer is the only local installer that advertises anything marine audio although I've never seen any boats at their shop as i drive past almost daily (NE ohio has a significantly limited market, only 2 small lakes within an hours drive)
*** I've got a great guy I could refer you to out of Cleveland if thats close. Or if you want to be a DIY guy, we typically guide people step by step right down to the final tune.

My question here is any suggestions regarding wiring that i can suggest or look for to try to micro manage?
** if you want to shoot me a PM, I can send you wire charts on the whole system as you've laid out.

-I seem to remember a post that ive been unable to locate that someone showed a hidden passage between the passenger compartment and the drivers area on the LSVs which will make wiring the ZLD significantly easier.
*** if you order the ZLD KIT - it comes with 4 20ft RCA's which will give you enough distance to run around your helm. or straight across should you choose.

-As for a sub, I'm sure someone will ask why not and the answer is simply I'm spending enough as it is on the new stereo and didnt want to push it much more so i figured I would try without a sub for the time being and could always add later in the season or next.
** as discussed above, this thinking is just fine. Treat it as a separate project when that time comes.

-Brian

freshturk
02-11-2013, 07:56 PM
Thanks for the replies guys. Brian as for the installer in Cleveland i would greatly appreciate some info. Its only about an hour and 15 away and I was looking for an excuse to not use my local installer as I was somewhat put off by the attitude i received upon inquiring about the install. As far as installation is concerned, am i correct in thinking that this install should only take a few hours being that its plug 'n play for the most part?

I think the issue I have with the sub is that I've not been in any boats with a fantastic system so I lack a point of reference regarding systems with sub vs not.

jfox8807
02-11-2013, 09:07 PM
I don't think u could even get started in a couple hours much less finish to much stuff todo. I don't care if it was plug and play

jmvotto
02-11-2013, 09:34 PM
Yes it will take a few days to get it done. I have my dealer swap out my gear as they are all equipped for audio installs. Might check out that option. Sub is a necessity and two of the xm9 s should be just fine. I did the same upgrade you are contemplating, this spring I will be swapping out the factory 700.5 kicker amp for a dedicated sub and exile xi 800.4 amp..

rdlangston13
02-11-2013, 09:52 PM
I'd say a few hours every night for a week or so


Sent from my iPhone

EarmarkMarine
02-12-2013, 06:45 AM
freshturk,
There are several really good reasons to include a subwoofer in your system even if you have a conservative attitude about bass and its emphasis. In anticipating how your system will perform I think you are overlooking the importance of this ingredient.
An 8-inch speaker on the tower, like the XM9, is a very decent size, however, the bass extension is determined more by the pod displacement versus the cone size. And tower speakers short of a 5 gallon drum, do not play low enough to cover the entire music spectrum. Neither do 6.5" in-boat speakers. As you increase speed and increase volume, the bandwidth (musical range) tends to narrow more, paricularly towards the bass end of the spectrum. Sound quality becomes a matter of the proper balance.
You can highpass (filter) tower speakers and in-boat speakers at 70 hertz (an entire octave above the point at which you can still perceive pitch) as a test and for the most part you will not detect a loss of material. That is because the output is already diminished by half the nominal output as we perceive it. Without a subwoofer you are eliminating an octave of fundamentals with diminishing contribution for nearly two octaves. Think in terms of erasing the last octave of a large piano with all those keys missing.
In the enclosed cabin of a vehicle or within a room in your home, the subwoofer requirement is not nearly as important. But in the acoustics of an open-field environment, a subwoofer becomes an essential element.
If you are satisfied with musical balance, and not looking for bass dominance, then a decent quality 10-inch subwoofer and amplifier can be packaged for $250 pre enclosure.
Of all the people to team up with, I would be most concerned with my local installer if I am dependent on an installer. If you micro-manage the project and supply all the equipment then there is always a chance that you have eliminated ownership and accountability on his part. Some won't even accept the work on that basis. Others may see it as just another paying job. Without considerable experience, to think that you are qualified to manage the process and control the outcome is dreaming. Keep looking until you find an installer that you completely trust. Then consider reciprocal support by giving them the option of supplying the equipment. The total price might not be that different but you may end up with far more value and long term satisfaction. Think service down the road. Just another route to entertain.

David

jfox8807
02-12-2013, 07:24 AM
I agree with earmarkmarine a sub is a huge factory and this past summer my sub went out and it killed my system and IMO to me it killed the range on my tower speakers as well while boarding. I think the bass was canceling out some of the engine noise and helpin the tower speakers overcome it a bit.

