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View Full Version : Finished the Ballast... I think.



newty
02-22-2009, 07:44 PM
So I've completed my ballast with some of the ideas I've talked about on other threads. First I've upgraded by adding an additional Rule Fill Pump.

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk263/newtyznutz/DSC06715.jpg

Next I added a new header from Home Depot so all the solenoids are out of the way and I have a new feed for my second pump.

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk263/newtyznutz/DSC06716.jpg

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk263/newtyznutz/DSC06717.jpg

newty
02-22-2009, 07:48 PM
And lastly I've used one of the unused drain ports on the front ballast bag and made a new overflow that feeds my integrated bow sack (ok not really ibs, but it will work for now).

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk263/newtyznutz/DSC06719.jpg

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk263/newtyznutz/DSC06720.jpg

And installed a new separate discharge pump that will eventually feed out right next to the factory floor ballast discharge.

http://i282.photobucket.com/albums/kk263/newtyznutz/DSC06721.jpg

I have yet to water test yet so we will see what happens. Worst case I'll have to upgrade to a 1" thru-hull for water supply. But at 10 gallons a minute each pumps should feed fine through 3/4 since 30gpm is reccomended max flow through 3/4 pipe, plus its shuch a short shared route I don't think I'll have problems.

Newty

moombadaze
02-22-2009, 08:10 PM
Newty,

What a great way to not have to drill in the bottom of the boat

Pictures are truly worth a 1000 words- i now understand what you were doing.

Let us know how both pumps work, I might just have to copy some of this. I think i would just plum one of the pumps directly to my surf bag and just block off one of the port's on the manifold.

What bag are you useing in the bow lbs?

newty
02-22-2009, 09:15 PM
600lb big air (cheapy) I used to fill it in the walk through but it will be nice having it out of site. Eventually I'll get an Integrated bow sac but until then this will get me at least 350lbs in the bow.

Ian Brantford
02-22-2009, 09:46 PM
Nice. Let's see if I understand correctly:

- you have replaced the solid intake pipe with a solid T junction of the same diameter, feeding to two pumps.

- These two pumps feed (using some larger-diameter hoses) into a two-to-three header, which go to the three sprinkler valves as usual.

- The original hoses from the solenoid-controlled valves to the sacs remain as original.

- Your center sac's unused port now fills the new bow sac, fed from the port side.

- The new bow sac will drain on the starboard side into... will it rejoin the existing plumbing, or just go into the bilge?

Did you do any rework of the sprinklers after the header? I think that there was some talk of changing the valves for larger ones, or removing springs, or some such.

Thanks in advance!

volfo
02-22-2009, 10:24 PM
Wow, that is really impressive and also happens to look like a fun way to spend "some" time.


Unfortunately, I have never seen a ballast system and would have no idea where to even begin. But those are great pictures and a great description.

newty
02-22-2009, 11:07 PM
Ian, to answer some q's
I'm actually the one that found the spring fix on the solenoids so yes the springs are removed.

I did not change the diameter of the pump discharge hose. The clear just looks bigger.

The original manifold had water fed on one side, and the new one has a pump fed to each side.

The unused port on the center sac is correct. When the center sack is full it overflows into the bow sack. Then when I want to empty it I just turn on the bow discharge pump. Just like you would any other sack in your boat.

The bow discharge pump is plumbed up to the where the center sac discharges out through a thru-hull fitting. I have not bought the fitting or drilled the hole to the new fitting/plumbing.

Make sense?

jester
02-22-2009, 11:25 PM
Great work. I did not notice the water filter after the pumps. Did you remove it out or can i just not see it in the pic's?

newty
02-22-2009, 11:43 PM
Just another bottleneck in the system. There wasn't so much as a grain of sand in it after a year, so I deceided to get rid of it. The only place debris will hang up is in the solenoid and they are easy enough to clean.

Ian Brantford
02-23-2009, 01:55 PM
Interesting... I may try something similar on my XLV. I think that I can rig up one of my original rear sacs (a 250) in one side of the bow. Since the XLV has a deeper floor, I should be able to just fit its extra "burping" top valve nearest the bow to the intake of the 250 -- and just leave it like that. It should flow back out right through the center sac, using the same hose and with no drain pump.

