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smorris7
10-30-2013, 05:49 PM
Anyone know anything about the big announcement from Indmar on 11-05-2013.
http://www.indmar.com/Experience/Announcement.aspx

moombadaze
10-30-2013, 06:32 PM
that thing got a HEMI in it? :o


No idea myself

New Guy
10-30-2013, 06:54 PM
I'm pretty sure that Ford is getting back in the marine industry.

KG's Supra24
10-30-2013, 06:54 PM
Maybe Ford motors? I've also seen a lot of people that want a diesel option.

Link to another thread ....

http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=800350

sandm
10-30-2013, 08:41 PM
I'm pretty sure that Ford is getting back in the marine industry.

that would not be a positive. as much as I don't mind ford, compare prices for chevy 350 parts and ford 351 parts. repair bills on boats as they get older just went up by 20% :(

have heard good things about the new 5.0 coyote engine tho.

New Guy
10-30-2013, 08:44 PM
You start to mix turbos in the system and repair costs are through the roof. A marine engine isn't simple anymore but it will soon be dealer only repairs.

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EricU
10-30-2013, 10:51 PM
Anyone know anything about the big announcement from Indmar on 11-05-2013.
http://www.indmar.com/Experience/Announcement.aspx

I think it is a WOH! (Water Orientated Hybrid!)

Yep! 3,000 lbs of batteries strategically spread throughout the boat, another 700lb midship electric motor inbetween the now I-4 diesel and the V-Drive unit. Instant 100% torque, tank of fuel lasts all week and with the new Tige, MC etc coming in around the same price as a starter home in many parts of the country -- What's more money!!

And the real bonus -- Endless WS (or Exile, or Kicker) stereo sessions!!!!!

Those guys are FRICKEN genius!!!!

cornrickey
10-30-2013, 11:19 PM
I think it is a WOH! (Water Orientated Hybrid!)

Yep! 3,000 lbs of batteries strategically spread throughout the boat, another 700lb midship electric motor inbetween the now I-4 diesel and the V-Drive unit. Instant 100% torque, tank of fuel lasts all week and with the new Tige, MC etc coming in around the same price as a starter home in many parts of the country -- What's more money!!

And the real bonus -- Endless WS (or Exile, or Kicker) stereo sessions!!!!!

Those guys are FRICKEN genius!!!!

pure genius....

Wax
10-30-2013, 11:20 PM
Sounds awesome, can't wait to see it! Isn't there a company also already making completely electric boats?

powerstroke99
10-31-2013, 06:35 AM
Sounds awesome, can't wait to see it! Isn't there a company also already making completely electric boats?

http://epicboats.com/p-8298-232se.html

rbeckner27
11-01-2013, 10:33 AM
Folks on WW seem to think it is just that indmar is moving to the new GM block and discontinuing the age old 350, but I don't see that as a revolutionary advancement.

moombadaze
11-01-2013, 02:32 PM
Folks on WW seem to think it is just that indmar is moving to the new GM block and discontinuing the age old 350, but I don't see that as a revolutionary advancement.

agreed.

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Packman
11-05-2013, 02:54 PM
Well looks like Ford is back,6.2 liter engine. Hate to see GM go.

KG's Supra24
11-05-2013, 02:59 PM
Well looks like Ford is back,6.2 liter engine. Hate to see GM go.

Source? It seems wild that GM would go? Even with the addition of Ford.

kaneboats
11-05-2013, 03:06 PM
The announcement (whatever it is) is supposed to be at 5 PM, Pacific Time.

KG's Supra24
11-05-2013, 03:09 PM
The announcement (whatever it is) is supposed to be at 5 PM, Pacific Time.

I just saw that on facebook. See the boat it looks like they have at the show? 8)

https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1459147_10151986572487838_809804179_n.jpg

bergermaister
11-05-2013, 03:18 PM
Must be getting a lot of attention - the Indmar site is down at the moment...

