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View Full Version : What a bunch of #$@!



Razzman
02-13-2009, 12:04 PM
So i guess JD Power is bought off as well huh? Politics? :mad:

http://www.jdpower.com/Boats/ratings/ski-wakeboarding-boat-ratings

jester
02-13-2009, 12:17 PM
Wow Nautique hit perfect in all area's? I know they where good boats but still. Atlease Moomba did better then Tige and the same as Malibu for alot less of a price.

moombadaze
02-13-2009, 12:22 PM
I have absolutely no faith in jdpowers for anything.

Strange that the same engine gets rated different for different boat builders.

kaneboats
02-13-2009, 12:25 PM
I noticed that too. What a bunch of crap. Their auto stuff is completely rigged too. Who cares about how people feel after the first 60 days of ownership? Talk to them after 4 years. That might matter.

Razzman
02-13-2009, 01:42 PM
Here's what gets me about this and what most people just don't get. $70K + does not neccessarily get you a better boat! Crawl under, in & out of any boat and you'll realize that they are all built pretty much the same! All the surface bling in the world won't disguise that if you really look at a boat from the manufacturing point of view, but people don't think of it that way. They see chrome, fancy vinyl & techno doodads covering all that up. The engines are the same between brands, trailers are made by a certain few. Yet you constantly hear and see stuff like this JD Power crap touting "this is the best boat!" ... Geez! What a bunch of BS this is! :mad:

sandm
02-13-2009, 04:05 PM
I think it's rigged. not necessarily bought off, but not a level playing field. I have ridden in my buddies tige and I don't find it any better or worse than my supra, and he has had more cosmetic issues than I have...

oh well..

MrsZ
02-13-2009, 04:41 PM
While I love the value of our boat, the extra price is not always only about bling. The Nautique for example is manufactured with the engine and drive shaft assembly in a perfectly straight line and perfectly centered in the boat. They use laser sighting to align it at the factory. It is noticeably different from our LS.

MrsZ
02-13-2009, 04:55 PM
My point was that they take the time to line the stuff up and I could easily see that. Not that a laser is some high tech piece of equipment... cause I can use one too. And I am just a girl. ;)

Razzman
02-13-2009, 05:08 PM
Nor is it worth an additional $30K+ over the price of my LSV! Your right Ed, i have an aligning laser i used for my Harley before i sold that.

To be totally honest i was actually looking to buy a new Tigé Z1, their supposed entry level boat. But with a sticker average of $50K not including the goodies i wasn't about to buy it. Especially after i looked it over, rode in it and realized it was small and built no better than any other boat. If you talk to any Tigé owner or dealer their big claim to fame is "it's a safe and deep boat", "takes the chop well" or "doesn't need ballast", bfg! So does a blasted aircraft carrier, doesn't mean i want one of those!!

So i was just about to pull the trigger on a '02 Supra Launch with 120 hours for $22K when i found the LSV otd for $39K. After we test rode our LSV i bought it on the spot. Am i glad i found the LSV! :p

Razzman
02-13-2009, 05:45 PM
Here in my neck of the woods we have Malibu, Centurion, Sanger, Wakecraft manufacturing plants. I've toured all of them except the Wakecraft facility and regardless of what they all say, they are all built the same. Just my opinions and observations.

zegm
02-13-2009, 07:05 PM
OK first let me say that we LOVE our Moomba! But we have access to a few MC's and Tiques and have crawled all over them as they are sitting together outside, not on the water.
First point, our driveshaft/engine is NOT centered in our hull!!!! It is almost on the edge of being not workable and I WILL INVITE anyone to come see, it is obvious! Second, they are NOT the same engine, you have PCM and Indmar, PCM does a better job in a couple of areas, for examble the dreaded fuel pump issue, PCM engines don't have this problem, they have worked through it and have a BETTER system. Are they a better at making Marine conversions, I don't know.
We thought our new cover was awesome, I saw the same cover on a Tique and let me tell you it was better quality, I was shocked it is a good bit better.
Is there more bling in the other boats...YES!!! I can't stand the gaudy towers on any, the Moomba tower is a thing of beauty for it's simplicity and functionality. And in my personal opinion the LS/LSV hull is one of the most elegant boat designs I have ever seen, nobody has a prettier hull, but guys (and gals) Moomba isn't the best at everything!!!
They are the best at doing the BEST JOB for the MONEY!!!! They are the VALUE KINGS!

