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Diver14
12-06-2009, 07:51 PM
Hello Everyone. I have an issue that I hope someone can assist with. I have an 07 LSV with 750s in the back, the ski locker sack and the bow sack as well. I converted to 4 pumps on a single manifold that is using the existing 1" intake.

Fill times are great compared to before (15min vs 32min) however if I am not filling all the bags at once the system gives me problems. For instance if I want to stop filling center ski locker bag (because it fills first and pushes the locker door open) but continue to fill the rest then air starts back feeding from the center sack causing the other sacks to stop filling or fill uneven at best.

This becomes a real issue if I want to put more water in one of the back sacks then the other to offset the weight of the driver etc. I could easily fix the issue with a check valve but that would cause a restriction and slow the fill down which would make all the work I did a waste.

The manifold is on the bottom of the hull and it doesnt change even after the rear are very full which drops the boat several inches into the water so I no the pumps are below the water line. Is anyone else experiencing this and if so what is the fix. Thanks in advance.

tazz3069
12-06-2009, 08:49 PM
Diver
First of all welcome to the Moomba Family.
Now for your situation. First, the intake Scupper is not a 1" It has a 1"O.D. with a 3/4" I.D.
Now correct me if I am wrong. You are saying, while all bags are filling at once, everything fills fine. But when you shut off any bag, the fill slows down. It does not make sense. Your fill time should increase as you shut off each valve. Not sure what the problem is. So there is one pump and 4 valves. Or as you stated, 4 pumps with the existing 3 valves.
Wow. Kind of stumped right now. Let me think. I now, with my system, I removed the sprinkler valves and single pump and replaced it with 3 individual pumps and no valves. I hated those things. Very fast fill. Please explain exactly what you did.

Tazz

DOCDRS
12-06-2009, 10:11 PM
are you sucking air from the bag you shut off, thru the shutoff pump as the fill hose is on the top of the bag. and these may be closer to the scupper. put a simple plastic ball valve in the forward sacs that can close when needed, they are cheap and should not slowdown the fill rate

you have a 1 to 4 manifold with a 4 pumps , one to each bag, when you shut one off because you have so much suction from the other 3 or 2 they are going to suck from the other bags unless there is something to stop them. is that your setup?

Diver14
12-06-2009, 10:39 PM
Hello Tazz,

Thanks for your feedback. I have no valves, just 4 tsunami 800 pumps all on one manifold that I built from brass fittings from Lowes. I pretty much followed what FMan did from this post.

http://moomba.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=8849&highlight=tsunami.

My manifold is on the hull like his as well so it is as low as it can be. Only difference would be the fourth pump for the bow sack.

My hoses are the same as his. They are clear so I can see through them. When I shut one pump off the other hoses will begin to get air pockets in them. I can see the air bubbles moving through them until it gets to the point that there is more air then water. Once that occurs I can unhook the hose from the bag and confirm nothing is comming out. Really is a strange occurance.

The one other possible difference which I cant confirm would be the direction of the valve. In Fman's pictures it looks like his manifold may be runing from front to back where mine is in the center of the hull runing from side to side. This means that I have an elbow before the pumps instead of a straight shot like his. It also means that any air that might be in the manifold could act differently.

Diver14
12-07-2009, 09:44 AM
Doc,
I do believe it is sucking air from the bags that are shut off but it will happen even if I just have one pump turned on. I believe the check valves will work but the only valves I have seen are somewhat restrictive. I tested the valves that I used for the vent tubes and they were somewhat restrictive. I am curious if anyone else has made this modification and experienced similar issues.

moombadaze
12-07-2009, 09:55 AM
Diver, I believe I have the same system to fill as you do, 4 tsunami 800 pump with the factory thruhull. I have not noticed what you are talking about but im normally moving when filling also--about 12 mph. Now I could be having the same problem and dont see it as im still using the black hose and haveing noticed the bubble's.

Diver14
12-07-2009, 10:49 AM
I have not tried filling while driving yet. I did the install on my lift so once I was finished I just dropped it down and tested the system while the boat was stationary.

If you were having the same issue you would likely notice even if you couldnt see into the lines because the bags would fill unevenly. For istance one of the times I shut off the front bags the right rear kept filling and the left rear stopped so the right rear was completely full and the left was only 3/4.

Im afraid my only option is to either add the valves or add another intake and run two off of each intake. That would probably be enough volume to keep it from drawing air back in through the bags. Is your manifold running front to back or side to side.

moombadaze
12-07-2009, 12:26 PM
sorry about this but I just remembered that I also put one way inline valves on after the pumps so that when Im done filling the 2 smaller bags and still filling the surf bag that the pumps dont drain the 2 smaller bags.

Diver14
12-07-2009, 01:49 PM
sorry about this but I just remembered that I also put one way inline valves on after the pumps so that when Im done filling the 2 smaller bags and still filling the surf bag that the pumps dont drain the 2 smaller bags.