As far as price goes a simple sub set up wouldn't cost much. even as over the top as mine is I only paid 280 for the amp 280 for both subs 40 for a sheet of plywood 15 for carpet and say 30 for glue screws and stuff and you wouldn't need nearly as much to be effective so for 645 I have a very loud set of subs. So I def think for 300 u could have a nice sub amp box combo and it greatly help out ur sound

kaneboats
02-12-2013, 09:38 AM
Do it yourself for two reasons. 1. The system will break and you will have to take the boat to your installer to go through it and find out what went wrong. If you are the installer you will know every piece and where everything is. When you decide to change something you will know what you have and what you need to do. Yes, it will take longer but you can do it and; 2. It's fun to work on your boat and get things exactly how you want them.

Also, there's plenty of help on here to guide you.

mmandley
02-12-2013, 10:32 AM
System line up is looking grear bud.

I agree with Sandm just get 1 pair of XM9s and use that extra money fo0r the Sub and round out the system. You can add the other pair of XM9s next season and it wont cost you that much as all it requires is splicing them into the existing wires, and retuning the amp.

As for the hidden compartment, it was on the boats with the Ski Locker, you had wire hole in the cubby to the ski locker and it had piping in it for wires, with a chanell that led to the drivers foot well area.

On the 12 and up it went to the Hard tank in the center and this compartment has dispeared as fare as i know. I just ran all my wires in my Mojo yesterday and went around the boar with the wires. Theres enough of a lip in the bow under the seats to zip tie all the wires up out of view and out of the way.

Also you can fit them behind the cup holders, and this is a Strong Must do option if you plan to run an IBS nose bag for surfing or wake boarding

wolfeman131
02-12-2013, 01:00 PM
I saw these at Lowe's the other day. They look like what the factory is now using to zip tie cables, wires, hoses, etc up & out of the way.

16878

http://www.lowes.com/pd_292685-1781-45-1MBUVL_0__?productId=3128405&Ntt=cable+tie+clip&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNtt%3Dcable%2Btie%2Bclip&facetInfo=

freshturk
02-12-2013, 03:06 PM
Appreciate all the help guys, as far as the channel my 2012 still has the ski locker. I think only the 12 mojo went to hard tanks. Ive never looked inside my ski locker for the pass-thru. Anyone else with a 2012 lsv have any experience with this? After looking over exiles site a little more it appears my budget concerns were primarily because I was looking at their higher end sub/amp combos.

Whatre everyones thoughts on the s12 dvc sub with a sm600.1. If i end up adding this to what I had planned will this then require me to add a 3rd battery?

Anyone have dimensions on a sub box that would work with my boat?

sandm
02-12-2013, 04:02 PM
if you hang out and chill frequently, I'd encourage a single start battery and a dual battery configuration for the stereo/acc. there are many formulas that mla/earmark can give you to determine whether or not you need one and to what capacity, but I figure for $100, better safe than sorry. I was using 2 standard deep cycle group 24's and had 3 fosgate amps, 2 class ab and a class d on the sub. they never drained the batteries that I noticed and never had an amp go into protect from lack of voltage. we ran them pretty hard when at the dock chillin-typically 3-4hrs a day.

MLA
02-12-2013, 04:11 PM
fresh,

Since your boat is brand new and only has 2 pair of in-boats, I would consider adding a 3rd pair and evaluate the current amp. i do not know if the 2013's are still coming with the Kicker DX200.4 or now a Roswell amp. Even the best speaker will not sound its best when under powered.

A few posts back, you mentioned some concerns about adding batteries and battery life. I would highly suggest looking into a line of full-range Class-D amps. They are soo much more efficient then Class-A/B,as much as 40% more efficient. The draw less battery amp hours while producing the same watts output as a class-A/B, produce less heat as a byproduct and are typically smaller then their A/B counterparts.

Depending on how much bass output you seek, I would look into a 5 or 6 chnl amp for the in-boat and sub. There are quite a few Class-D option that can easily power 2-3 pairs of in-boats with up to as much as 500W RMS for a 2 ohm sub and its all in one chassis. These will drive a variety of 12" subs. This makes wiring easy as its one less amp to find room for and less cabling and connections.

I agree in sticking with the larger 8" HLCD if you want near-field listen and wake-board range projection.

EarmarkMarine
02-12-2013, 05:17 PM
Actually, Class D is typically 60 percent more efficient than Class AB. And Class H is about in the middle range at around 40 percent more efficient than Class AB.
It's important that you deplete your consumer-grade deep cycle batteries no less than 50 percent (from 12.7 to 12 volts) for maximum weekend to weekend performance and longevity.
Higher efficiency amplifiers are less of a strain on the batteries and charging system but there is another important aspect that is overlooked. As the supply voltage drops so does the amplifier power. After several hours of playtime your amplifiers could be at half power. A higher efficiency amplifier will better preserve the voltage and deliver more power under most conditions.

