PDA

View Full Version : Quality of work - venting



jester
12-02-2009, 06:32 PM
Well i am starting to pull apart my amps and batterys so i can move everything around for better access because the batterys in front of the door just limits storage and well found somthing that just makes me crazy. As i was unplugging all the cables from the batterys i noticed a black wire. Well when you see a black wire you think of Ground. Red is for postive. Makes since right? Well this black wire is for a positive going to the amp for my tower speakers that i have installed by my dealer when i got the boat. This is now another wire that will have to replaced becasue of someone not taking care in their work. How hard is it to do things right the first time. Sorry this is more of a vent then anything else. People not following a simple color code or running cables the right way just drives me crazy.

maxpower220
12-02-2009, 10:09 PM
Maybe it was just easier to use black.

kaneboats
12-02-2009, 10:11 PM
Sounds like an old electrician to me. They never get used to 12v systems.

BobP
12-02-2009, 11:18 PM
We purchased a new 2008 Outback V this year, no tower speakers yet ( plan on installing in spring), but with stock stereo system I have the same situation, the wire from the battery to the fuse (to amp) is black...very confusing. There is some red paint on one end but still, how hard to use red?

sandm
12-03-2009, 06:38 AM
funny, ours had the same issue. stereo shop that re-wired the amps from the factory mess swapped it out.
but then if you look at the wiring from the battery to the fusepanel under the dash, I have probably 8ft extra of both red and black that skiers did not take the time to cut to length. they just ziptied it up into the factory sub box..

my opinion, boats def. don't have the quality control nor the same assembly line precision that auto manufacturers have developed.

cab13367
12-03-2009, 03:27 PM
Guys,

For the installers, it's all about speed. If they have to get out of the boat to get the red wire, they ain't gonna do it.

sandm,

that does blow me away though that they would not take the time to cut your cables to length. I think it would have been faster to cut it than to zip tie it. Maybe they get paid by the lineal foot of wire installed :)

Al

sandm
12-03-2009, 06:02 PM
yea, it's crazy. I think that there was almost enough to run another power/ground lead for another supra boat. wasteful to say the least.
funny though that most car audio guys I know would not even dream of using black power. they would get out and do it right.

gcnettl
12-03-2009, 07:40 PM
i have used black for both positive and negative all the time i simply crimp a red insulated connector to the pos and a black insulated connector for the neg. That way there is no confusion when changing out a battery, hooking up something else, etc. The installer should have identified the wire as being positive either by red tape, a rep insulated crimp connector, or so on. I would not rewire anything, however.

If you get into factory installed systems, you will find blue hot wires, brown hot wires, wires with stripes, black hot wires, and some very mystic color coding schemes.

Razzman
12-04-2009, 09:18 AM
Some may or may not know that there actually is a color code standard for marine wire circuits under 50 volts. For the most part manufacturers use the standard, BUT as you've now seen it's not always followed. Crimping colored tips, tape and such works but is not the best way if your tracing wires and can lead to electrical mishaps. If the proper colors are not used it's due to one thing only, laziness and lack of attention on the part of the manufacturers. If you're doing that like gcnetti is then your familiar with your system and that works, but remember it would be confusing if you take it to a dealer for troubleshooting.

For those interested here's the chart of the marine standard. The confusing part of this as you'll notice is the use of multiple colors for different circuits. I would recommend to all that troubleshoot their own problems to copy this down.

Marine Color Chart (http://www.cmsquick.com/Tech.html)

kaneboats
12-04-2009, 02:17 PM
That's great stuff. Too bad it's not universally followed.

viking
12-04-2009, 02:43 PM
Not only is it an issue between manufacturers.........but each dealer handles installation of some of the options as well and I would think that is where alot of the laziness and non-conforming to standards happens. Just my thoughts!

jester
12-04-2009, 05:51 PM
Razz, Thanks for that information. That will be great to have but as i have all ready seen some of the wires don't match this.

I would like to hear from a SC person on what they think of Quality or work when it comes to the wiring and how well they follow this standard.

tazz3069
12-06-2009, 10:06 AM
i have used black for both positive and negative all the time i simply crimp a red insulated connector to the pos and a black insulated connector for the neg. That way there is no confusion when changing out a battery, hooking up something else, etc. The installer should have identified the wire as being positive either by red tape, a rep insulated crimp connector, or so on. I would not rewire anything, however.