Did this take care of it completely. For instance, if I want to just fill one of the rear bags will that work or will I have to fill them together then drain one some since the one way valves are only on the front bags.

moombadaze
12-07-2009, 04:41 PM
What I have is, 2 of the pumps are filling my one 750lb bag, then one pump fills the front infloor bag and then the other pump fills the bag that sits where the cooler used to be. All we do now is surf and since I and my family all surf regular that was why I cut out the cooler. When filling up I start off with all pumps on and when the 2 400lb bags are full i just turn those off and the oneway valves keep water from draining. The one bad thing about my current setup is that I have to manually close the ball valve on the thru hull or water will drain out or the bags will self fill while underway. I will say I am looking at adding one or two more thru hulls and vented loops so I dont have to mess with the ball valve.

DOCDRS
12-07-2009, 04:51 PM
Your going to want 4 of these puppies to solve your problems
http://www.wakemakers.com/check-valve-fitting-1-inch.html
or the 3/4 if thats your line size

Diver14
12-07-2009, 07:01 PM
Looks like I am going to have to go with the check valves. Hopefully that doesnt affect flow that much. I used these for the vents as well as for a shared drain tube and I could see a difference in the flow of water on the drain side from using this. http://www.wakemakers.com/check-valve-fitting-3-4-inch.html but I may have to just deal with it. It is bound to still be faster than the old sprinkler valve setup. Thanks everyone for your feedback.

tazz3069
12-07-2009, 09:05 PM
Diver
Do yourself a favor ans shop around for those valves. Wakemakers.com has terrible customer service. At first I order my items from there and 6 weeks later, I never received anything. I ended up getting my money back and getting it somewhere else. I do have a question. If you removed the crappy sprinkler valves, and using the stock 3/4" scupper, what is keeping the water from entering the bag while under way? Are you shutting the ball valves when all the bags are full? Did you install vented loops for each pump?
Tazz

Diver14
12-07-2009, 10:00 PM
Tazz,
I actually bought the tsunami pumps at walmart and all the fittings at lowes. I picked up the check valves at West Marine. Bought everything local, I just used that link to show what valve I had used. I did buy my 750s from wakemakers but did not experience any issues.

Regarding the issue with water filling automatically. I routed my front lines up and looped them and am going to cut off the scoop from the intake. The rear lines I routed up and ran them into the back lockers from the top so they both have a natural loop in them. Since I just did the install I have not had a chance to test this aspect of the system however the vented loops dont do anything that just looping the hose will do other than allow air to come into the lines to allow the water to drop back down however with the one way valve in place that wouldnt happen anyway so I am not sure that I would benefit from them (I am speculating). I will let everyone know if this works or not. From what I have read on this forum what I am doing should work.

Diver14
12-09-2009, 10:22 PM
Just an update. I believe that the issue I am having is due to a lack of volume. I know the one way valves will correct my problem however that will increase the time it takes to fill. I think I am going to rebuild the manifold with all 1" material. It seems that the 3/4 stuff just doesnt cut it with 4 pumps. I have been told that the Tsunami 800 should fill a 750 in about 9 minutes. Currently mine takes 15 which further indicates that the water volume is to little. I will post the results of the new manifold.

moombadaze
12-10-2009, 07:29 AM
One key to having the 4 pumps is a little forward motion, about 10mph works good for me as it presurizes the intake and the pumps will flow more water, if im sitting still I get a lot less water flow.

Diver14
12-10-2009, 06:14 PM
Great news... The 1" material fixed it so all works correct now. For anyone considering doing the Tsunami 800 pumps and using more than 3 you will definetely want to upgrade the factory intake to a 1" intake and build your manifold out of 1" or scedule 40 PVC. The first one I built was 3/4 brass and it cost a pretty penny and didnt supply enough water for the pumps to work properly. As long as you have brass or bronze up to the 1" ball valve save yourself some coin and go with PVC after that. If anyone is interested I can post some pics.

Here are the fill times I experienced with dual 750s, skil locker sack, and bow sack.

Original fill time with sprinkler valves 31 min
4 tsunami pumps using 3/4 manifold and intake Fill time 16 min
4 tsunami pumps using 1' manifold and intake Fill Time 11min flat

With this 1" material the ski locker sack was full in 4min and the bow sack was full in under 7 min. Obviously the 750s took the longest at 11min and those times are with all filling simultaneously with the boat not moving.

On another not I have yet to spend any time on the water so I am not sure if I am going to get away with looping the hose or if I will have to purchase the vented loops. I will say this, the vented loops are about $100 for 4 of them and the ball valve was around $20. With that in mind you could almost buy an electronic ball valve that is normally closed and just use the original pump plug which is powered whenever any of the pumps comes on to power it. This would also decrease the hose that is needed by about 8 ft which would save an additional $20. I am just thinking out loud at this point and since I have allready gone with a ball valve I will likely just buy the vented loops if it comes to it but for anyone considering do this its something to consider.