Packman
11-05-2013, 03:20 PM
Sister and brother in law is at SEMA so they found out and called me.Looks like they'll be fazing out GM little by little.

Wax
11-05-2013, 05:45 PM
Come on Indmar, let's just go diesel and be done with it!

mmandley
11-05-2013, 05:52 PM
Man I have to say I'm not to happy the GM engine is being phased out. I'm a die hard Ford Truck guy but I've never been a big fan of their engines.

I just read it on the Tige site about its official on the engine change.

moombadaze
11-05-2013, 05:52 PM
"We invite you to experience history in the making"

going with Ford doesnt seam to me like such a deal-not history making anyway


Diesel-now that could be history making

Packman
11-05-2013, 06:01 PM
I think a lot of people have already told Indmar at the show they're not very happy.

KG's Supra24
11-05-2013, 06:05 PM
Wonder if that is the main reveal or perhaps an additional one? Also, where are ya'll seeing the GM being phased out?

I'm with daze, I'm not feeling like that is "history in the making".

Packman
11-05-2013, 06:07 PM
The Indmar rep to her they would be fazing out GM.

moombadaze
11-05-2013, 06:08 PM
The Indmar rep to her they would be fazing out GM.

Wonder why?

Packman
11-05-2013, 06:17 PM
She didn't say but I'll get her to ask if they're still close to Indmar's booth.

EricU
11-05-2013, 07:51 PM
She didn't say but I'll get her to ask if they're still close to Indmar's booth.

Probably why most big companies make most of their decisions - $$$$

I don't see such a big problem, it's not like today's modern gas motors are the same as the old carbureted V-8s from back in the day when I had hair.

Though for the prices that boats are going for these days, I wonder why they haven't developed a inline 6 or V-8 diesel running a small blower and set up for torque.

jsly04XLV
11-05-2013, 08:48 PM
6.2 Ford raptor engine. Not very revolutionary.

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Boonejeepin
11-05-2013, 08:56 PM
From the Ford booth....

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/06/hezuna3e.jpghttp://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/11/06/ugusu5y5.jpg

rbeckner27
11-05-2013, 09:03 PM
Wow I am just totally blown away at how revolutionary and how much the marine industry will never be the same.

NOT!!

What a joke.


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EricU
11-05-2013, 09:15 PM
6.2 Ford raptor engine. Not very revolutionary.

And every Telecom company has the "BEST" coverage.

Companies don't need to be the best, they just need to say they are the best.

How would you like to be in that meeting?;

(Boss) Bob! we just inked a deal with Ford to supply engines.
(Bob) Why did we do that?
(Boss) Because it is in our company mission statement that we are to provide the best service to our clients by continually adding value to our patron based performance product lineup, fueled by our people who are committed to delivering exceptional results and creating extraordinary innovative ideas to take us into the next century and beyond and to encourage employees' personal and professional growth, productivity, and physical and mental well-being, the mission of the our firm shall be to foster a worksite culture that encourages both personal and professional growth from within our own ranks...
(Bob) What!
(Boss) Just go write new g&#-D@^$ new ad campaign telling everyone that it is the best thing for them!
(Bob) Huh? How is changing engine manufactures better for the consumer?
(Boss) Why! Because it is! "Revolutionary!" yes "Revolutionary!" Bob! Use that term in the new ad campaign. That PEOPLE is genius inspiration and why I am CEO!
(Bob) Huh?
(Boss) Bob! Your Fired! FRANK!! GET IN HERE!!! I HAVE A REVOLUTIONARY IDEA!!...

jsly04XLV
11-05-2013, 09:20 PM
And every Telecom company has the "BEST" coverage.

Companies don't need to be the best, they just need to say they are the best.