moombadaze
02-13-2009, 07:42 PM
the Moomba tower is a thing of beauty for it's simplicity and functionality. And in my personal opinion the LS/LSV hull is one of the most elegant boat designs I have ever seen, nobody has a prettier hull,


Zegm, i agree 100%

Reese350
02-14-2009, 08:56 AM
All I know is that I was on one of these "perfect" Natiques last year and there is no way I would trade my LSV for it. To me, the styling looks outdated and the wake wasn't that great....just not my style.

zegm
02-14-2009, 09:34 AM
No doubt Moomba probably uses a VBSS program. But the hole through the hull where the driveshaft passes through on the LS and probably the Outback are eyeballed and this does cause us some problems on our hull!
And I agree Ski Natique has got to do some styling work! I would rate MasterCraft second best looking unti I look at the awful looking funky tower!

maxpower220
02-14-2009, 11:01 AM
To be fair, owners are filling out those surveys. For most people who buy a Moomba, this is their first inboard. Most people do not just into a Nautique first as they tend to be the most expensive brand of inboard. Most inboard brands have loyal customers and many Nautique owners have had many of their boats.
Styling is a personal opinion; some like some things, some don't. I personally don't care for the Nautique wake or price tag and will never own one. Having been in many of them both newer and old, they are extremely well made boats. Not a fan of PCM, that that was mostly based on the Ford engine.

moombadaze
02-14-2009, 02:01 PM
Zegm, one thing is bugging me. If you stand at the rear (say 5-10 feet back) of the boat and look forward is the prop shaft sitting to one side or is it right in the middle under the boat?

moombadaze
02-14-2009, 03:24 PM
Im not bugged about mine. Something just does not sound right-well something i just cant picture in my mind.

moombadaze
02-14-2009, 03:31 PM
Thats it. Someday i will get to see with my own eyes and then it will make sense to me.

one month to go:D

moombadaze
02-14-2009, 03:33 PM
Is there a u-joint from the engine/trans to the prop shaft?

moombadaze
02-14-2009, 05:17 PM
I got Tammy a new transmission for Valentines Day. What did you get Laurie?


ummmmm uuuummmm-let me get back to you on that.:rolleyes:

Mrs.Daze
02-14-2009, 05:21 PM
I gave specific instructions he was NOT to buy me anything! I'm just looking forward to hanging with my best friend and love of my life this evening :)

zegm
02-14-2009, 06:40 PM
Gentlemen,

First let me say this, I have owned an inboard ski boat for over 30 years and have been around them and other owners for that time too. I think Moomba is a Great Value we LOVE our boat. BUT!!! I have installed engines in them, rebuilt engines in them, rewired them, but a complete new floor in them. I would say I know a little about them. There is a strut under the boat that supports the driveshaft, this strut needs to be parallel to the front to rear axis of the boat. It might not be directly on the center line but it needs to be parallel. Once this strut is mounted then the driveshaft will follow it. The horizontal angle is fixed by the casting. The port to starboard orientation of this strut is fixed by how the screws are drilled through the hull and into the backing plate. Now follow the driveshaft up until you see it enter the hull and there the hull is formed with a semi circular cavity that is big enough for the driveshaft and sealing device to mount to. On our boat this is offset to the port side and it is obvious it is off, since we are traveling this weekend I can't take a picture but we will. Now what does this mean? For anyone who has seen a DD engine you will see that you have a few inches of adjustment so that the engine can be tilted fore and aft and can be shifted from port to starboard. Once the shaft is put into the strut (which can not be adjusted after it is mounted) you must line/orient the engine/tranny coupling up with the coupling on the strut. This can be time consuming if you ever have to do it. OK now lets get to our boat, I have pictures of it from the dealership before I ever picked it up and you can see that the engine is shifted off to port side of the ski pylon, the pulley on the engine is not centered. OK now lets go back to the oil filter issue, one reason we could not get our filter out is because we could not even get our hand in between the stringer and the block on this side. Yet I can stick my whole leg down the gap on the starboard side. When I looked at the adjustment rods (horizontal rods that allow you to slide the engine from side to side a couple inches for alignment) I noticed it was adjusted all the way to the port side BEFORE WE GOT A NEW ENGINE!!!! Now when we did get the engine replaced the Technician did bring this up to me again and he stated that luckily that there was just enough adjustment to align the prop shaft with no adjustment left. In other words it is in the same place as it was when the factory installed it. If you don't align it correctly you will put a slight bow in the drive shaft and after a year or two it will break the driveshaft in two. I found this out many years ago when I had an engine mount slowly sink into the wooden stringer. Again we are not home but we will take pictures and show you. It does not bother us because it is correctable and you could say it is in "tolerance". It just makes it a b!tC& to get to the oil filter.
Again we love this boat but nothing is perfect and there are some good things about the other brands. But for our money we will take our Gorgeous Blue Moomba. And be careful about talking about things you don't understand, I will be more than happy to inform, educate, provide pictures, providing you can of course accept that I have grammer and spelling issues. I am an engineer with over 20 years of Automotive and Marine experience. I was just given an award for the help I provided for the US Navy and actually had to present the work I did for the Navy to the President of ITT industries on Thursday. In other words I know what I am talking about here Mr Ed. And Jody at Florida Inboards is a True Master at what he does. There are others on this board that know what I am talking about here too!

