PDA

View Full Version : Horrific first trip out in new boat



gsi09907
05-30-2007, 11:09 PM
The short story:

10 friends, 1 New 2007 LSV, Memorial Holiday, faulty installed water intake hose= my new boat with only 15 minutes use on her sinking and haveing to be towed back to dock and hand trailored after the engine shut down and about 14 inches of water flooded the engine compartment... NOT A HAPPY CAMPER!!! dealer has boat now and they and MOOMBA are fixing the issue...


I hate holidays and the whole first trip curse thing....

want to see a grown man cry then sinkk his new $40K boat in it's first 15 minutes works every time...


later

JoeTechie
05-31-2007, 12:38 AM
You did not even break it in yet ? You took it out the first time loaded with freinds having no clue how it was going to work ? I find this a bit silly.

Boats are not cars. They need some "checkout" period. Usually you and 1 person works best. Break-in is boring, but once it's done, then have at it with all the people you can fit (life vests for all as madated by USCG)... By then - all the bugs are worked out.

I am Sorry for your problems. :( It sucks no matter when it happens.

You will be back on the water in no time!

-Joe

cab13367
05-31-2007, 01:53 AM
Sorry Joe, I disagree. Why is it unreasonable to expect a $40k boat to perform flawlessly the first time out? I think I read on a Skier's Choice brochure that every new boat comes with 0.5 hr on the clock because it undergoes 30 minutes of on the water testing before it is shipped out. You wouldn't expect a $10k Hyundai to break down on the way home from the dealership - why is it excusable on a $40k boat? You are right - boats are not cars - they are much simpler conveyances (think of all the engineered systems that a car has and a boat doesn't).

This is just one of many new boat problems that I've read on this site recently and frankly, it's worrisome. If I was a visitor shopping around for a new boat and read some of the new boat horror stories on this site, I would probably look elsewhere.

When I took delivery of my boat (in January in Denver), I insisted on taking it for a checkout ride with the dealer. I am glad that I did because it would not power up enough to plane out. Once they got it back to the dealership, they discovered that an electrical connector to the Perfect Pass module had become disconnected. I am glad this discovery was made during the checkout ride rather than during my maiden voyage.

Don't get me wrong - we love our new LSV and have had no other mechanical problems since that initial incident, and I think Moomba is the best V-drive value for the money. But with all the new boat problems recently, it makes you wonder what's going on at SC ...

My two cents.

Al

Pike
05-31-2007, 02:03 AM
I think I'm kinda in the middle of both your arguments. I do agree that loading up a boat with a ton of people on a Holiday weekend no less wasn't the smartest move without having the break in period done. Or at least a few hours on her. But I also agree that when you spend 40k and in my case (50k), you expect something to perform. As I have told many times before that my 50k XLV with 6 hours on her was smoking and almost caught fire. Now I understand that these boats are "hand made" and mistakes will happen but more and more of these stories are popping up. I'm not worried at all that SC and the dealers will make good but it makes me wonder what the "quality control" guys are being paid for.

Anyway sorry to hear about your first trip, hopefully it wont take 5 trips like it took me to finally have a problem free day on the lake.

Good Luck

lowdrag
05-31-2007, 02:16 AM
I'll have to agree with both of you on this one. A busy holiday weekend is probably not the best time to test out your new boat. However, speaking from the point of view of someone who had numerous problems with a new boat I can really feel his frustration. Most of the things were nickel and dime stuff that could be easily fixed but a few were fairly major issues that could also have compromised the safety of everyone in the boat.

To top everything off I can still remember one particular conversation I had with my dealer. I mentioned one more thing that wasn't working right on the boat and he told that when you have all these new things on a boat you can pretty much expect some things to go wrong. I wanted to jump through the phone to get at him. When you're laying out the kind of money that we spend on these boats you kind of expect that you're getting the Mercedes or BMW of the boat world. Not to mention I can't really think of one thing on these boats that is particularly cutting edge in the technology department especially when compared to the features on some new cars. Seriously, that's like having a new Bentley and the windows won't roll down on it and the dealer telling you that with all these new gadgets, things like that are bound to happen.

Bottom line is that for the money you spend, things like this on a new boat are totally unaceptable.

cab13367
05-31-2007, 03:04 AM
I am neither condoning nor criticizing gsi09907's decision to take 10 friends out on his/her boat's maiden voyage on a holiday weekend. Maybe he/she intended to run the boat according to the break in instructions for a short while, then find a cove, drop anchor, and hang out with his/her friends for the afternoon. We don't know what his/her intentions were. It's hard not to take your new $40k toy out at your first opportunity - I can certainly understand his/her eagerness. But this is all besides the point, which is, it should not be an unreasonable expectation for your new $40k boat to perform as intended the first time out.

