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chawk610
02-20-2013, 07:15 AM
Hey guys, what is that thing you can wire to your system to control the subs, towers, cabins indivudually? Would it work with stock HU?

moombadaze
02-20-2013, 07:32 AM
zld ?, from Exile

wolfeman131
02-20-2013, 08:11 AM
Wetsounds 420

http://www.wetsounds.com/pages/products/WS-420.html

Exile zld (you can read Dusty's review before looking at below)

http://exileaudio.com/store/index.php/install-accessories/add-ons/zone-controller-preamp.html

Krypt

http://www.bulletlines.com/Krypt-KMA-42EQ-Wakeboard-EQ-p/4555.htm

MLA
02-20-2013, 08:58 AM
The WS-420 and Kicker ZXM-RLC are a true independent zone volume control. A traditional automotive-based EQ will use fade. This method divides the output level, where as the WS-420 offers 5V out for each chnl and the ZXM zone controller offers a full 9V line level output on each chnl. The WS-420 is two interdependent 4 band Parametric EQ

Just some differences to consider.

EarmarkMarine
02-20-2013, 09:27 AM
Hey guys, what is that thing you can wire to your system to control the subs, towers, cabins indivudually? Would it work with stock HU?

An EQ or line driver/controller will work with any source unit that has a single set RCA preout....although an RCA out isn't necessarily required.
Those that have a basic source unit with modest voltage and who are running a full system with external amplification can add an EQ or line driver/controller to put off replacement of their source unit indefinitely.

If you are on a budget you could get an EQ as cheap as $39 like an Absolute EQ400 for example. There are tons of options based on this common car stereo platform from the early '90s when amplifiers still had no internal crossovers.

Or, look at the fully loaded, more sophisticated Wetsounds WS420 EQ/PA system.

If you want to keep things simple, the Kicker or JL Audio line drivers provide convenient zone controls flushed into or under the driver's dash at your fingertips. However, all the active electronics remain with the source unit and amplifiers on the port side. So you are not extending the signal path or running long to and from RCAs (four sets to be exact). These line drivers operate by true remote control.

David

chawk610
02-20-2013, 09:30 AM
I think I left out the word Volume. Control the volumes individually.

chawk610
02-20-2013, 09:33 AM
Wetsounds 420

http://www.wetsounds.com/pages/products/WS-420.html

Exile zld (you can read Dusty's review before looking at below)

http://exileaudio.com/store/index.php/install-accessories/add-ons/zone-controller-preamp.html

Krypt

http://www.bulletlines.com/Krypt-KMA-42EQ-Wakeboard-EQ-p/4555.htm

Ahhh, yes, the ZLD. Are they hard to hook up?

lewisb13
02-20-2013, 09:40 AM
They are super easy to hook up. Next time I'm near my boat I'll take some pics. Its three wires. Simple.

chawk610
02-20-2013, 09:42 AM
Thank you, I was just looking on the Exile Site. Looks do-able. I reckon I'll head over to the blood bank and try to danate 200.00 worth of blood. :)

EarmarkMarine
02-20-2013, 10:29 AM
Another good option is the Clarion 7-band EQ. Pretty much all the same bells and whistles with an expanded EQ. The EQ, supply B+ and ground, remote lead, fusing at the source and four long RCA cables would run about $100. So about half the blood.

David

chawk610
02-20-2013, 10:49 AM
I like the ZLD, it looks like you can control volume levels for all zones. I think it will be worht the dough.

MLA
02-20-2013, 11:17 AM
I like the ZLD, it looks like you can control volume levels for all zones. I think it will be worht the dough.

No, it does not. It uses front/rear fade like you will find on a head-unit or any other automotive based EQ that you can find for half the cost. It just relabels it tower/in-boat.

The Tsunami RCA701-20 RCA cables that come with the "package" can be had for $9.00 each. Look at the features and functions of these devises and you will see they are all the same, just different sized knobs and placement on the front.

KG's Supra24
02-20-2013, 11:27 AM
I used Pac LC1 knobs for a year or so to adjust the volume if you are looking to save coin.

I can't remember the kicker amp you got and if it's dedicated to the tower but it might actually have a line control as well.