I don't think that I want to have the drain set up on the other side... right by the electrical stuff. I don't trust my own ability to put together something that will reliably be water-tight. I'd probably end up with the drain pump spraying water all over whatever will be most expensively damaged by it, or perhaps just when I need a boat failure the least (boat full of women, upwind of rocks).

jester
02-23-2009, 02:17 PM
Newty,

What size of solenoid's do you have? The 1" or 3/4"? Also kind of off subject what type of drain pump are you using?

Wakeboard89
02-23-2009, 02:59 PM
This may be a dumb question. I could not really see and I do not really know too much about pumps. What kind of pumps did you use? Also this is all automatic with the flip of a switch right? Great job. It looks really clean and well thought out.

newty
02-23-2009, 06:48 PM
Ian I tried the what you are talking about and the water doesn't flow back so easy, that is why I did the extra empty pump.

Jester those are the factory 3/4" solenoids. Tell you the truth about the discharge pump I have no idea what kind it is. I found it @ salvation army for $5. It had a crack in the housing that someone tried to epoxy and it didn't work. I cleaned all the epoxy off and re-epoxyed the housing correctly. I believe its a 900 gph. I see that pump with hoses on ebay all the time sold as a ballast kit.

Wakeboard89 I used a second Rule live well pump wired up to the existing factory rule live well pump.
Yes it is all flip of a switch. The only electrical changes I made was splice the second fill pump into the original. So when I turn 1 on they both turn on.
The new bow discharge pump still has the cigarette lighter plug which I have hidden and have laying right next to the outlet near the drivers seat. I didn't want to put any perminent switches in until I knoew everything is proven and works efficiently.

Jon J
02-24-2009, 01:56 PM
What a great idea to 'T' off of the existing thru hull fitting newty! It's simple and looks clean. I'm realy curious to hear how well it works! It makes sense that those two pumps should be able to nearly double the flow. Make sure you post when you water test it. I'd definately like to do something similar.

moombadaze
02-24-2009, 03:34 PM
Newty, how hard was it to get the old pipe out and install the "T"?

I was looking at my thru hull and it allmost looks like there is a reducer on it to get to the 3/4 pipe size. Its hard to tell in your pictures if you had that or not.

newty
02-24-2009, 03:54 PM
It looks like a reducer but it is all one piece. Just unplug the pump and pull the hose off. Then spin the valve and 90 off the thru-hull. The fitting is set up so if you need a 1 inch thru-hull, you can cut the 3/4" portion off and thread on a 1" fitting. The inner diameter of the thru-hull is 3/4. Make sense?

moombadaze
02-24-2009, 05:11 PM
The inner diameter of the thru-hull is 3/4. Make sense?


yes, thanks

moombadaze
03-03-2009, 09:31 AM
Newty, what size is the second fill pump-gph?

check my math if you could
one pump 1200gph=20 gallons per minute
750lb bag
water weighs 8.35pounds per gallon
need 89.8 gallons to fill 750lb bag
89.8 gallons needed at 20gpm =4.49 minutes to fill.
so with two fill pumps 1/2 the time roughly -say 2.5 to 3 minutes to fill???? that would be very impresive.

does this sound correct

newty
03-03-2009, 05:32 PM
If you are referring to the second pump I added to my system then I'm not sure. Its a factory SC fill pump. I believe they are 750gph.

Sounds like you've got it. You may have problems getting that just because you are limited to 3/4" line and you will still lose a little flow through your valves. Even after all that, your flow will considerably better! 4 minutes realistically but that's way fast for a auto system.
If you upgraded to 1 or 1 1/4 your flow would increase considerably. But then you will need to buy new 1" fittings for the bag and such. Then its all about bang for the buck. How much time and money are you willing to spend to gain an extra 1 minute of fill time.
I think after what we have found we will be be feeling pretty good about fill times.