David

mmandley
02-13-2013, 09:04 AM
Appreciate all the help guys, as far as the channel my 2012 still has the ski locker. I think only the 12 mojo went to hard tanks. Ive never looked inside my ski locker for the pass-thru. Anyone else with a 2012 lsv have any experience with this? After looking over exiles site a little more it appears my budget concerns were primarily because I was looking at their higher end sub/amp combos.

Whatre everyones thoughts on the s12 dvc sub with a sm600.1. If i end up adding this to what I had planned will this then require me to add a 3rd battery?

Anyone have dimensions on a sub box that would work with my boat?

The S12 DVC sub with the 600.1 will rock nicly. A lot of people on here are running that exact combo. It will hit pretty hard. Honestly the Big 12 is a serious sub and unless you want to really shake the boat i think you will be happy with the S12.

As for the amps, im not going to tell you what i think you need to go with. There are sooo many out there, MLA and Dave both know amps very very well and push the Digi amps pretty hard on here.

It sometimes surprises me they do though, in a boating application and in your car using less power is always good, less heat is always good but for true Best sounding amplifers, you cant go wong with a quality A/B amp. I personally prefer to use them even though they run hotter and use more power because to me the sound is the most important thing.

This is why i select the speakers, i do, run the amps i run.

I have listened to everything out there thats big in the market, i have looked at all the new class D amps, and i could very easily go Class D to save room on my amp rack, save a battery in my battery tray, but at the end of the day. Nothing sounds as good as a quality A/b class amp.

jfox8807
02-13-2013, 09:17 AM
Also it doesn't matter what u have if u don't match ur gains up right with ur low level inputs it won't sound the best it can.

I just started using the SMD DD-1 to set gains and it will make an extremely noticeable difference in sound quality and sound level I highly recommend it. The only way you could top it IMO is to set gains with an oscope but the dd-1 is way easier and much cheaper y'all should check it out you can get it from sonic electronix

KG's Supra24
02-13-2013, 09:38 AM
I agree with the others that have commented on going with 2 tower speakers and adding a sub. I've had a wire come loose on the sub before and the overall sound just doesn't compare with having a sub vs not having one. Plus a large pair of HLCD's should get the job done at wake range.

If you are still debating on amps, which i'd imagine you would just match all the gear, but if not, the professionals here have noted on several threads that there is no quality loss when running the newer class d (maybe g/h as well) vs the class a/b.

jfox brings up a good point too. I still feel like I need to do some tweeking on the tuning side. I don't quite trust my ears to be musically accurate.

jfox8807
02-13-2013, 09:51 AM
Kg go with that SMD dd-1 it awesome I was way off by ear I turned the gains down and it made my stuff louder and cleaner

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_61378_SMD-DD-1-Distortion-Detector-Analyzer-by-Steve-Meade-Designs.html

EarmarkMarine
02-13-2013, 10:58 AM
Class D versus Class AB? The sound quality difference at this stage with higher grade Class D amplifiers is a myth or a result of placebo effect. There is good and bad grades of everything.
Here is a little education.
Class B is deeply flawed because the independent positive and negative transistors do not transition without serious distortion. They are not as linear or as responsive when going from zero potential to a certain voltage. But they do perform uniformly from a running voltage to any change in voltage. Sooo, Class AB places a bandaid on the problem by applying a bias voltage so that both positive and negative transistors are 'ON' to a degree all the time, even without a signal. The two opposing voltages cancel one another. But in the process create great waste and lots of heat is generated. Now they have been at Class AB since I was riding shotgun for Wells Fargo stagecoach lines (not actually)....so it is well refined. But bottom line is Class AB is a bandaid for Class B warts. It's like the pot calling the kettle black.
There is nothing digital about a Class D amplifier. It was just the next alpha designation available. It is a pure analog switching amplifier. The better ones switch and correct at a frequency ten times the sampling rate of CDs and 30 times higher than we will hear. The filtering is so high that it is completely detached from the audible bandwidth and leaves zero switching artifacts. But in the process generates one/fourth the heat for the identical current draw. And you're listening to an MP3 format through junk D to A conversion? In an environment with 50 db of ambient noise if you are at rest and the only one in the cove? How does that Class AB sound when it's choked for voltage because it's pulling 60 percent more current to make the same power?
Triple Darrington AB is well documented to have stabilty issues with highly capacitance loads. So they add a coil to the final stage of the outputs, just before the speakers, to provide a little inductance so there is no risk of oscillation into tweaky loads. Same darn filtering device used in a Class D amplifier.
Now esoteric home HiFi companies have like Krell and Mark Levinson have adopted fullrange Class D amplifiers. Think those cork sniffers are hyper particular?
Prosound is heavy Class D on self-powered fullrange HLCD line arrays.
The Absolute Sound did a feature edition on Class D amplification with prominent home amplifier engineers including Class A, Class AB and tube advocates. With that type of attention in that type of publication, you just cannot cling to antiquated technology from a previous century.
The best ME engineers from yesteryear that once produced AB for Precision Power, Xtant, Rockford Fosgate, Phoenix Gold and Zapco, to name a few, have all adopted fullrange Class D. The companies with domestic engineering have adopted fullrange Class D. Some of the importers have not.
Let's see....Alpine, JL Audio, Hertz/Audison, Rockford Fosgate, Kicker, Wetsounds and just about any company of consequence is focused on Class D for now and the future.