All the options mentioned above should accomplish the task, in some form or function, of having control of tower vs in boats volume.

kaneboats
02-20-2013, 11:31 AM
Yup, Brian once suggested PAC LC1 to me for a budget install. Example below (although it would take at least 2 if not 3 of them). Also an example of a Clarion unit that I have seen guys running:

http://www.amazon.com/PAC-Remote-Amplifier-Level-Controller/dp/B0002J226O/ref=sr_1_1?s=electronics&ie=UTF8&qid=1361377816&sr=1-1&keywords=PAC+LC1

http://www.amazon.com/Clarion-EQS746-Graphic-Equalizer-Crossover/dp/B000EZV3T8

EarmarkMarine
02-20-2013, 11:54 AM
Here is the concern with the PAC...if you have but a single RCA output on an entry level source unit that is located on the port side then you are having to divide that already lite voltage two or three times plus running 17 ft. 'to' and 17 ft. 'from' cables for a total of 34 feet. So in some applications it is a good remedy and a bad choice in others.
Also, while inexpensive, take two of those plus the three long cables plus 'Y's, and suddenly the alternative 4-channel, dual-zone line driver/controller isn't much more and provides a real audible benefit.
So I prefer either the line driver/controller or an EQ whenever the source unit is on the port side or whenever you have a source unit with a single set preout.

David

KG's Supra24
02-20-2013, 12:24 PM
There are way more options than I thought after a quick google search. The ones I've seen used most on here are the ZLD, WS, Krypt, Clarion, and Pac LC1's. I'm not 100% happy with my Krypt but I've seen good reviews of all the rest from people on here.

Didn't see any reviews for this product but came across it. Looks like it has most of the functions that have been mentioned here and the price is pretty good. I don't know anymore than that, though. No clue on performance or function in the boat situation.

http://www.absoluteusa.com/mobile-electronics/item/eq-400.html

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA16R0CD4185

chawk610
02-20-2013, 02:05 PM
The Kicker is 99.00, that is looking alright. The XZM350 I am using powers both the sub and towers. It has (2) different controls on one amp.

MLA
02-20-2013, 02:40 PM
With the sub on chnls 3/4 and the amp set to low-pas for those chnls, the optional Kicker ZXRC will control the sub level. It will not control full-range speaker with the amp set to Hi-pass or off though.

rdlangston13
02-21-2013, 12:21 AM
I've had both the wetsounds 420 and the exile ZLD. I think the ZLD is easier to use but the 420 does give you more options for adjustment of bass, mid bass, mids, and highs (you can set up the tower and cabins seperate, on the ZLD your adjustment for these applies for both cabin and tower.

I found I never used the PA on the 420 and being able to retain sub volume while rocking the towers is one thing I like about the ZLD. Both units feel quality and I did not feel that one sounded worse than the other.


Sent from my iPhone

KG's Supra24
02-21-2013, 01:16 AM
Both units feel quality and I did not feel that one sounded worse than the other.
Sent from my iPhone

Agreed, I've read both are top notch. Definitely the two go to ones. My krypt has never let me down but i think it is introducing some "noise" into the line.


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

rdlangston13
02-21-2013, 02:24 AM
Agreed, I've read both are top notch. Definitely the two go to ones. My krypt has never let me down but i think it is introducing some "noise" into the line.


Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2

I've had some "noise" with both. I belie in my case this is more due to my sub box design. The hole in the hump in front of the drivers seat has been reduced to the size of a quarter or so causing everything that goes thru there to be majorly compressed together. RCAs, accessory power cable, and everything else.

I dunno, audio experts, does this seem like it could be the cause?


Sent from my iPhone

EarmarkMarine
02-21-2013, 02:54 AM
With the Wetsounds WS420 you CAN retain sub volume while rocking the tower. If you want tower and sub only without any or reduced in-boat contribution then it is a simple $13 LC-1 addition. Or, you can use the gain on the paragraphic bass control to boost the bass as you attenuate the in-boat speakers. In either case, it is just a matter of understanding the Wetsounds' full capabilities.
Then add in the features and build quality only found on the Wetsounds EQ.
Many consider the PA invaluable when training.
Dual zone equalizers (two complete equalizers in one chassis) so you can custom tailor either zone without messing up the other.
Build quality is a huge factor with the Wetsounds EQ plus the multiple revisions that are a result of marine experience. Consider these qualities exclusive to the Wetsounds EQ:
Encapsulated front panel switches. Otherwise a prime location for water damage.
Sealed chassis on top. Ditto. One of the many revisions from experience.
Fully encased front panel pots. Ditto.
Rear chassis-mounted RCA jacks. Would you buy an amplifier where there was no strain relief on the RCA jacks and the heavy connecting RCA cables, with the only thing holding the jacks in place is the solder on the circuit board which also must conduct the signal? Encountering chop in a boat is very different than hitting the occasional pothole in a vehicle.


David

jmvotto
02-21-2013, 06:23 AM
I have had all three, ws on the old boat, Krypt on the new boat , zld waiting for spring to be installed.
I likes the ws a lot and ish I would have kept it, Krypt I got a deal on so could not pass it up, works just fine like the ws, want to try the zld to have more effective control over the system as the I should be able to set it and forget while out on the water. I find myself adjusting the previous two all the time tweaking the system. That can be good and bad.

my .02

EarmarkMarine
02-21-2013, 09:25 AM
[QUOTE=rdlangston13;208665]I've had some "noise" with both. I belie in my case this is more due to my sub box design. The hole in the hump in front of the drivers seat has been reduced to the size of a quarter or so causing everything that goes thru there to be majorly compressed together. RCAs, accessory power cable, and everything else.