moombadaze
02-14-2009, 09:43 PM
ok, i take it that the prop is sitting off-center:)

zegm
02-15-2009, 08:23 AM
Moombadaze,

Yeah you could say it is off center but what really happen is when they mounted he prop shaft support strut they had a sligh twist in it. So the shaft is not parallel with the axis of the boat, it is at a slight angle which caused it to run to the port side when it got to the hull. That is what Ginny was saying if they had some nice tooling aids they could do a better job here. She knows her stuff here too as she has actually workied in more factories than I have all across the USA. The plant she is working at now is BIG! And modern and clean and well it is impressive and she handles all of the programming for the machinery and inventory and etc.

Razzman
02-15-2009, 09:37 AM
Zegm, i too have done all of that as well. In fact when i completely renovated my '95 Tigé DD a few years back I realized it to was off center as well. By buddies 2000 Super Sport Nautique v-drive is the same way, off center strut. I'll admit i haven't checked the LSV, but then I just haven't had time. I know for fact my brother-in-laws Sanger is adjusted way left on his DD's engine.

Whatever the reason it's definately not only a Moomba or lower end boat issue. It's not rocket science when boat mfgrs set the bottom hardware, most use a template set on the hull and they drill in mass. If that templates even off a hair the running gear will be off. I saw a Mastercraft at a boat show a few years back the had all the fins out of align, the strut crooked and of all things the swim platform cockeyed! Wasn't obvious until you were behind it wasys but there it was! Somebody was hung over that day! :p

Membrain
02-15-2009, 10:00 PM
Is it termed laser sighting or laser alignment? We have the same thing when bolting a motor to a pump.

zabooda
02-15-2009, 10:37 PM
Very interesting Z. Thanks for sharing as I will now take a look at the pulley location when I uncover it. So I imagine you had a weight balancing and torque issue. The rudder will be offset from the prop to account for the torque but having the prop offset changes all that.

zegm
02-17-2009, 12:18 PM
zabooda,
Yeah the prop is now angled a couple of degrees off the axis, but we haven't really noticed any issues with it. The only real problem is getting to the oil filter, I have to remove the wiring harness that is bolted on that side of the block and lift it out of the way to get my hand in there. Then once I have the oil filter off I have to pass it over to the other side of the engine to MrsZ to get it out from under the motor. I have been thinking of remote mounting it to make this process easier. I still intend to get a picture of the through hole in the hull to show how it is not concentric I just have been too busy (or maybe lazy) to do it.

Razzman
02-17-2009, 12:34 PM
The only real problem is getting to the oil filter, I have to remove the wiring harness that is bolted on that side of the block and lift it out of the way to get my hand in there. Then once I have the oil filter off I have to pass it over to the other side of the engine to MrsZ to get it out from under the motor. I have been thinking of remote mounting it to make this process easier.

