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MrsZ
08-20-2008, 04:38 PM
Here are a few pics of me at Sinclair. No course there so of course I got all 6 every time! Happy now zegm??

Right Side
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/zmega/Skiing/ginny_rightside2.jpg

Last Cut
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/zmega/Skiing/ginny_leftside1.jpg

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/zmega/Skiing/ginny_pullout.jpg

One Tired Moomba Momma!
http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc184/zmega/Skiing/tired_mama.jpg

tazz3069
08-20-2008, 05:14 PM
Not bad MRS. Z. Glad to see that you are in full force again. I mean after the surgery and everything. LOL
Tazz

Mrs.Daze
08-20-2008, 08:27 PM
Zach got some good shots of you!

Sled491
08-20-2008, 08:39 PM
That last one is priceless LMAO! Great looking pic though, real solid form and position.

moombadaze
08-20-2008, 09:26 PM
MrsZ, very impresive. Skiing for me is a distant memory that i really miss.

deerfield
08-20-2008, 11:21 PM
Mrs Z - Wow! That's great! And I know how you feel. Heart rate's up a few beats and it takes a few minutes to haul yourself into the boat. Keep up the good work. - Deerfield

MrsZ
08-21-2008, 06:18 PM
Thank you guys. That last pic made me laugh too! I didn't know he took it!

Sled, where is my coaching? Are we going to have to drag you down here so you can ride in the boat and yell stuff at me like "Turn NOW!" and "PUUULLLL!"

Sled491
08-21-2008, 08:02 PM
Freakin computer, I had this whole 3 paragraph answer for you and my computer lost connectivity. So here I go again.

Bottom line is that your form is fine. From a few still pics you can't see timing. There are a few refinements that are basically strength related. Your hands could be a little closer to your hips and tighter to the body, but really not that bad. Shoulders could be a bit more square to the boat, but again not too much. Body angulation is good head is looking forward at the ball not the water or your feet, all looks way better than your average recreational skiier, heck way better than Mrs Sled.

Problem is that we share ski time with the next generation of super stars, little Z and Miss Z. And we are willing to spend most of our rec time working with them because that becomes recreation for us. Your body reacts as it has been trained to by years of working on your form and muscle memory much like your TKD keeps you doing the right things at the right time. Problem is the strength that comes with pass after pass does not get there. I'm not near as strong as I used to be when I was a grunt in the field.

I think it's a form of fanity that keeps us trying to be the skiers we were a few years ago, thinking why can't I do this? Nothing has changed! But really time changes all. Plus skiing is way more difficult and physical to do well than any other water sport. I have a T shirt that I wear that says "If it were easy it would be called Wakeboarding".

deerfield
08-21-2008, 09:00 PM
"Shoulders could be a bit more square to the boat"

Sled - What does it mean to be square to the boat? - Deerfield

MrsZ
08-21-2008, 09:48 PM
Hmmm, I did just start getting those AARP pamplets in the mail lately....

cutnh20
08-21-2008, 11:13 PM
Deerfield,

I think he's talking about rotating your upper body so that both shoulders are more evenly facing the boat instead of being turned sideways. If you look at her pictures you'll notice that one shoulder is somewhat behind the other one in relation to the boat.

Sled491
08-21-2008, 11:17 PM
Cutn is right. Your shoulders should always be perpindicular to the boat, while your lower body swivels in the turn.

Mrs Z, I really wasn't trying to be offensive, sometimes I say things that are taken too literally because of the way I say them. I'm not calling you over the hill by any means. Any one who can earn a black belt after a spine fusion and still get out and ski like that is doing just fine. I'm just refering to you comment about skiing tournies in you college days.

deerfield
08-22-2008, 12:20 AM
Okay. I'm listening. With respect to what it means to be square,

cutnh2o said: "shoulders are more evenly facing the boat"
sled said: "shoulders should always be perpendicular to the boat"

It seems to that if my shoulders are facing the stern of the boat (as cutnh2o says) then they can't also be perpendicular to the boat (as sled says). It's got to be one or the other.

What am I missing?

Sled491
08-22-2008, 12:30 AM
Deerfield, we are saying the same thing, I guess it's all a matter of perspective. Bottom line is square shoulders with ski cutting underneath you give you more time on the ball. Allowing you upper body to be pulled by the boat is what typically causes you to be late and miss the ball. Even though most don't ski courses or have no desire the practice or squaring the shoulders and pulling against the boat while your lower body swivels underneath drives the ski and makes for a more fluid ski and you will find combined with good deceleration helps stop slak line and floating outside the wake waiting to make a turn.

BensonWdby
08-22-2008, 02:15 AM
So everyone is a West Coast skier now? You definitely get more speed with the shoulders facing down range. I relate it to downhill skiing. The fastest way down the hill is down the fall line - straight down the hill normally. When you are skiing hard downhill you keep your shoulders pointed down hill and you use your knees to change the direction of the skis across the fall line, so your upper body is relatively quiet and your lower body is going wild (let keep our mind on skiing now...)

Similarly in slalom it seems that if you keep your shoulders pointed down course (the fastest way through the course, i.e., fall line) and just move your lower body, ie. the ski, you should get the fastest path? Not so sure - I have not mastered that myself. Too much speed for me.

From what I see in these photos, possibly moving the front foot forward a notch, maybe both feet? To try and keep more ski in the water. That depends a little on how you start your turn. If you start by leaning back instead of skiing away from the rope and reaching in, you will also come around with a lot of ski out of the water.