David

dusty2221
02-13-2013, 11:10 AM
Awesome post David. Thanks for that one.

jfox8807
02-13-2013, 11:50 AM
David just make me sit I aww sometimes idk good info man

mmandley
02-13-2013, 12:23 PM
Good education Dave, im no amp expert ill admit that. I might have been a little off in what i said compared to what im thinking but i was more refering to Digital Amps vs Analog amps.

I prefer the sound of an Analog amp to a Digital amp. I think it has a warmer richer sound then digital and i perfer to use them even though a Digital amp uses less power, has a smaller foot print and uses less power.

EarmarkMarine
02-13-2013, 12:58 PM
mmandley,
I am not familiar with any mobile audio 'digital' audio amplifiers so I'm not sure what you are referring to.

As for the "warmer richer sound", are we repeating a hand-me-down phrase out of a home esoteric Class A amplifier brochure, or phrasing from a digital to analog convertor brochure, are we using a direct to disc analog LP with an analog moving coil cartridge on an analog turntable with an analog tube phono section in our boat with Focal Utopia speakers? Are we one of the few with golden ears superior to all the best engineers? Or, are we just using digital sources, like CDs and and MP3s, originally recorded on a digital MAC laptop, on bright horn speakers with metal transducers?
Hey man, if we want to describe the sound in such subjective terms to counter objective references then I could say 8-tracks sound "warmer and richer" to me because they sound dull and inarticulate. If you want warmer and richer then turn down the treble and turn up the bass tone controls just a tad. Or buy an inherently warmer speaker or stuff some open cell foam down the throat of those horns.
Amplifiers are supposed to be neutral and invisible with no bias. The good ones accomplish this. Amplifiers are not suppose to mask the deficiencies in other elements of the signal path. If the amplifier measures ruler flat over the entire audio bandwidth and it measures low ultra distortion and it has fast slew rate and it is far more precise than the human auditory system then that amplifier sounds exactly like it measures.
Everything else is placebo effect, owners goggles or mental mast......never mind.

David

jfox8807
02-13-2013, 01:07 PM
stuff some open cell foam down the throat of those horns.

David

I just couldn't help but laugh i shoulda tried that with my pro 60's

Brianinpdx
02-13-2013, 03:33 PM
Holy tech speak. It never seems to fail that when someone talks about their audio project that somehow people get blasted off into science conversations. Why is that??? It seems like the thread is pushed that way. Why not just start a new thread and talk about this stuff? It's fun reading, but when I'm done, I often think...how did this relate to the Op's question.

On the amp tech stuff, my take is a little different... Class AB amplifiers definitely sound different. Heck, class AB versus class AB amplifiers sound different. There is no such thing in the real world as a completely neutral sounding amplifier. Not at the level we are talking about here in mobile marine world. Some companies spend quite a bit more to use bipolar output sections, versus jelly bean mosfets. And some use more expensive mosfets. And some bring into the mix Triple darlington supplies. Others use hard regulation and soft regulation and they ALL of this affects performance, all have tonal differences. To put all Class AB amps in the same bucket is really omitting a lot to the audience.

Class D amplifiers in 2013 within the confines of whats in the market are based on one of 3 chip sets. Several of the brands mentioned all share them. I'd prefer to keep this general and not a brand war. There's no doubt that class d brings more efficient use of power. In my opinion, its at all gold standard sound quality wise in the mobile environment and wont be for many years to come. Possibly in the future... but not even close right now in comparison to higher end A/AB designs. I'd also agree that this technology is expensive at the mfg level and does offer huge power gains over clas a,b,ab designs. I dont agree with the comparison on what is happening on wakeboard boats versus pro audio companies are doing is the same. Thats just a huge stretch... my gosh the cost basis are gigantic. focusing on just the industry at hand (marine), though many Class D platforms share chipsets, there are big time differences between a 199 class D amp and 1000 from brand xyz. There is so much more to this than efficiency within the class d montra. My issue isnt with Class D at all. It's with making broad sweeping statements that Class AB is antiquated and D is not. I think the statement that needs to be made here is that Class D is definitely here to stay and that companies everywhere are working hard to improve the sound quality at a price that wont break the bank. There is still work to be done in that department.