I dunno, audio experts, does this seem like it could be the cause?

David,
It is definitely possible for noise to be induced through the air with crossing cables but unlikely unless the cables are in close proximity and in parallel over some distance. This type of noise is generally spikes and spurious interference, rather than hiss.
Hiss (known as 'thermal noise'), in varying degress, usually accompanies any external signal processor. The biggest cause of hiss is a roller coaster ride in the gain structure. An EQ must significantly reduce the incoming voltage in order to make it managable for the internal low level IC chips to manipulate the signal. Then it multiplies the gain at its output. With each up and down or down and up the noise floor tends to raise. And HLCDs certainly do nothing to disquise the hiss.
Some have placed a small line driver between a weaker source unit output and the EQ input or between an ipod-direct into an EQ with a near total elimination of audible hiss. But careful not to saturate the EQ input.

David

jmvotto
02-21-2013, 11:34 AM
in other words adjust the gain down on the eq to eliminate hiss and raise the gains on the amps to raise ouput...

dusty2221
02-21-2013, 11:47 AM
Seems like I've seen it needs to be opposite of that process JM. I can't recall.

David?

EarmarkMarine
02-21-2013, 11:57 AM
in other words adjust the gain down on the eq to eliminate hiss and raise the gains on the amps to raise ouput...

No sir. That could contribute to the roller coaster gain ride and actually cause more noise.
The EQ input gain is set related to two things only....the amount of clean voltage exiting the source unit and the amount of clean voltage exiting the EQ. One impacts the other. The amplifier input gain is then set according to the amount of clean power exiting the amplifier. in every sequential step of the process you are attempting to balance the maximum potential dynamic range and power with the noise floor.

David

viking
02-21-2013, 11:58 AM
I've used 2 JL Audio in-line driver controls for the last few seasons. Simple, inexpensive, and effective. Have one for my towers and one for my sub. Both knobs under the dash right at driver's fingertips.

Only thing I wish I had was an HSE Revolution to automatically adjust the volume (ya...good luck on that one) :(

EarmarkMarine
02-21-2013, 12:07 PM
One more detail worth mentioning...One of the keys to creating a well-tuned system with low noise is to avoid placing too much impetus for gain multiplication on any single gain stage of any single component in the signal path. Balance is huge.

Odin, one of my coworkers, has been doing live sound engineering for years on the weekends and in the evenings. He is so dialed in on the process of managing gain structure. Just imagine what a cluster convergence it is when every new band rolls in with different mics, different gear and different preferences but without knowing the environmental conditions in a particualr venue interfacing with different gear. Boats are a breeze after that.

David

rdlangston13
02-21-2013, 03:36 PM
Ok this maybe be some more helpful stuff to my issue. Noise only exist when the boat is running and is even louder when I run the blower


Sent from my iPhone

bergermaister
02-21-2013, 03:36 PM
I would love to know why the design engineers of all 3 main prods mentioned (Krypt, ZLD, WS420) went and put the gain adjustments on top of the units rather than on the bottom. Making any adjustments after install is a royal PITA because of the mounting bracketry wizardry that has to come apart in order to drop the thing down and access the adjustments. It's easier for me to climb into my compartment to adjust the amps than in it is to drop down the EQ to adjust gains.

Why not put those on the bottom instead?

http://img.ymlp.com/bulletlines_6281.gif

http://b.vimeocdn.com/ts/280/899/280899858_640.jpg

http://images.wakeside.com/alt2_wet08_ws420-zoom.jpg

KG's Supra24
02-21-2013, 03:57 PM
^^^^ This x 100. It's a serious pita.

MLA
02-21-2013, 05:31 PM
David,

Knowing that the noise is present when the engine and blower are running is good info. In my experience, most calls I get or boats that come in with a hum/hise type noise when the engine is running and have a dual battery bank, almost always leads back to where the head-unit/source unit, obtain their B+. Its usually battery A and the amps are drawing from battery B. Other cases, theres an EQ or similar that may have its B+ run to the same battery as the amps, but its GND is grounded to the helm BUSS. Even though the boats entire ground plane goes back the battery bank and engine block, we sometimes find the need to relocate that EQ ground over directly to the battery and an amp's GND lug. Next up would be the gains, whether its and EQ or an amp, if they are too high, normal noise in the system can be amplified to a point of being audible.

I would start there, then we can did deeper if needed.

MLA
02-21-2013, 05:32 PM
Thats a first gen WS-420. havent seen one in about 4 years. The gains are fixed (set at the factory) and no holes exist now.