How would you like to be in that meeting?;

(Boss) Bob! we just inked a deal with Ford to supply engines.
(Bob) Why did we do that?
(Boss) Because it is in our company mission statement that we are to provide the best service to our clients by continually adding value to our patron based performance product lineup, fueled by our people who are committed to delivering exceptional results and creating extraordinary innovative ideas to take us into the next century and beyond and to encourage employees' personal and professional growth, productivity, and physical and mental well-being, the mission of the our firm shall be to foster a worksite culture that encourages both personal and professional growth from within our own ranks...
(Bob) What!
(Boss) Just go write new g&#-D@^$ new ad campaign telling everyone that it is the best thing for them!
(Bob) Huh? How is changing engine manufactures better for the consumer?
(Boss) Why! Because it is! "Revolutionary!" yes "Revolutionary!" Bob! Use that term in the new ad campaign. That PEOPLE is genius inspiration and why I am CEO!
(Bob) Huh?
(Boss) Bob! Your Fired! FRANK!! GET IN HERE!!! I HAVE A REVOLUTIONARY IDEA!!...

Funny cause it's true!

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jstenger
11-05-2013, 10:00 PM
When will Moomba be putting the Ford engines in their boats? Is it possible that Moomba will switch to PCM?

KG's Supra24
11-05-2013, 10:08 PM
The SA (skiers choice) was the display boat. Seems most are saying gm is getting phased out of Indmar.

I'm not positive, but isnt PCM a marinizer like Indmar?

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mmandley
11-05-2013, 10:42 PM
http://www.indmar.com/Experience/Announcement.aspx

sandm
11-06-2013, 08:10 AM
pcm is a marinizer just like indmar and are offering the same engine lineups as indmar is currently. difference is in the software tweaks and I think some of that is on purpose to get a slightly different number to call it a 343 instead of a 340. my pcm 343 uses the same part numbers from autozone that my indmar ext340 used. both are using the same 550hp blown motor as the top offering.

I get the buzz from indmar as it's a marketing big deal for them, but for the end-user, I can't imagine anyone cares what engine powers their boat as long as it does so efficently and reliably. they'll probably spin this to show some added hp/tq numbers using the ford motor but any tuner could get an added 20hp out of the chevy motor if they wanted.

what's funny is that you will now see people that will never buy an indmar-powered boat due to having a ford block in it now.

mmandley
11-06-2013, 09:23 AM
I understand your view Sandm, my issue with the Ford block is its not as proven as the Chevy small blocks. Everyone knows the 350 small block is bullet proof. My main concern is how much are parts going to cost when you go to a Ford block vs Chevy.

I could care less about HP I'd rather them rank an engine with Torque for Wake Boats.

sandm
11-06-2013, 09:53 AM
agreed mike, but iirc, 15 years ago all these boats had the ford gt40 or 351 marine engine in them. somehow we all shifted to the gm block. betting as that took place there were lots of guys sitting around in boat showrooms bitching about losing ford blocks and how gm isn't proven in the towboat industry(imagine the message boards back then if they had been around).

at the end of the day, I would bet that indmar/ford have struck up a marriage that is financially positive for both companies and that's the reason for the switch. compare engine prices 5 years from now and bet the incentives for switching to ford are all gone and prices are back where they were or higher. to your point, ford engines have always been a tad higher both in initial cost and parts. guessing that's due to the volume of chevy engines produced and the aftermarket industry embracing that platform.

kaneboats
11-06-2013, 10:06 AM
Everybody stock up on extra solenoids. LOL.

Wax
11-06-2013, 10:08 AM
So...if they're going with Ford, why isn't the revolutionary announcement that they will be implementing a marinized version of the EcoBoost 3.5L V6 with twin turbo? Now, I'd consider that revolutionary; the EcoBoost has almost as much torque as the 6.2...not as much horsepower though, but much better fuel economy.

moombadaze
11-06-2013, 12:30 PM
.

what's funny is that you will now see people that will never buy an indmar-powered boat due to having a ford block in it now.

will haveing a ford block keep me from buying the next one, no. But if givin the choise between a Ford based engine or a Chevy based engine I would pick the Chevy.

kaneboats
11-06-2013, 12:50 PM
Bow ties, baby!