I just picked up a set of wheels for the boat and now I need tires and spacers/adapters. So my next money spent will be going toward that.
These are the wheels I picked up. What do you think? They should pretty pimpy!;)

http://www.buywheelstoday.com/images_products/L_4231.jpg

moombadaze
03-03-2009, 07:24 PM
i really wonder about the pumps now-- i can not find a definitive answer on the size they are.

wheels and some low profile tires will look pimpin. pics please when you get them on. you have a double axle trailer right?

newty
03-03-2009, 11:15 PM
Yea its a tandem. I'm going to find out for sure what size pumps these are and I'll let you know.

tazz3069
03-04-2009, 08:57 PM
I was told that my old pump was a 500GPH. That's why I ripped it out and replaced it with a 1200GPH

moombadaze
03-05-2009, 07:21 AM
well if they are 500gph i think i will rip mine out and put in 2 800gph tsunami pumps like Newty has done. I think my local wallyworld has them for 39 bucks each.

tazz3069
03-05-2009, 08:32 AM
Moombadaze-- I still have not finished my pump system. I have been very busy at work. GOOD THING RIGHT NOW. I will attack it next weekend. I just need to add the 1" valves that I purchased, then back to the water to test.

newty
03-05-2009, 04:03 PM
If you guys remember on the "I have the answer" thread I found flow to be 650gph ish with the pump w/o the solenoids. Hopefully with the second pump things will flow a little better. We'lz see!

moombadaze
03-05-2009, 05:57 PM
well im just waiting to see how the 2 pump upgrade works.

how soon you getting on the water Newty?

newty
03-05-2009, 08:27 PM
If it ever gets over 50 and half way sunny I'd do it. I'm up to go out anytime but its hard to get others to go out when its poopy outside.
Trust me I am as antsy as anyone to see how this works.

jester
03-06-2009, 12:00 AM
Guess you will not be going out this weekend since i heard Portland area is going to get more snow. Also cold weather is never a problem as long as you have heaters in the boat and a dry suit.

moombadaze
03-06-2009, 07:59 AM
I'm up to go out anytime but its hard to get others to go out when its poopy outside.


show them the pictures of yearround allready out in Colorado

yearround
03-06-2009, 10:16 AM
if i was there, i would definately be going out for a ride.

daze, thanks for the recommendation :)

moombadaze
03-09-2009, 09:54 AM
Newty, I got out on the lake this sunday to do some surfing and one thing i found out, All the valves need to be the same size, i have one 1" and two 3/4" valve on it right now. What would happen is the 1" valve would open if i was using one of the smaller valves to fill a bag up. At this point i think im going to make a run the the home depot and get 2 more 1" valves.

Do you think the thru hull can handle haveing 2 800gph pumps? works out to 26.6 gpm. I remember you wrote somthing about gpm flow thru 3/4 pipeing but i cant find that now.

sandm
03-09-2009, 10:06 AM
what is causing the 1" to open when other valves are open? I would think it wouldn't matter?

moombadaze
03-09-2009, 10:22 AM
what is causing the 1" to open when other valves are open? I would think it wouldn't matter?

I took the springs out of all the valves and im thinking that the 1" valve just has less resestance and is opening. This is a work in progress, not sure if i will be ever done.

Ian Brantford
03-09-2009, 11:03 AM
Maybe lighter springs can be had, rather than going springless?

moombadaze
03-09-2009, 06:29 PM
Maybe lighter springs can be had, rather than going springless?

not a bad idea-might cut some spring's down a little and see what happens

yearround
03-09-2009, 06:57 PM
At this point i think im going to make a run the the home depot and get 2 more 1" valves.

Do you think the thru hull can handle haveing 2 800gph pumps? works out to 26.6 gpm. I remember you wrote somthing about gpm flow thru 3/4 pipeing but i cant find that now.