KG's Supra24
02-21-2013, 06:24 PM
So what I'm hearing is I need to swap my Krypt for the WS unit.

jmvotto
02-21-2013, 07:52 PM
Seems like I've seen it needs to be opposite of that process JM. I can't recall.

David?

Oops I got it bassakwards.

jmvotto
02-21-2013, 07:55 PM
So what I'm hearing is I need to swap my Krypt for the WS unit.

If the krypt sounds fine I wouldn't not spend the 299 on ws, if its gone bad then sure thing.

E4NASH
02-21-2013, 08:15 PM
If the krypt sounds fine I wouldn't not spend the 299 on ws, if its gone bad then sure thing.

$299? You can get those all day long for $250.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

EarmarkMarine
02-21-2013, 09:04 PM
Berg,
As MLA noted, that was the first gen WS EQ. Wetsounds provided rubber inserts to seal the holes but after owners used the gains they often did not re-install the inserts. This became the number one entry point for water. So Wetsounds eliminated the externally available option. While they fixed that they introduced protected switches on the face and cured another corrosion issue. There are numerous other revisions and refinements that followed.
This is a single sided circuit board (all components on the top side) with limited real estate and very dense coverage so if you are going to include adjustments they must be topside, on the back panel or front panel. Underneath is not an option.

David

EarmarkMarine
02-21-2013, 09:18 PM
Ok this maybe be some more helpful stuff to my issue. Noise only exist when the boat is running and is even louder when I run the blower


Sent from my iPhone

David,
MLA is correct in his assessment of your noise.
I can give you a sequential step-by-step presciption to isolate and confirm the noise source. Once you isolate the cause the fix is a walk in the park. No more specualtion. Noise is gone.
David

bergermaister
02-21-2013, 09:48 PM
Berg,
As MLA noted, that was the first gen WS EQ. Wetsounds provided rubber inserts to seal the holes but after owners used the gains they often did not re-install the inserts. This became the number one entry point for water. So Wetsounds eliminated the externally available option. While they fixed that they introduced protected switches on the face and cured another corrosion issue. There are numerous other revisions and refinements that followed.
This is a single sided circuit board (all components on the top side) with limited real estate and very dense coverage so if you are going to include adjustments they must be topside, on the back panel or front panel. Underneath is not an option.

David

I have a Krypt for the time being and it does have the little rubber plugs - however EITHER front or back locations would be way better! Kind of thinking the same thing with the printed wiring diagrams on the body of it. Does me no good when they're on top facing the back of the gauge cluster and I don't have a user manual nearby.

It looked really cool coming out of the box but that was it.

jmvotto
02-21-2013, 10:05 PM
$299? You can get those all day long for $250.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

e4nash,
lm sorry I just quoted msrp from the following sites at 299.
wetsounds, earmark, amazon, and monstertower

yes I found a bunch on eBay for around 250.


i believe most bought the Krypt for 79 a little over a year ago on a big sale fwiw.

rdlangston13
02-21-2013, 10:12 PM
David,
MLA is correct in his assessment of your noise.
I can give you a sequential step-by-step presciption to isolate and confirm the noise source. Once you isolate the cause the fix is a walk in the park. No more specualtion. Noise is gone.
David

Ok thanks. I am however pretty confident that I wired the head unit and eq power and grounds back to the same battery the as the stereo. I may be wrong tho and I will double check Tuesday hopefully.


Sent from my iPhone

philwsailz
02-22-2013, 03:39 PM
One more detail worth mentioning...One of the keys to creating a well-tuned system with low noise is to avoid placing too much impetus for gain multiplication on any single gain stage of any single component in the signal path. Balance is huge.

Odin, one of my coworkers, has been doing live sound engineering for years on the weekends and in the evenings. He is so dialed in on the process of managing gain structure. Just imagine what a cluster convergence it is when every new band rolls in with different mics, different gear and different preferences but without knowing the environmental conditions in a particualr venue interfacing with different gear. Boats are a breeze after that.

David

Unity gain..... From the mic or instrument amp, to the compressor, to the mixer, out on several effects loops, to the EQ, another Compressor, and then to the amps. I forget a few steps too, but how many gain stages is that?

Bottom line, the quietest system, (from a noise standpoint) is where EVERY single piece clips at the same time. Tough to do for sure! That is what we call Unity Gain.

I worked pro sound for years as a local engineer for major touring acts.... Learned years ago the hardest you work are with the local club bands. You are constantly adjusting everything... Get with a pro act and the system seems to literally run itself..... Two of the best I have ever worked with ironically were also the oldest... Peter Noone from Herman's Hermits and Gary Pucket from the Union Gap...

David is right, after doing pro-sound for nights on end for literally years, a boat system is pretty darned easy....