Suprahunter
11-06-2013, 12:51 PM
Unless the Ford engine is far and above superior to the GM I see it as a lose lose for everybody except maybe Ford. The dealer will have to double up on parts inventory or wait for special orders to arrive. The mechanics will have to learn a totally new system with all its problems to discover. The buyer will have to put up with everything associated with being new and differant and most likely pay more for it because of lower volume being produced. In 89 when I bought my Supra the GM 350 was an option even though I would rather push a Chevy than drive a ford I went with the Ford 351 . The main reason was {There is safety in numbers} better to have a common engine with expertise and parts available than to take a chance on the low production combo that most shops will only see once in a blue moon.

sandm
11-06-2013, 01:18 PM
^ and now we are moving back the other way.

I'm not a ford, chevy or dodge guy and don't care what's on the hood, but given a choice I'd take a gm engine for my boat based on the mention above on parts availability and knowledge to fix the engines..

on the ecoboost option.. if I had to guess, heat would kill that engine in a marine application. pulling a loaded wakeboat up on plane would turn the exhaust housings on those turbos to a glowing red. trying to teach a noob to wakeboard would generate an insane amount of heat in that enclosed compartment not to mention the potential of toasting the turbo bearings after whipping a tuber around or pulling a slalom skier and not letting them properly cool down before shutting the engine off.

mmandley
11-06-2013, 01:26 PM
You know i wonder if this stems from maybe GM wanting to stop mass production of the cast iron 350 block? Since the LS engine came out everyone buys them as an upgrade engine for there cars, and the factory only uses those engines as well for Camero and the trucks running 5.7s

Maybe this is more a move due to future supply?

Wax
11-06-2013, 01:59 PM
^ and now we are moving back the other way.

I'm not a ford, chevy or dodge guy and don't care what's on the hood, but given a choice I'd take a gm engine for my boat based on the mention above on parts availability and knowledge to fix the engines..

on the ecoboost option.. if I had to guess, heat would kill that engine in a marine application. pulling a loaded wakeboat up on plane would turn the exhaust housings on those turbos to a glowing red. trying to teach a noob to wakeboard would generate an insane amount of heat in that enclosed compartment not to mention the potential of toasting the turbo bearings after whipping a tuber around or pulling a slalom skier and not letting them properly cool down before shutting the engine off.

Hmm, I don't necessarily agree since the EcoBoost turbos are water/oil cooled. That engine can tow some serious weight...slap a 11k trailer behind that truck and those things would probably be under a similar load to a wake boat application. I would assume there has to be a reason why it's not used though, otherwise I would think it would be a pretty obvious choice to try and marinize it for the masses.

RickT
11-06-2013, 02:39 PM
You know i wonder if this stems from maybe GM wanting to stop mass production of the cast iron 350 block? Since the LS engine came out everyone buys them as an upgrade engine for there cars, and the factory only uses those engines as well for Camero and the trucks running 5.7s

Maybe this is more a move due to future supply?

And we have a winner.

rca
11-06-2013, 02:39 PM
You know i wonder if this stems from maybe GM wanting to stop mass production of the cast iron 350 block? Since the LS engine came out everyone buys them as an upgrade engine for there cars, and the factory only uses those engines as well for Camero and the trucks running 5.7s

Maybe this is more a move due to future supply?

I think it's a conspiracy that stems from Government Motors taking money from the fed. Just like they told them what brands they had to kill and how many dealerships they had to close I think they put a number on how many V8 blocks they could produce. Since GM still wants them for their high performance cars and trucks they price went up for Indmar. Ford not sucking up to the fed allowed them to produce what they want. Blah, blah, blah, CAFE, blah, blah.......

That's my thought, lol.