Along those lines, people also need to understand that there are some real genuine concerns with this design platform. The Radiated EMF knocks out radio which is a big problem for cars... If speaker impedance dips to low, these designs become very unstable very fast (more so than higher end AB designs). Failure can be catastrophic (and in fairness any amplifier by any design class can have catastrophic failure). Are these reasons to stay away from Dclass that are on the market? Heck no... but they are big time on the radar of companies bringing these products into the market.

It should also be noted, that a lot of the amazing efficiency we'd like to get excited and advertise about goes right out the window under low impedance loads. These amps are super eff at their highest impedance rating. And that is excellent!!! In the boat world, we often times see companies producing speakers with nominal impedances that when parrelled, bring the nominal load under 2ohms with dips even lower which create havoc with an amplifier. How an amplifier fails to operate and under what conditions is very important. There is no doubt that Class D brings some great things to the table. I totally agree. But to categorically place all class AB amplifiers as junk in comparison is absurd. It's like comparing NASCAR to F1 Euro. Lots of technology in both races but completely different. Sometimes the best solution is marrying the two technologies together... we see multi channel AB amplifiers with D class mono amplifiers. Why do companies do this? Cost vrs performance. It really depends on what people want to pay for.. cha ching.

Full disclosure:, I write this to bring perspective. Not to take a Brand position. Most of you know I work for a mobile audio company. And those that attended the CES show in Jan, probably know that the company I work for will offer both platforms in 2013. Even as thats the case, all class D designs give us are more tools in the tool belt audio configuration wise. So please lets not make this a he says this because of that conversation. There truly are some fantastic class A/AB amps on the market, home and car and marine. In fact, I think my favorite all time amp is a Audison Thesis. At 13K a piece, I'll take zero...but oh man is it amazing. All of this is relative folks....

-Brian

EarmarkMarine
02-13-2013, 05:22 PM
Brian,
The thread got derailed specifically in post #17. Prior to that, opinions flowed freely without reprisal. Mike Mandley specifically called out the posts of two other members, MLA and myself. But when opinions differed from one brand's agenda, he felt threatened and compelled to address that. He could have given his own opinion without referencing or contradicting the posts of others. That is precisely what triggers these exchanges. The other action that typically triggers these exchanges, certainly in my case, is when one manufacturer comments on another manufacturers products or targets the lead dog to build his own brand awareness. The veiled digs can be so obvious and transparent. Just look at post #27 that is loaded with digs to alternate products and technologies.
Now you come on here and do exactly the same. You criticize the technical nature and content of other posts then go on your own technical rant....that by the way has no substance....just random bits of info.
I stated from the beginning that there are different levels of quality within all topologies. It is in print beforehand. Also, don't dispute things without offering a specific fact. I have supporting facts if you want to question something specific beyond a general criticism. Like for instance, Prosound. My coworker, Odin, has done live acoustic engineering for years in the evenings and weekends. He also plays in a successful band. My son has a degree in acoustic enginnering, has his own studio and works in the live sound equipment industry. I'm exposed to a lot.
Now what is particularly misleading is that Class D amplifiers lose efficiency at lower impedances. Is that true? Asolutely! As an example, they can drop from 84 percent efficiency at 4-ohms to 71 perecent efficiency at 2-ohms. However, what wasn't mentioned is that Class AB drops from an inherently low efficiency in the same way as the impedance drops. In fact, since the bias applied to Class AB amplifiers is constant, they can dip down to 20 percent efficiency at very low output power levels. So please share the entire story rather than placing a self-serving spin on it.
We have the luxury of electronics switchers. I would like a few local Dallas members to do a blindfold test between a good Class AB and a good Class D amplifier to see if they can detect which is which. If the novice cannot hear a difference on far superior speakers than you will ever find in a boat, then we should be able to put this to rest. So step up and accept that challenge please. You hand pick the blindfolded guys and I'll videotape the results. I'm excited!
Which Class D amplifiers knock out reception in cars? I know of some Class AB and H amplifiers that do knock out reception. Class D and Class AB often share the same type pulse width power supplies. Old school Class D amplifiers from a decade ago? Sure. Today with any of the brands that I am familiar with? Absolutely not. Man, that's just plain deceptive.
Class D stabilty issues at low imedances? Yeah, the Infinity amplifiers from a decade ago liked one narrow impedance range. The Exile Class D monoblocks are rated to 1-ohm. Again, those kind of statements are just plain deceptive to the core. Just designed to cast doubt.
Now let's start a new thread about authentic power specs. Who provides them and who does not.