I think the flow at the pressure of the pump will not make much difference for the 3/4 or 1" valve. did you notice an increase flow in the 1" valve?

i wish you guys would get this figured out so i can know what change to make and what will work. is there anything to that guys comment on wakeworld about unwanted flows, or what ever his concern was?

mustangairchair
03-09-2009, 08:56 PM
nice clean jod aaa

newty
03-09-2009, 11:17 PM
3/4 should be good for up to 30gpm with a very short run. Like what I have. There is less resistance with the 1 inch, is all I can think of that would cause the 1 to leak by.
My original thought on the valves when I first pulled them apart was to cut the spring down a little to see if it would work when I found the no spring thing.

Ian Brantford
03-10-2009, 01:43 PM
not a bad idea-might cut some spring's down a little and see what happens

Most springs get stronger when shorter! If there is room, you could try two original springs. I was thinking of a single, weaker replacement though.

sandm
03-10-2009, 02:03 PM
thought about this in the am. keeping in mind that irrigation systems have 40-60psi at the entry end of the valve all the time, perhaps the spring is there to keep the system shut until the valve is energized and then it opens. in our system, the valve wouldn't open due to the low water pressure with the pump off, but as soon as you start filling, pressure is there, and no spring to keep it shut? since the valves in a typical irrigation system do not have power constantly, only when opened, something must be there to counteract the force of the water pressure at the entry.

thoughts on that?

tazz3069
03-11-2009, 08:12 AM
Jesse C found this valve. I think that I might give it a try this weekend.
http://moomba.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=7431

moombadaze
03-24-2009, 10:55 AM
Newty, this weekend i added a second fill pump, but i just ran the hose to my surf sack-so both pumps will be filling that bag. Hope this coming weekend to try it out.

newty
03-24-2009, 01:31 PM
Cool let me know how it works.
I keep watching the forcast for my area and the longterm is rain and more rain.
One of these days we will get out.

moombadaze
03-24-2009, 07:10 PM
week long forcast-40% chance of rain-quess what day that is, now im only off one day this weekend. think those would be 2 different days? nope same day:(

moombadaze
03-29-2009, 05:46 PM
Newty, Your Gravity 3 on steriods works. We had a break in the wind and rain, so to the lake i went, I timed filling my 750lb bag-----5 MINUTES till full.

moombadaze
03-30-2009, 10:27 AM
Were not talking about drain time yet, its just to looooonnnnnggggg. Actually off work today and going to head over to wallyworld and see about a upgraded empty pump.

Jon J
03-30-2009, 02:21 PM
Moombadaze, Do you have the same two pumps hooked to the same thru hull fitting on a 'T' like Newty's set-up? I read back trough this thread but can't see that detail. I have been watching this thread closely to see how well this system works before I get off my wallet and buy the pumps and parts. Glad (and lucky) to have folks like you and Newty blazin the trail on this!! Keep reporting on the results if you can. Thanks!!!!

moombadaze
03-30-2009, 03:58 PM
Jon J, my system is a little different than Newty's. What i have done is add the tee fitting with the orginal pump feeding the gravity 3 manifold, the 2nd pump is a tsunami 800bph pump that feeds directly to my surf ballast bag

here is a photo of the tee
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc351/moombadaze/DSC00509.jpg

this is the tsunami pump- i resused the factory fittings on this as i had them-
http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc351/moombadaze/DSC00510.jpg

this is were the hose goes into the bag- i have this pump on a seperate switch for power that way i can undue the hose to burb the bag if needed.

http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc351/moombadaze/DSC00507.jpg
in this photo you can also see my underseat bag.

newty
03-30-2009, 07:25 PM
Great to hear!! 5 minutes... thats awesome! I wonder how the dual pump to one manifold will work. Theoretically it sould be 5 minutes to fill the whole system (for surfing). That would be ballin yo! Yea now I can see how we are going to want to upgrade the empty pumps. At least the rears. When switching sides for surfing the bottleneck would be the empty time on the enzo or the 750's. My wifes going to love me when I try to explain that one to her. :0

RobertJ
03-30-2009, 07:37 PM
Newty, just tell her you will get better fuel economy. The quicker you can make the boat lighter the better your fuel consumption will be. My wife used to buy that for a while.