I prefer Ford anyway, bring it on.

sandm
11-06-2013, 02:56 PM
wax, most modern turbo's are water/oil cooled. the air movement keeps them from overheating. from my import days, watching an evo spin a dyno a few times, you see the exhaust housing getting red hot from lack of air movement. why most dyno's have huge floor fans to keep cold air moving over the intercooler and with the hood up, across the engine. that same engine in the confines of our current engine bays with no "real" air movement would be a recipe for disaster imo. the oil/water cooled part is only on the center bearings to keep them cool as most turbos spin at over 100,000rpms.
think to the big cigarette boats. turbo's offer "free" hp as they are essentially recycling spent energy where a supercharger has parasitic loss off the drive belt but you rarely ever see turbos on those boats as they run so hot where a supercharger generates very little heat.

Wax
11-06-2013, 03:15 PM
wax, most modern turbo's are water/oil cooled. the air movement keeps them from overheating. from my import days, watching an evo spin a dyno a few times, you see the exhaust housing getting red hot from lack of air movement. why most dyno's have huge floor fans to keep cold air moving over the intercooler and with the hood up, across the engine. that same engine in the confines of our current engine bays with no "real" air movement would be a recipe for disaster imo. the oil/water cooled part is only on the center bearings to keep them cool as most turbos spin at over 100,000rpms.
think to the big cigarette boats. turbo's offer "free" hp as they are essentially recycling spent energy where a supercharger has parasitic loss off the drive belt but you rarely ever see turbos on those boats as they run so hot where a supercharger generates very little heat.

Interesting info. I don't know enough about high perf boats to know if they used turbos or not, but what you're saying makes sense as to why they don't. I would have assumed there were reasons why we don't see turbos on boats, but I didn't realize they couldn't (or haven't) design around an airflow issue. I wonder if this is also why we haven't seen diesels for wake boat applications, as they might require a turbo also?

sandm
11-06-2013, 04:22 PM
don't know anything about diesels to speak to them. I would assume that heat would be an enemy as well.
I know mmandley has some knowledge on diesels and hopping them up. might be able to chime in on why we don't see them in wakeboats-yet or ever..

hearing a diesel pull a wakeboarder up would be quite strange.. not in a bad way, just strange :)

E4NASH
11-06-2013, 04:30 PM
Turbo timer...and put intercoolers on the front instead of docking lights with a check valve to prevent water intrusion...haha

mmandley
11-06-2013, 05:05 PM
don't know anything about diesels to speak to them. I would assume that heat would be an enemy as well.
I know mmandley has some knowledge on diesels and hopping them up. might be able to chime in on why we don't see them in wakeboats-yet or ever..

hearing a diesel pull a wakeboarder up would be quite strange.. not in a bad way, just strange :)

I personally would love to see more diesels in wake boats. Right now its an oditty and I don't see it being realistic anytime too soon.

Biggest issue with Diesel is they need a lot of Heat to be efficient. In my F350 for instance, my tuner defuels the truck 50% untill its running at 150 degrees, then slowly allows me more power as the truck warms up. Once it finally gets to operating temp of 195 i get 100% power.

In a diesel I think the boat would have to have a closed cooling system with some form of radiator to make the diesel run correctly, and with wake boats you are constatly starting and turning them off so they cool off really fast.

With Gas it can heat the engine up rather quickly, with in 5 minutes be at operating temp. My F350 can take 15-20 minutes of driving before it reaches operating temp.

Claudia's VW TDI does warm up rather quickly but 1.9L I4 is not a good engine for boats LOL.

jmvotto
11-06-2013, 05:32 PM
And we have a winner.

From the horses mouth right There, end of speculation debate!!!

Wax
11-06-2013, 07:52 PM
There was a used diesel xstar test boat (or so they say) for sale on eBay a while back for $50k. Must but be feasible if they tested it and only made one.