David

mmandley
02-13-2013, 05:32 PM
Brian,
The thread got derailed specifically in post #17. Prior to that, opinions flowed freely without reprisal. Mike Mandley specifically called out the posts of two other members, MLA and myself. But when opinions differed from one brand's agenda, he felt threatened and compelled to address that. He could have given his own opinion without referencing or contradicting the posts of others. That is precisely what triggers these exchanges. The other action that typically triggers these exchanges, certainly in my case, is when one manufacturer comments on another manufacturers products or targets the lead dog to build his own brand awareness. The veiled digs can be so obvious and transparent. Just look at post #27 that is loaded with digs to alternate products and technologies.
Now you come on here and do exactly the same. You criticize the technical nature and content of other posts then go on your own technical rant....that by the way has no substance....just random bits of info.
I stated from the beginning that there are different levels of quality within all topologies. It is in print beforehand. Also, don't dispute things without offering a specific fact. I have supporting facts if you want to question something specific beyond a general criticism. Like for instance, Prosound. My coworker, Odin, has done live acoustic engineering for years in the evenings and weekends. He also plays in a successful band. My son has a degree in acoustic enginnering, has his own studio and works in the live sound equipment industry. I'm exposed to a lot.
Now what is particularly misleading is that Class D amplifiers lose efficiency at lower impedances. Is that true? Asolutely! As an example, they can drop from 84 percent efficiency at 4-ohms to 71 perecent efficiency at 2-ohms. However, what wasn't mentioned is that Class AB drops from an inherently low efficiency in the same way as the impedance drops. In fact, since the bias applied to Class AB amplifiers is constant, they can dip down to 20 percent efficiency at very low output power levels. So please share the entire story rather than placing a self-serving spin on it.
We have the luxury of electronics switchers. I would like a few local Dallas members to do a blindfold test between a good Class AB and a good Class D amplifier to see if they can detect which is which. If the novice cannot hear a difference on far superior speakers than you will ever find in a boat, then we should be able to put this to rest. So step up and accept that challenge please. You hand pick the blindfolded guys and I'll videotape the results. I'm excited!
Which Class D amplifiers knock out reception in cars? I know of some Class AB and H amplifiers that do knock out reception. Class D and Class AB often share the same type pulse width power supplies. Old school Class D amplifiers from a decade ago? Sure. Today with any of the brands that I am familiar with? Absolutely not. Man, that's just plain deceptive.
Class D stabilty issues at low imedances? Yeah, the Infinity amplifiers from a decade ago liked one narrow impedance range. The Exile Class D monoblocks are rated to 1-ohm. Again, those kind of statements are just plain deceptive to the core. Just designed to cast doubt.
Now let's start a new thread about authentic power specs. Who provides them and who does not.

David

Dave i didnt call out anyone in that post. I said you both Know a Lot about the AMPs and you push the D class amps a lot.

This is true.

I wasnt trying to start anything negative by that post.

I was simply stating my opinion on what i think i like better as an amp.

Im sorry everytime i post something in Audio you think im trying to attack you.

Frankly i dont say anything intentionaly argumentive, or bad about you MLA or anyone on this forum.

Those people who dont have the big dollar system i treat exactly like those who do.

I think you just think im always trying to attack you because i feel like everytime i post in Audio you DO ATTACK me.

Me and you have gone round and round, and i have told you and MLA in PMs my intent is not to battle you guys. I purposly dont promote, or demote any brands on this site.

KG's Supra24
02-13-2013, 05:38 PM
I think you take comments to personally. I don't think anyone is attacking you, just trying to make sure accurate info is in the threads.

You consistently post inaccurate or biased information.

MLA
02-13-2013, 05:42 PM
Nobody has stated that Class-A/B is bad, garbage, junk, etc, but yes, the technology is outdated. Is there an audible difference between mobile class-a/b and D, not by my ears as ive heard the same speakers driven by both types of amps in the same environment.

Carburated engines are awesome, but the technology is outdated and EFI clearly has its advantages in fuel mileage, emissions and driveability. I love to drive around town in an old hot rod, but when its time to take a long trip on the highway, its not carb's classic i pull out of the garage. If someone looking at two similar boats, one EFI and the other Carb'd, I would suggest the EFI with out hesitation and of reasons to stand behind that rec. It doesnt mean carbs are bad, its just that EFI is better. And that whats being stated here in RE to amp power supplies.

DVD's are great, but its outdated and going away as Blu-Ray gains ground. I still have a DVD surround, but I also have a game console for the Blu-Rays I buy. When I bought a disk player for the shop, I got one that plays both.

With all we ask of our marine audio gear, yet we are limited to a battery bank and alternator while on the water for a day, it is a completely, 100% relevant topic to have when someone is designing a boat stereo system. Once they are informed about the differences and advantages, they can then decide which route they want to go.

dusty2221
02-13-2013, 05:51 PM
For the love of all things Audio, please do not lock this thread.

EarmarkMarine
02-13-2013, 05:54 PM
Mike,
I quote from your post, "There are sooo many out there, MLA and Dave both know amps very very well and push the Digi amps pretty hard on here. It sometimes surprises me they do though,..."
Check out that final sentence. It looks like kinda of a passive/aggressive thing. It would appear that you were stepping on my post as you did mention me by name. I could be wrong?
With certainty, I did not reference you until you referenced my name. Prior to that we offered independent opinions freely.