Further, I agree with lowdrag that these boats are not exactly cutting edge, technological wonders. Fuel injection just this year became standard on Moombas whereas they've been standard on cars for decades (when was the last time you could buy a new car with a carburetor??). They are just now starting to install catalytic converters on boats. A cruise control on a boat is a $1200 extra whereas you can hardly buy a car these days without one (even that $10k Hyundai). A boat has a single speed tranny whereas most cars have at least a 4 speed tranny. Etc., etc.

Al

zabooda
05-31-2007, 04:18 AM
You can't compare boats to cars. You don't have two boats in every garage, the numbers aren't there. The boat manufacturers use other companies to manufacture parts, engines, trailers etc. and most of the other boat companies use these same companies. There isnít a demand to have there own R&D and fabrication of those parts and systems and be able to pass the costs on and still have a better product than what is out there as Bayliner found out with their Force engines. People are having issues with the Indmar EFI fuel rail problem but if it is inherit issue with these engines then other boat manufacturers using Indmar are having the same problems also. I canít even say there is an issue with the engines as the issues is fed from the dealers back to SC and then back to Indmar. The bulletin board users are a tiny fraction of the total Moomba ownership so if the people who voiced their issues are the only ones affected I would say that statistically SC is doing very well. Iím sure SC gets feedback and data from the dealers on issues and are tracked and trended so that they can put more emphasis in those areas. Some areas SC has control over such as the hull, compatibility and installation of components and testing while some issues such as engine problems go back to Indmar, defective ballast pumps back to the bag manufacturer etc. Some issues are easier to fix than others like go to another bag company if there is a systematic problem shown with these particular bags/pumps but engines and transmissions are manufactured by very few and the boat hull is tooled for that particular system so SC relies on a reliable and proven manufacturer of these systems and are responsive to issues. My friend, the $40K price tag has nothing to do with the expectations of the boat but it is a measure to which people are willing to spend for the boat. SC and other boat manufacturers are able to move boats out the door at the price tag that they list. Manufacturing is a complex process and many factors affect the quality and price of the product. Some discussions on this board have to be taken with a grain of salt because the discussions donít always give the reader an accurate picture of what is going on and may lead to conclusions that are not accurate.

Dave A
05-31-2007, 10:43 AM
My dealer cautioned me to do the break-in at the lake he is on. Good advice, I thought. I had a problem with a sensor, don't ask me which one, and the boat would die at idle at about the 4hr mark. I limped back on the trailer and pulled around to the dealership. He dianosed the problem, I came back next week, after I almost lost my boat over a retaining wall, another story, and we replaced the sensor. I guess my point is, no one wants to have problems with anything they buy. If there were no problems, there would be no need for a warranty. These are handmade, custom vehicles. How many problems are acceptable? if you ask SC, they will tell you none, but problems are a fact of life.

You might be able to send the boat id number to SC and they can track who was working on your boat that day. I sell toilets, SH**tty business, I know, but the manufacturers can tell who was on the line that day if we have a problem.

bamwakeboarder
05-31-2007, 10:57 AM
now after all these horror stories im really worried about getting my boat in a few weeks cause im only going to be home for two weeks and the dealer is 4 hours from where i live and I hate having to work on something brand new espessially after i just spent 40k on it; that just means more money on the parts to fix the darn thing plus time

JoeTechie
05-31-2007, 11:00 AM
Zabooda makes my point perfectly.

$40K has nothing to do with it. The $10 Hyundai is built by robots and 10,000 units of the same model are made. They have hundreds of checkpoints along the way. And STILL The first dozen off the line, never make it to the end consumer... for that matter, the first year of any model may suck - so there are simmilarities. HUMANS ARE NOT PERFECT.

Anyone heard of Recalls ?

No one here owns expensive sports cars I'm guessing.

How would you guys react if your brand new $400,000 Italian racer did not start on the first try ? OR sputtered out while cornering? Very common. Why ? They are small quantity productions all hand built.

So to expect perfection is just silly. To be silly enough to entrust ten of your friends well being to an untested vessel is downright irresponsible, but that is just me. I've been raised around boats since birth (actually before as My mom was skiing up till 3 months w/ me ;) ) I liken it to taking a brand new off-the-lot corvette to a race track... having never raced before.

A simple check-out ride or an hour or two on the boat ahead of time would have found these in a much less stressfull arena.