I am going to try and get out this weekend if I get time and the weather permits. It was 80 degrees yesterday and today the high was 57 so who knows. I also ordered a 1200 tsunami fill kit. I am going to take one of the origianl 400s that I replaced with the 750s and put it in the center walk up front which will add another 400lbs. This will bring the total to just under 3k lbs. Should be a healthy wake.

Once again thanks for all the input.

DOCDRS
12-11-2009, 12:12 PM
Thanks for keeping everyone posted diver. Always nice to know how problems are solved

pmoomba
12-15-2009, 10:04 AM
Diver, I'd love to see some of the manifold pics or any others.

Thanks

cab13367
12-15-2009, 02:52 PM
diver,

So did you leave the stock, 3/4" scupper/intake in place or did you replace it with 1" as well? Can you post the link to the electronic ball valves?

Thanks,

Al

moombadaze
12-15-2009, 03:38 PM
diver, can you post a photo a photo of your 4 pumps. Just curious how you fit yours in there. I had the same and now Im in the process of ripping my whole system back out.

Diver14
12-15-2009, 05:44 PM
I ll take a picture tomorrow and get it posted. I did have to move the depth puck and in hind sight I wish I had positioned the pumps vertical so that I could replace them easily. I thought keeping them close to the floor would be best but once I put it in the water I could see the water line in the clear hoses and it was much higher than I realized so positioning them vertical would not have made much of a difference.

On another note I put in a few sets today and over the weekend and think that I will need the vented loops. Otherwise the fill levels are constantly changing unless you keep all the pumps on all the time.

Diver14
12-15-2009, 05:46 PM
diver,

So did you leave the stock, 3/4" scupper/intake in place or did you replace it with 1" as well? Can you post the link to the electronic ball valves?

Thanks,

Al

I changed the 3/4 scupper with a 1". I have not looked for the electronic ball valve however I know they are out there. Seems like jason at wakemakers mentioned that they were around 60 each but not sure.

DOCDRS
12-15-2009, 08:14 PM
nice number Diver, 3 k of ballast, pretty soon we will all have ballast envy :). any one topping that?

Diver14
12-15-2009, 09:50 PM
Hey Doc,
Any one that upgrades the back 400s to 750s can do it pretty easily. Just lay one of those 400s that you took out in the center walk and you are their. Oh, you will need the bow sack as well. I also have a couple of 3" x 24" PVC pipes full of old tire weights. Probably another 75lbs. That combined with the two batteries helps make up for the weight of the driver.

Diver14
12-15-2009, 09:55 PM
diver,

So did you leave the stock, 3/4" scupper/intake in place or did you replace it with 1" as well? Can you post the link to the electronic ball valves?

Thanks,

Al

After today I started thinking about the electronic valve and I don't think its a good idea. Even if you cut the flow of water coming in and out of the boat water can free flow between the bags fairly easily without the vented loops. I think the vented loops are pretty much a must. What I have seen is the water from the front being drawn to the rear. Water will seek out the lowest point. Since the bow rides higher the front bags will drain out to the rear bags through the fill tubes if they are completely full. The vented loop created an air pocket and breaks the siphon effect. I picked up a few today from a local store. This only becomes a problem if you want to use the system in a state other than completely full. For instance one rear bag with less to make up for the driver or to surf etc.

Diver14
12-16-2009, 09:36 PM
Diver, I'd love to see some of the manifold pics or any others.

Thanks

Here are some pictures. You can tell from the rust on the V Drive that I board in salt water. Unfortunately not much you can do to keep the rust away.

The first picture was taken from the back looking forward. The second one was taken from the starboard side looking towards the port side and I was standing in the front side of the access hatch. The picture that has my toes in it was taken from the front of the boat looking back. The next picture is from the front port side looking towards the starboard side and I included this picture to illustrate the angle that I had to use to transition from the intake which runs front to back to the manifold which runs port to starboard. There is an elbow but right after that I had to use a 45* piece and it is angled slightly to make the turn correctly and get it all to fit. You will have to play with this angle a bit to get it to work.

The last image is just to show that I used the factory wiring instead of splicing.

As I said in an earlier post I should have moved the entire manifold forward by about 2 inches and angled the pumps up instead of forward so that I could replace them easily if I ever need to. Guess I will do that if I ever have to change one.

I hope all my discriptions of direction didnt confuse anyone. I only included it because I was a little confused as to how this was fitting in on some of the pictures that I saw prior to doing my own install.

jasonwm
01-28-2010, 06:00 PM
Thanks for sharing the pics, I'm glad to hear that upgrading the intake fixed your issue. Like we discussed on the phone, if it fixes the issue and improves the speed of the system that is a win-win.