Sent from my fourth replacement Galaxy S2 using Tapatalk 4...

sandm
11-07-2013, 08:38 AM
someone else I remember was putting a yanmar in an epic hull. never did hear the outcome or any testing on it. I know they are pretty common in yachts but they are not being asked to do duty like a wakeboat as mike indicates.

interesting to see that diesels retard power until they reach operating temps and import tuners spend $$'s to lower temps going into the engine.


wouldn't it be something to hear the whoosh of a blowoff valve letting off pressure as your wakeboat gets up on plane at the same time someone does their first big air trick :)

mmandley
11-07-2013, 10:10 AM
someone else I remember was putting a yanmar in an epic hull. never did hear the outcome or any testing on it. I know they are pretty common in yachts but they are not being asked to do duty like a wakeboat as mike indicates.

interesting to see that diesels retard power until they reach operating temps and import tuners spend $$'s to lower temps going into the engine.


wouldn't it be something to hear the whoosh of a blowoff valve letting off pressure as your wakeboat gets up on plane at the same time someone does their first big air trick :)

HAHA yes it would be on the whoosh. Id be the A hole that throttles you up and then cuts power to hear the woosh all the time LOL.

not all Diesels retard power till they warm up. Claudia's doesn't.

Mine does, because i have a computer and 600hp 1000 torque and you don't want to crank out that much power on a cold engine. big diesels have 4 gallons of oil and that's a lot of low end stress when its cold.

I get the cooler air with the Tuners, but i have a huge inter-cooler on mine so it is already cooling the incoming air.

sandm
11-07-2013, 10:13 AM
HAHA yes it would be on the whoosh. Id be the A hole that throttles you up and then cuts power to hear the woosh all the time LOL.



that's funny. you watch the guys in the lowpro boats running blown big blocks running all over the lake just to hear themselves make noise and throw a rooster tail. now you have wakeboats running all over the lake letting off the throttle for the bov noise :)

NCSUmoomba
11-07-2013, 01:45 PM
On Indmar switching engines, as Rick confirmed and Mike said, its a technology thing. They can't keep making the iron 350 forever, at some point, the new technology has to phase out the old stuff. We don't drive around cars with steam power, do we (Jay Leno aside). The engineering developments of the internal combustion engines (as inefficient as they are) have done much to improve their efficiency in the last couple of decades.

As far as the diesel boats, this is not a new idea. Mastercraft offered a diesel engine (VW V6) option back in 2007, although I think it was only for European markets. I imagine is was not a big seller as it was something like a $32,000 option.

zabooda
11-07-2013, 07:57 PM
Our dive rescue had an inboard diesel on a 22' inflatable boat and the hole shots were horrendous. Very slow out of the hole as it was spooling up. No instantanous power. We got rid of it as we had to take it to Portland to get any work done on it. I'm thinking it was a Mercruiser made for salt water.

I have a feeling the new engines won't stay around as long as the 350 did. I imagine every five years the engines will be phased out as new ones are being developed. Much like everything else these days.

jstenger
11-07-2013, 09:39 PM
So know that we have all heard the big announcement, what are the new base MSRP's going to be in 2015, assuming that is when the Ford will be the standard engine? Right now, the 6.0 L (409 HP) Chevy for Moomba is a $5,630 option, and the 6.2 L (450 HP) Chevy for Supra is a $9,220 option. Are we looking at a $10,000 increase in base MSRP for all four Moomba boats? Indmar has already stated on their Facebook page that the 6.2 L Ford will be the only block that they are using, and that HP increases options will come from engine addons such as superchargers.

RickT
11-08-2013, 12:31 PM
No Joe...that is definitely not the plan on Moomba.

jstenger
11-08-2013, 04:03 PM
No Joe...that is definitely not the plan on Moomba.
I was hoping that you would chime in. Thanks for the answer. That makes me feel better since, financially, I might have to wait till 2015 to order my new LSV.

Mikey
11-08-2013, 10:15 PM
Curious to know then, With the 6.2 as the base motor block . What are hp options going to be. What will be the base model and work up from there. If you look at other brands that have 6.0L + options usually they start at about 390 HP and go up from there. Does that mean the Moomba Base motor option is gonna start around 400 Hp?