So my simple answer is "No, I do not expect a $40K boat or a $1.2Million boat to be perfect, nor should anyone" ... the differenece is that the 1.2Million boat has a paid capt. that takes it out for it's shakedown cruise.

With that, I truly understand his pain and it tottally sucks !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (or blows... not sure which is worse)

I'm empowered by the fact that our dealer network is better than that of Hyundai, and that we have direct links to the parent companies where that is 19 levels deep in the auto industry. This WILL be resolved and gsi09907 will look back and laugh in a few months.... ok, the sinking part would stay with me for a while. :(

-J

Buttafewcoe
05-31-2007, 11:57 AM
Bottom line is....take it for a test drive be4 leaving the lot. Might save you a lot of headaches down the road, or river, or whatever
.
.
B

Nafplio
05-31-2007, 12:19 PM
That sucks. I would hate that as a first experience. I have to agree with Joe though. If you ever get the opportunity, visit the factory. You'll see how they are made. I can't speak for SC, but I had a tour at a competitor's facility before. I am not a mechanic or a boat builder, but all things equal, I think I can put one together.
On the other hand, when the darn thing costs more than a new truck, it should perform better as well. Unfortunately, a good portion of the price tag is market driven.
Bottom line is nobody cares more about your boat than you. Even the best dealer will have limited time to work on one boat only. Please take the time to learn about it and check things out before each trip. You'll have a lot more fun.

vfrdude
05-31-2007, 01:36 PM
Just exactly does 'faulty installed water intake hose' mean? There are things that should be checked each time the boat is used, and doing a visual on the hoses/belts, engine compartment in general are some of them.

Not saying that anything is you're fault, but you probably could have avoided the situation.

mtm_lsv
05-31-2007, 02:25 PM
Same thing happened to me last weekend. One of many issues I have dealt with during my break-in. See my posting for First 10 Hours: One problem after another...under Service & Repair. What I found was my hose clamp was tight but the hose itself did not line up properly with the intake. The way the hose was molded or bent or cut the angles did not line up. Therefore the hose would be all the against the intake on one side but barely covering the intake on the other. Eventually I had to squish it up around the intake and tighten down the clamp to get the boat back into the slip. This meant the hose was then somewhat kinked.

bradcraig78
05-31-2007, 02:36 PM
Similar problem but I had 10 hours on my new XLV. Busted hose, started sinking, scared engine would be ruined. But after taking it to the dealer they had me up and running in 2 days. Engine is fine. Donít worry SC will make it right.

edwindenijs
05-31-2007, 04:32 PM
Saterday i can finally pick up my new lsv. But you scare me with all these story's!
I bought a moomba because i thougt they are very good boats but this year I read a lot of bad things.
Shouldn't the dealer always take the boat for a test drive? Mine does so I hope most bugs are out... and that the sun wil shine for me this weekend.

cab13367
05-31-2007, 05:42 PM
Edwin,

Congratulations on the new boat! My suggestion to you is to make absolutely sure that you have the dealer take you out on the water and have him operate everything on the boat and confirm that everything is operational and nothing is leaking before trailering her home. Have them show you how to put up and fold the tower, put up the bimini, fill the ballast bags, run the PP - test everything. I had the dealer install the Gravity III system in my boat and allowed him to talk me out of testing it as they had already winterized it since it was the middle of winter. Well, the first time I used it, the front bag would not stop filling. Every time we were moving, water was coming out of the overflow hole. It turns out that the override switch on the front bag fill pump was activated so that the valve did not close even when the switch was in the off position. Also, the front and the rear starboard bags leaked at the fittings. Not a big deal but something that was not discovered because we didn't test out all the systems prior to taking delivery.

Hope that helps.

Al

cab13367
05-31-2007, 06:05 PM
How would you guys react if your brand new $400,000 Italian racer did not start on the first try ? OR sputtered out while cornering? Very common. Why ? They are small quantity productions all hand built.


Wow, Joe, you must be every Ferrari and Lamborghini dealer's dream customer. And I must be their worst nightmare. :wink: If I paid 400 grand for a new sports car and the thing would not start the first time and sputtered while cornering, I'd take it right back and demand a refund. I don't care that it's hand built - it ought to start right up and it certainly should NOT sputter while cornering. I used to own an 86 Porsche 911 (granted, it didn't cost anything close to 40 grand much less 400 and it's not Italian) and it always started the first time and never sputtered while cornering (and I drove it on many a racetrack at 9/10ths). I guess I didn't pay enough for it :wink:

Joe, please don't take this wrong, but I wonder what line of work you are in that you take such a lax position on quality. I work for a global engineering and construction firm that designs and builds electrical powerplants, high voltage substations and transmission lines, water treatment facilities, petrochemical plants, etc. and for us, quality is everything. So forgive me if I am a little adamant about it.