Mike,
You reached out to me privately and posted up before I had a chance to respond privately. I did respond though. Take me up on my offer and we will fix this.

David

mmandley
02-13-2013, 06:07 PM
Dave you read into that wrong

I was saying it surprises me that you push the digi amps so hard compared to I never see you push AB amps and there is a lot of good high end ones out there.

I will take you up on threw offer to email you but id rather talk to you so communication isn't like this.

Maybe I should just stop by next time I'm in Texas.

@KG my intentions are never to post inaccurate info. Sorry you or if anyone else feels this way about my posts.

Ilk back off this thread and back out of audio threads as well.
I have backed out of audio allot so these things don't happen.

I agree moderators don't need to lock the thread

jpetty3023
02-13-2013, 06:14 PM
For the love of all things Audio, please do not lock this thread.

lmao, I don't know anything close to anything about stereo stuff but I love these threads


sent from my ipad2 via a wireless network which usually sucks

EarmarkMarine
02-13-2013, 07:29 PM
"Dave....Maybe I should just stop by next time I'm in Texas."

Mike,
That would be awesome to see you in Texas. You are welcome anytime. Is there any chance while you are here that you would be interested in particiapating in the amplifier blindfold test? Let me know.

David

mmandley
02-13-2013, 07:33 PM
"Dave....Maybe I should just stop by next time I'm in Texas."

Mike,
That would be awesome to see you in Texas. You are welcome anytime. Is there any chance while you are here that you would be interested in particiapating in the amplifier blindfold test? Let me know.

David

Absolutly, i will be down in August for the Moomba Texas Jam. I will be flying into Dallas.

dusty2221
02-13-2013, 07:52 PM
I cant think of one reason why I should not participate in this test, if the invite is extended.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

kaneboats
02-13-2013, 08:29 PM
I think that is a great idea. We've got some very opinionated folks on here who each have at least a bit of knowledge. Sometimes the stating of opinions can sound like stating of fact. Sometimes people overstate. Sometimes they perceive a slight or attack where none is intended. Healthy debate is good. We don't have to agree but we have to respect each other and the right to air our opinions even when they seem a bit ridiculous to others. So meet up and have a beer and laugh it off before we ban each of you guys for a month for whining! :o

rdlangston13
02-13-2013, 09:29 PM
I want to participate! PICK ME!

Then afterwards we a can all go to Sneaky Petes and have some beer and Crawfish!

dusty2221
02-13-2013, 09:31 PM
If all goes to plan, I will have my boat in tow for a tune and tweak session.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

jmvotto
02-13-2013, 10:39 PM
Holy Sh$t batman! Why does a simply question from an original post get so friggin derailed in technical speak with bashing, each other. I had to look up and make sure I was not on WW..

we can all get long with different surf boards, wakeboards, skis tubes etc. we ll have our favorite brands, but when an audio section comes up with a few brands that compete head to head it tends to get ugly.

few years ago I got some advice on upgrades from the 07 kenwoods to the Polk DB cabin speakers, best 150 bucks I spent on the boat. No bashing then why now.

Guy wants an opinion on a system that he has kinda picked out, and we go way overboard to the Nth degree. He told us he didn't have audio experience and did not trust his local shop, so he asked our advice and we give him this thread of tech speak and brand bashing. ( between the lines)


I don't get it, this form used to be helpful but certainly looking like WW lately, must be the winter blues I guess


ps post your audio brand loyalty in you signature just because .....

KG's Supra24
02-13-2013, 11:12 PM
Perhaps the controversy has less to with brand loyalty and more to do with accurate information :cool:

Just call it coincidence that the posts that push a brand the hardest happen to be the most inaccurate.

My disclaimer ... I have wet sounds, Jl, bullet, and alpine gear in my boat and have not talked to an audio dealer within the last year.

Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk 2

beat taco
02-13-2013, 11:37 PM
If you want to copy Richard Clark put up $10,000! :)

jfox8807
02-14-2013, 01:43 AM
I think the only thing we can all agree on is that we're all gonna disagree on something at some time

pprior
02-14-2013, 08:53 AM
I like accurate information. Onward and forward!

kaneboats
02-14-2013, 09:57 AM
I think the only thing we can all agree on is that we're all gonna disagree on something at some time

I disagree. Oh, wait a minute.

tarheelskier
02-14-2013, 10:27 AM
Wow this is fun. Look forward to the 2013 "blind amp test" challenge results!

rdlangston13
02-14-2013, 01:15 PM
So if one has a constant ringing in yet their ears could it possibly skew the results of the blind sound test?