But then again - I am no expert - as my trip to Ski Paradise thoroughly demonstrated.

It is good to see you getting the youngsters out there to keep slalom alive. One word of warning. If you start them too young they may lose interest as teens...

Keep on swerving.
Dave

cutnh20
08-22-2008, 09:30 AM
BensonWdby,

I'm definitely not west coast - I'm old school. I would say I'm fascinated by the whole counter rotation concept but it just feels too awkward for me. I have hit it somewhat right a couple times and it does put me in a position to create a ton of speed but most times it's just ugly! Maybe if I was 15 years younger and lived on a lake with a course I'd work on it...

And I'm jealous of the trip to Ski Paradise - I've always wanted to go. How was the experience? (Sorry if I'm getting off topic here).

Sled491
08-22-2008, 09:50 AM
I'm just happy we are bringing some life back to the skiing and slalom board! Any and all opinions welcome, there are no closed discussions here. I'm alsways hoping to hear other ideas and opinions and try them, this only makes you a stronger skier.

BensonWdby
08-22-2008, 02:21 PM
Ski Paradise was amazing . Very humbling. I used to think I knew what I was doing, but they had me dial it all the way back to 15 off at 28 mph to try to undo some bad habits. I would go twice a year if I could afford it.

Things I learned that Mrs. Z could benefit from - Don't start looking across the wake to early - they had me star my turn while looking down the course - never further than at the boat. I even practiced just looking at the coach in the boat and made a full pass without ever really looking at the bouys. What I learned is that your eyes control your head, your head controls your shoulders, and your skill will follow your shoulders unless you do the whole West Coast thing.

I also learned that I was falling over a lot because I was not breaking free of the boat before I started the turn (not the pre-turn). That plus looking across the wake right away allowed the boat to pull me over sideways.

I also learned that keeping hands low around the turn and into the lean is as much about bringing your hips to your hands as it is bringing your hands to your hips.

I am back to skiing 28 off at 34 pretty consistently (not in course) and am falling less.

MRS Z. - have fun and don't take us too serious. Just nice trading ideas with people who 'get it' when it comes to slalom..

Dave

cutnh20
08-25-2008, 02:28 PM
I sure hope I can make it down there some year - it looks awesome.

Ditto on the comments to Mrs. Z. I was impressed from the original pictures - formed looked quite good to me - always something to improve on though right? That's that fun for me.

I've been working all the things you talk about. I learned to "look where you want to go" so I look straight across the course after the turn and am trying to look more forward as you described.

I started a couple weeks ago with 34mph @ 28 off (not in course) and wow I sure like the wake at that speed/length - just nothing there. And the acceleration I was able to generate was fun!

I "almost fell" into a west coast stance the other night right after my turn (knees more bent - shoulders really open - etc.). Basically I felt all scrunched in a ball but actually the pull was extremely powerfull. I generated a ton more angle and speed with much less effort. I might be starting to understand some of what they are talking about - now if I can only figure out how to do it on purpose! LOL!

Sled491
08-25-2008, 08:16 PM
The power and speed is impressive isn't it? The biggest problem is not pulling too long and getting out of shape for the turn because you just can't slow down fast enough without a tonne of slack line.

cutnh20
08-26-2008, 01:10 AM
Agreed - one thing I do to counteract this is to make sure to start my edge change right as I reach the second wake. If my angle/pull was good enough I've carried enough speed to get plenty wide and free myself of the boat and since I'm not skiing a course I try to concentrate on making a nice arcing turn.

I used to struggle with always having my front knee locked and then the ski would be very hard to complete the turn - if I keep my knees bent and allow the ski to naturally carve its arc I come out of the turn in good position for a strong pull.

Sled491
08-26-2008, 01:59 AM
This is of course the hardest part. Stopping your pull at the second wake with that much speed is sometimes the hardest part, and in fact is the biggest task challenging me everytime out. Funny thing is I looking at getting a faster ski to help on my off side timing.

BensonWdby
08-26-2008, 09:02 PM
Pulling too long - bad.... I used to pull to the second wake. I was able to slow down with extreme knee bend, but I had to work very hard and got tired very fast. I finally learned that the pull is a very short duration and to get angle you need your arms extended and low by the time you hit the first wake....

cutnh20
08-26-2008, 11:45 PM
I was just reading a very good description of this on Schnitz's site entitled.
“EDGE CHANGE, WHAT EDGE CHANGE?” that brought home exactly what we (I think) are all trying to say. It's here down the page a bit http://www.schnitzskis.com/skitips.html

I've tried recently to start my edge change much earlier and not pull as much and seem to have much better turns. I'm not on a course so I don't know if the results are any better but it definitely feels smoother.

I also reread one of the tips I love and read often. THE 13 MISCONCEPTIONS OF SLALOM SKIING. It's on the same page. If you can't tell I'm a fan of the site... :)

Sled491
08-27-2008, 12:28 AM
Cut, what a great site, I just saved it on my favorites for when I have time to read more of these perils. Great insite on what we've been talking about. Most of our conjecture about body position is in line with what they are saying, but soo much talk lately about the flat ski and the drag coefficient. Pulling to hard too long on edge off edge, man 25 + years of this and I just keep on finding things to make me better. This truely is one of the more challenging sports around.