Al

BensonWdby
05-31-2007, 07:53 PM
This is not a slam of SC or Joe or anyone else. This is just a point of view.

I have never paid $40,000 for a boat or a vehicle. My first house was only $75K. I only paid $20k for my Mobius and I expect it to perform flawlessly, which it does most of the time. When it doesn't I get angry, but I am out of warranty so I have to fix it and shut up. If I spent $40K for a boat I would be stupid NOT to expect it to work as designed. It's a boat made by people who all they do is make boats, with many years under their belt.

So I guess you are right - how much you pay for something is not the issue. The issue is this.

A boat has two basic functions:
1. Float.
2. Stop/Go on command.
If nothing else, that boat better do both of those very well before it leaves the plant and continue to do so for most of it's life with few problems. Other things like trailer lights, gauges, stereo, etc... I can see writing off to hadn-made... or whatever.

The whole issue about taking out friends prior to break-in is really irrelevant. The problem is that a hose that was supposed to be on correctly was not. That problem would have been the same regardless of how many people were in the boat. The good news is that with all the people in the boat you had more to help bail to keep from sinking.

The argument that these are hand made is weak in my opinion. In fact, that used to be Porsche's claim to quality. Not sure if that is still true. If something is hand made then it has the opportunity to be manually tested and visually inspected right at time of assembly. This should increase the quality, not decrease it. Yes there is human error, but in the case of the $10K car made by robots you are dealing with a process problem that can only be caught by statiscal sampling. With a hand made boat you have 100% hands on availability during manufacture.

Sorry but I am with the owners on this. I would be pissed, and it is not their fault. If MC or CC or Malibu have the same problems then I would hold them equally accountable.

Dave

gsi09907
05-31-2007, 09:57 PM
Well, good conversation! I pick my boat up tomorrow and go on a test ride with the dealer, he has fixed the problem and changed out the starter due to water intake and he says all is well and everything works fine. I will test out tomorrow and if it works then she will come home and sleep in the garage this weekend.

As for the engine inspection comment, the hose was on and tight but the clamp was not properly installed on the hose so when under heat and pressure it slipped off, I'm not a boat mechanic and even if inspected before use would have never checked for that anyway...


peace out!!!!

keep the tower up and the fins down

AZHeet
06-01-2007, 12:11 AM
SC may want to take a look at the issue. I had the same thing happen to my new '05 LSV. Went to the lake with my wife and friend fully intending on just motoring around for the break-in period, but ended up pulling my hair out scared as hell I wouldn't make it back to the dock before I sunk my brand new boat. Turns out the intake hose was hooked up, but not the return.

Luckily only about 45 minutes away to the dealer and they had me on the water that same day. Also cost them a starter a few months down the road due to the water level that day. SC stood behind and replaced. Only complaint is that it shouldn't have happened in the first place.

seanpatsdad
06-01-2007, 01:46 AM
gsi09907
Have them check your raw water pump.If it ran a while dry it may have caused some damage.Sorry about you bad luck.
John

JoeTechie
06-01-2007, 03:06 AM
Al, Dave, et al,

I'll keep this brief as the problems seem to be resolved (let's hope).

I am a realist. Anyone who gets all huffy about things not working as they are "supposed too" is living in fantasy land, and does not realize what they do day to day.

Anyone here actually return their cars when they refuse to start ?

Anyone here have a problem with the boat and just hand the dealer the keys and say "nevermind - you can have it back" ?

Anyone return their PC's because windows crashed again ?

Not threaten, actually walk away and never look back.

Everyone , including myself EXPECTS 100% perfection... however it is what happens after 100% is not seen that we all differ.

We are all alike - some just think of themselves differently.

For the record, I've worked in integrated circuits manufacturing (large wafers) in college - if there is a more demanding point of perfection in business (not science), I am not aware of it - our clean rooms make hospitals look like thrid world nations. Picometer varriences can look like the grand canon. Screw "Mil-spec" that shit is like 20 times less demanding. The words "close enough" cannot exist.

My family is in construction - the most out of control "close enough" industry. Quality is NOT first priority - profit is. If not, the owners go out of business or the stock holders take it from them. Glad everyone wears it on their sleeve - but true quality only comes from pride in ones work - no matter what job/grade/level it is at - I do not need to brag about my job to explain this.