Exactly the same problem i had on the Tigé with the Mercruiser. Remote filter is the only way to go. The problem i had was clearance under the doghouse. Had to custom make bracketry to mount it to the rear of the motor as there was absolutely none up front.

MrsZ
02-17-2009, 05:23 PM
Razzman, we tried to order our boat with the remote oil filter but we were told it was not an option available for the LS. So we will have to do creative stuffing if we want that option. Has anyone installed remote oil filter on a direct drive?

Razzman
02-17-2009, 06:05 PM
My Tigé was a DD and i installed a remote on it. It takes a bit of creative thinking in some cases as the doghouse or engine cover is made to fit snugly around the engine to maximize floor space. Generally the rear of the engine above the trans is the best place as it will have the most room. Custom bracketry will have to be made to mount.

I have place remote oil filters on many race cars and two boats and can tell you from experience do not use hoses with hose clamps! Order or have made custom hoses whether it's rubber pressure hose or braided stainless and have the ends permanantly placed with rotating ends. Does two things; prevents a hose blowout from pressure surges and makes connecting a load easier.

MrsZ
02-17-2009, 06:28 PM
Hey Razz. I didn't mean to sound like I did not even read your post! I really meant to ask if anyone had installed one on a Moomba DD, preferably an LS. Then we could just copy what did work. :)

I KNOW what you are saying about the hoses! We have had a few messes before we started using the braided stainless steel hoses for the oil coolers in our racecars too. Mike and I raced in the SCCA BZ (before Zachary).

We were thinking of putting the remote filter in the back near the tranny too. BUT we ordered the water strainer because of the dense vegetation in our lake and that is exactly where that big thing is installed! Like you said there is not much room under the dog house! I like that name for it too.

Razzman
02-18-2009, 07:57 AM
Hey no offense taken! :p They don't make it easy do they!

98outback
02-18-2009, 11:24 AM
How does moomba get a higher rating for quality and reliability over the supra. The come from the same plant. All other ratings for supra and moomba are identical except quality and reliability. JD Powers is a joke. I looked at the nautiques at the boat show and did not like the interior setup. Supra/Moomba was more open.

zegm
02-18-2009, 11:45 AM
98,

I agree it is the same people putting the same boats together how could they be rated differently.
Having looked at several Nautiques and knowing someone from the factory I can say they are very well put together. I hate to say it but I think their biggest problem is their styling! I don't know anyone who thinks they make a good looking boat. Now if they spent as much time on the styling as they did their manufacturing techniques then I would consider buying one as would other potential buyers.Let me clarify that, a used one as I couldn't afford a new one.

Scottys
02-18-2009, 12:19 PM
Give this some thought:
I believe JD Powers gathers their information via surveys. The surveys come form the boat owners themselves. I remember getting a survey form some marketing research company shortly after buying my Outback.

Someone's reality is based to a great extent on their preception. Their preception is partialy based on emotions they fell about something. Not necessary being completely logical and impartial.

Wouldn't you think that someone that spent upwards for 60K or more for a "Brandname" boat might be slightly biased about how they fill out their survey?

zegm
02-18-2009, 12:49 PM
Scottys,

I totally agree with you, if someone spends a big chunk of cash on something then they are not likely to admit that they made a mistake. I can say that we owned a 1975 MasterCraft from 1984 to last year and the gelcoat on it still had a shine! I was able to sell that boat for 4500 dollars last year. Was it the name that allowed me to get that kind of money for such an old boat? I believe that we did take good care of it but I also have to think that the "name" helped to sell it!

wolfeman131
02-18-2009, 01:28 PM
Give this some thought:
I believe JD Powers gathers their information via surveys. The surveys come form the boat owners themselves.

Yep, I got a JD Powers survey w/ a $1 bill inside a few months ago. I was maybe 6 pages long and almost wasn't worth the $1 taking the time to fill it out. But, we love our Moomba and wanted to provide high marks!

98outback
02-18-2009, 01:45 PM
Back in 1998 I could see Moomba getting low scores but not now. My 1998 outback was not the best boat and the fiberglass was thin on the sides but my 2003 supra is a totally different boat as far as quality. It is very solid and everything on it works as it should. I would say it is near perfect. So I am sure that the new supra/moombas are even better then the 2003's.