If you get into factory installed systems, you will find blue hot wires, brown hot wires, wires with stripes, black hot wires, and some very mystic color coding schemes.

Actually, electricity, no mater the voltage, should follow a certain color code as explained above. I have been an electrician for over 22 years now. If anyone has any knowledge of this, it should be followed. Not following the wire color code could cause damage to your equipment. I will give you a great example. I was working in a house that a different company wire up. Well the customer wanted to ad lights to their Kitchen. Very simple. Now we are talking 120 volts. Black = Hot or Switchleg, White = Neutral, Green or Copper = Ground. In this case, the ground was a green wire. I went to wire everything up. Ground first, then the neutral, then the switchleg. Well when I tok the wire nout off the ground wir, I got the shock of my life. The jerk off, who wire the kitchen, used the ground wire as a hot wire. At least with a 12volt system, you will not get shocked. You will probably ruin your equipment. Follow the color code. Think of the future, If you sell your boat, then the new owner has to deal with your mess. I run into this all the time in my field.
Not to defend or throw anyone under the bus. I also had a problem with my boat and my brother-in-laws boat. Both being a SC boat. Both boats had very similar problems with the wiring. I had to completely take it all apart, locate, and rewire the entire system. I went to my dealership to explain my problem. His answer to me was SC is not a stereo shop. All they do is very basic work when installing the stereo system. I just hope there is a different set of guys wiring up the new Links System in the newer boats.
Tazz

sandm
12-06-2009, 10:18 AM
I have had zero issues with the boat part of the wiring, but when I took delivery of my boat, it had been used by skiers for almost 90 hrs as a demo. the stereo was hosed. half the speakers didn't work and left/right balance were all wrong. they paid $120 for a local shop to go thru and fix it. shop told me it was a mess. as I tear out the factory stereo, it has amazed me some of the things I have found. it's a tossup between the 5 wire splices from the amp to the tower speakers(yes 5 splices and 3 different size/brands of wire) or the black and red 14gauge wire used to wire the sub instead of speaker wire.
again as tazz said, not to throw skiers under the bus, but it's very obvious in mine that they fully understand how to wire a small block chevy or perfect pass, but have absolutely no clue on the stereo....

Brianinpdx
12-07-2009, 01:38 PM
I remember back in the day working for a cable company in the 12V industry we came up with this great idea.. LETS MAKE SILVER AND BLUE CLEAR power and ground wire that is translucent. I remember sitting in the product meeting and the head engineer asked, "how do you know which is + and which is -?". We all looked at the cables and said, "You don't! But they sure do look cool dont they?"

The real crux is that both colors would work for positive and both would work for neg.

The unfortunate thing here is, I dont think you can blame the boat mfg any of this. It's just a fact that people do things different and the 12V industry isnt as mature as the high voltage guys are.

Best advice is to try to be consistent in what you wire. That way things should be pretty clear to another person that might own / work on the boat in the future. Also, take a minute to orient yourself when diagnosing cable routes. It typically is less complicated that one would think.

-Brian

jester
12-07-2009, 08:19 PM
Brian,

Don't get me wrong i am not blaming SC for the wiring issue. Since i have not started looking at the boat wiring i wanted to know if they follow some sort of standard or not. It is good information to have if i ever do have to look at the boat wiring.

Brianinpdx
12-08-2009, 01:39 PM
Jester - I hear ya. I suspect they have a method to their madness or every boat would be different functionality wise (is that a word?) haha!. Anyway, If you need some pointers I'd be happy to have you roll by our offices but we are up in Lake Oswego/Portland. That's a bit of a haul.

There is also a great audio retailer down in the Eugene area called SoundSational that would probably be kind enough to give you some pointers. He has a CRAZY wakesetter that a lot of people have been talking about on another forum. Might be fun to see. Anyway, he's good boat guy and definitely kind and knowledgeable.

Let me know if I need to make a call for you. Either way, just know there's there is a helping hand or two if needed.

Cheers!

-Brian