Expectations of quality do not demand outrageous overdramatic responses.

Reality is that things are NOT perfect and these are BOATS - for fun... "pleasuse craft." The realiaty is that they have just enough quality control as SC deem needed. They want to keep their good name and I'm sure they are working on doing so. It may take a few bad issues like this to shake them up and change some of the line or the process, or add a few more checkpoints along the way, or take the boats out for longer checkout water drives, or demand the dealers check more items during pre-delivery, etc, etc, etc. ALL striving for closer to 100%

Human deficiencies are there - but not always noticable. The more complex a system is and the more layers it contains, the more these add up. Making a garden hose is a pretty simple thing, if it breaks, then possibly they have the wrong amount of pvc for that batch and it got too brittle. But if the hose is in the space shuttle, then the complexity of the system is beyond what can be forseen. (my ex gf woked in opf - this is a true story)


In this case - some guy did not tighten a clamp enough on gsi0997's intake.

Give me back my $40K !!!!!

:roll:

-Joe


seriously though...

Peace and flat water to all of you. I wish you all safe boating and thanks for skipping the crap above and reading this part.

cab13367
06-01-2007, 11:14 AM
Hey Joe,

Peace and happy boating to you too. I think this topic sparked some good discussion and we all obviously have different tolerances for quality issues, but it's all good.

Let's hope that SC is addressing their recent QA issues and will hopefully deliver a better initial product in the future.

Have a great weekend.

Al

shulaj
06-01-2007, 05:03 PM
Dealer Story.

I think I will head out and check some hose fittings. I've got 10 hours on my 07 LSV and I had a possible issue which forced me to go back to the dealer in Michigan to have it checked out. I can tell you that they literally blew me away with how honest, fast, reliable and nice they were with me. Simply put, I spend $ 40K with them, I had a problem, and I drove a long way to go back, but they tested the boat in the bay in their service area (which was cool), then hooked it to a computer, then after not being able to duplicate the problem every time...they lake tested it with me and then gave me the thumbs up...and sent me on my way...with a smile. So....while I too get concerned about Quality, I am equally concerned about after the sale support and with SC backing me (and my dealer) up when I need it. I'll buy 10 more boats or more before I drop....and I will tell 20 friends where I bought my boat...so take care of me SC and you'll sell more boats. They do...and I will. Thanks to the guys at Club Royale. Simply fantastic service from these guys (and it appears from SC dealers as a whole)

gsi09907
06-01-2007, 09:42 PM
Got her back and she's ready to rip, everything works fine... I did learn that my Sirius radio piece that I paid for was somehow left of thoe, anyways the boat is awesome and i am happy again....



later

Sled491
06-04-2007, 08:59 PM
See here is the one fact most every overlooked. These boats, toys, whatever you want to call them are for pleasure, and in todays life pleasure or fun time can be hard to come across. $40k, 50k 60k it doesn't matter, if that is what you were willing to spend. The problem is that when a $16 dollar hose bursts, or a wire lead fell off, it took away from your limited fun time, and I think that is what pisses most of us off. I took my boat for its shake down ride and burst a coolant hose with just 90 minutes on the motor. I was pissed, but not because of the 40k I have into my boat, but becuase it ruined a nice little boat ride.

Dollar for Dollar I still think these are the best dam ski boats on the lake!

tazz3069
06-05-2007, 09:01 AM
GS
Good to hear that your boat is back in shape. Good Luck and have lots of fun.
Mark

Psmartell
06-06-2007, 08:35 PM
I really can understand the frustrarion level for any one who had such a "suprise" on the first cruise with the new boat. I worked as career auto technician for 23 years and have seen my share of horrific failures on brand new vehicles. I am sure that you will be taken care of in a manner that is due to you for your troubles. Boats are alot more simple than modern auto's are and yes we don't expect problems with brand new equipment, but go to any local dealer and see the line of brand new vehicles lining up to be worked on everyday and I will assure you that there is alot less traffic at your marine dealer.Thank God nobody was injured and you were able to get the boat on the trailer. Tomorrow is a brand new day. Best to you and enjoy your time on the lake with your loved ones

Catdog1
06-08-2007, 08:55 PM
I manage a purchasing department and, as part of the job, deploy manufacturing auditors to seller's sites around the world. We see a lot of stuff.

There exist generic standards, such as, but not limited to, ISO certifications, that must be in place prior to adding a supplier to our qualification lists.

Such standards cover the full range of business functions, from design to order processing to personnel training.

Might be time for a review of processes and QA management philopsophy.