P.S. do you still have an older Land Lock for sale?

csmsk
03-30-2009, 09:00 PM
Daze...
Cool set-up, however... I've been a union plumber/pipefitter for 12 years and I cringed when I saw the galvanized fittings and pipe that you have installed. When you get a chance, please change them out to brass. The galvy WILL rust inside and out causing rusty water in your bags (no big deal) AND rust run-off into your engine compartment whenever water gets in there.

Just trying to kill a dirty problem before it happens!

newty
03-30-2009, 09:24 PM
Robert J, not sure that one is going to fly. Yea, that board is still for sale. Why don't you just bite the bullet and get a react board?

RobertJ
03-31-2009, 01:20 AM
Newty, I think the React guy, owner said I would snap his board in half while getting up. If you remember I am about the size of a Gravity 1 ballast bag and probably shaped like one as well.

newty
03-31-2009, 02:41 AM
Sorry, let me pick myself back off the floor... That was funny.
The classic would work fine for you. Have them add an extra layer of glass and you will be fine. It will float you way better than the landlock. I hate for you to buy that and find that it doesn't work at all for you. I really don't think you will like it. It didn't really float me very well.

moombadaze
03-31-2009, 07:23 AM
csmsk, i know that the different metals is not good-i should have added this is a temp set up as im looking for the brass pipeing, the store i was at did not have it and the galvanized was available at the time and cheap-

Jon J
03-31-2009, 10:50 AM
Moombadaze - Thanks for the pictures and details! I was thinking of adding a Tsunami pump with the factory pump like you did but with the Tsunami feeding the opposite side of the gravity 3 manifold. My concern here is that the Tsunami will pump more than the factory (rule?) pump and they would work against each other on either the suction end or even the discharge end. When you filled your 750# with the new set-up were you also running the factory pump? Did you notice if the Tsunami suction works against the factory pump suction at all?

As far as the upgrading the drain pumps. I love to coast in at sunset with the pumps spraying out the sides. Crack a cold one and sit back and relax.....it's like having one of those back yard fountains. Ahhhh summer. Hopefully soon.

moombadaze
03-31-2009, 11:17 AM
Jon, i'll try to answer.

Newty will be able to answer the 1st with the 2 pumps filling the gravity 3 system when the weather is better.

I did run both pumps at the same time to fill.

I am running 1" valves on the gravity 3 and a 1" hose to my surf bag that does not come off without cutting the hose off so as of right now i dont know if i lost volume or presure with the tsunami running at the same time. This morning i ordered the flyhigh 1" fittings to solve that. I am also headed to Ace hardware at lunch today to see about the brass tee and some other pvc fittings,

To help empty I bought a second 800gph tsunami pump yesterday at wallyworld and am going to add it to the 700gph pump allready in place, a couple of tee fittings and oneway valves and should empty in 5-6 minutes. Yes it should be a fountain:D

kaneboats
03-31-2009, 11:23 AM
Your Wally's has tsunami pumps? Amazing.

moombadaze
03-31-2009, 11:48 AM
Wally just did some changes and they have a lot more stuff

http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc351/moombadaze/DSC00506.jpg

04OUTBACK
03-31-2009, 11:52 AM
Daze, you are correct. I WAS on that Marine modular. I had about 6 Marine Accessories that I was selling for my sister co. and the eliminated all brands but 1 (Atwood) obviously... Same thing happened to me on fishing accessories modular!

moombadaze
03-31-2009, 01:16 PM
Successful shopping trip at Ace hardware-"think" i have everything to finish it all up.

csmsk
03-31-2009, 08:49 PM
Daze,
Cool, just lookin' out!

moombadaze
03-31-2009, 08:59 PM
Daze,
Cool, just lookin' out!

Thanks.

pulled the galvanized tee off tonight and got everthing put in permanently. I was worried about the dissimilar metals-not rust, but a couple drops of rusty water came out-that surprised me.

Next up-mod the empty system

csmsk
03-31-2009, 10:33 PM
Right on. Even without the dissimilar metals causing electrolisis or galvanic action, the galvy would still rust. It just does that. I feel bad for anyone whos domestic water system is plumbed with that stuff. Anyhow, glad it's out of your boat. Happy Spring!