Sent from my iPhone

EarmarkMarine
02-14-2013, 01:21 PM
Or we could get Tommy, the deaf, dumb and blind kid, and dictate the results to 'em.

wolfeman131
02-14-2013, 01:32 PM
heard that kid sure plays a mean pinball

rdlangston13
02-14-2013, 02:32 PM
So what you're saying is my opinion is now void?


Sent from my iPhone

EarmarkMarine
02-14-2013, 04:03 PM
Not at all, I'm just saying that I'll give you your opinion when I'm ready.

MLA
02-14-2013, 04:33 PM
^^^^ You sound like my wife now :wink:

EarmarkMarine
02-14-2013, 05:46 PM
^^^^ HEY I ressemble that remark!

freshturk
02-27-2013, 08:13 PM
well after hearing all the various opinions on here i decided that I probably had not done my due diligence in research nd talked to a lot of people way more knowledgeable than myself and finally bought my components. Ended up getting the best of both worlds in that I was able to get some great pieces with a sub all for a fantastic price. Came in way under budget which is always awesome. Special thanks to Brian @exile, David and Odin @earmark and jfox8807 here on the forums.

Ended up with
2 pair rev 8
2 pair xs-65i
JL 10W0V3-4
ws syn2
ws HT1
ws-420
using the stock kicker amp to power the inboats.

jfox8807
02-28-2013, 05:55 AM
well after hearing all the various opinions on here i decided that I probably had not done my due diligence in research nd talked to a lot of people way more knowledgeable than myself and finally bought my components. Ended up getting the best of both worlds in that I was able to get some great pieces with a sub all for a fantastic price. Came in way under budget which is always awesome. Special thanks to Brian @exile, David and Odin @earmark and jfox8807 here on the forums.

Ended up with
2 pair rev 8
2 pair xs-65i
JL 10W0V3-4
ws syn2
ws HT1
ws-420
using the stock kicker amp to power the inboats.

looks like a good set up man. that should really rock out and do ya good. gald i could be helpful. if ya need anything else hit me up. good luck with the install

EarmarkMarine
02-28-2013, 11:52 AM
well after hearing all the various opinions on here i decided that I probably had not done my due diligence in research nd talked to a lot of people way more knowledgeable than myself and finally bought my components. Ended up getting the best of both worlds in that I was able to get some great pieces with a sub all for a fantastic price. Came in way under budget which is always awesome. Special thanks to Brian @exile, David and Odin @earmark and jfox8807 here on the forums.

Ended up with
2 pair rev 8
2 pair xs-65i
JL 10W0V3-4
ws syn2
ws HT1
ws-420
using the stock kicker amp to power the inboats.,

Hey Ryan,
Thank you, and don't be a stranger through the installation process.

David

KG's Supra24
02-28-2013, 11:58 AM
Awesome! However, I'm sure you know how it goes ... pics or it didn't happen!

freshturk
02-28-2013, 05:42 PM
wish i could post up pics but im getting an error everytime i try to

kaneboats
03-01-2013, 10:10 AM
Try using "paint" to shrink your photos down a bit. Today's digicams take very high resolution pics and the files are way bigger than they need to be to post on here. I open them in paint and shrink to about 30% and then save (separately so I keep my high res version). They post fine and still look great on a screen. Good luck! PM me if this doesn't work.

KG's Supra24
03-01-2013, 10:13 AM
Another option is using a third party site to host them. I use photobucket but I think the most popular is imgur. From there you can copy and past an IMG link.

philwsailz
03-01-2013, 01:12 PM
16970

Fun thread to read....

Phil
Kicker

pprior
03-01-2013, 06:12 PM
I want to hear more about the SMD DD-1

EarmarkMarine
03-01-2013, 09:10 PM
I want to hear more about the SMD DD-1

I have the SMD DD-1, plus a handheld Oscope, plus a 1/24th octave RTA, plus a phase detector, plus just about every tuning tool there is.
The SMD is a very convenient tool to use in order to identify clipping at any stage of the signal path. However, with one acception. When you get to the final step, you do not want to feed a sinewave at 0dB into a fullrange coaxial. That won't happen for very long. Another thing to keep in mind is that a SMD does one thing. It determines the maximum clean signal. It can't balance high and low pass. At the end of the process, you can't beat real music and an educated ear for dialing the system in.

David

David

jfox8807
03-10-2013, 04:19 PM
I also have the dd-1 and soon the cc-1 both are awesome tools. It can make a world of difference if you don't know how to really tune by ear. I would highly recommend one its rather simple to use. Anyone can pm me if they wanna know more or if ur local come by will set up ur stuff and u can decide for ur self

jfox8807
03-10-2013, 04:30 PM
Also for those of u who don't want to spend that kind of money on a piece of test equ. You could try and app it's made by focal it's called "focal teach hd" . Great tool helps u know what to listen for and what it means when u hear it. I'm pretty sure it's free as well. I would recommend doing it on wifi because its a rather large app.