View Poll Results: Whos your man?

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  • Barack Obama

    6 23.08%
  • Mitt Romney

    19 73.08%
  • Other

    1 3.85%
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  1. #71
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    maxpower, I can agree with that.

    Sandm, I want to copy and paste but it would be REALLY long so I'll just post the link. Personally, I feel it is a pretty good summary of the major points of "obamacare". I will say up front that Reddit is a liberal leaning website, won't deny that for a second, but I do feel the summary stays on point. It also uses citations so you can read for yourself if something seems out of wack. Please don't take my disclaimer as it being liberal and not even try (not meaning you specifically sandm). If you are interested in what is in the bill, it is a solid read.

    http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikei...did_it/c530lfx
    Last edited by KG's Supra24; 11-08-2012 at 05:42 PM.
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  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by KG's Supra24 View Post
    * on principle, I object to the government forcing me to do anything. Now (soon) whether I want to or not, I HAVE to buy health insurance (or pay the "tax" as specified by the Supremes). What can't the Congress force me to do, with this precedent in place? Katy bar the door, as they say.

    I understand where you are coming from. Sadly, we cannot depend on individuals to take finances into their own hands. Health insurance is financing for medical emergencies. When people donít have insurance, others end up footing the bill, through the government. If you donít have insurance you are costing the government and taxpayers money. What is the rationale for not buying health insurance?

    My rationale? Freedom! Sadly, that is a notion mostly lost now.

    "Health insurance is financing for medical emergencies". YES. That is what its name implies. But it has morphed into something much larger and sinister. We expect our routine checkups to be covered. Our visit to the doctor when we have the sniffles to be covered. I could go on. This isn't insurance, it's handing over control to someone else so that they can tell me which doctor to go to, how often I can go, and what treatment I can have.

    Our current health care mess is a great example of how big government creates problems, and then creates more to fix them. The very reason that we can't depend on individuals to take finances into their own hands, is that their bad choices are effectively subsidized. People know that they won't end up on the street eating garbage out of the dumpster; the worst it can get is that they sit at home collecting a government check. If the consequences of doing stupid things with money were more dire, perhaps there would not be as much stupidity.
    * the bill is a gift to the insurance companies, who now are set to reap a windfall. We are forced to buy, so hey, we have to buy it from somewhere, right?

    How many of the insurance companies supported obamacare? They donít want this passing, they are doing great! They were putting up money to defeat it. This bill is not good for insurance. According to Forbes, they spent 102.4 mil in 15 months to run advertising against the bill.
    Never heard that. Even if that's true, 102 million sounds like a pretty small amount of money. Can you tell me why they would not want it? Forcing everyone to buy health insurance expands your customer base. The day that the Supreme Court upheld Obamacare, the stock health care companies shot the moon. Check it out. Wall Street very well knows where the money will be funneled.

    * the bill will force people out of work. The health care costs will be shifted to the employers, and these employers WILL cut payrolls. Employers don't magically have more money, so if the cost of employees goes up, it will have to be compensated for by laying some people off. The bill is a job killer. Here's one small anecdotal example:http://lasvegas.cbslocal.com/2012/11...-22-employees/ but this will start to happen all over the US. I guarantee it.

    So a business owner, before knowning the actual cost to him, fired employees because Obama won? That is the exact concern I have with the media coverage. It pushes knee jerk reactions. This is precisely ďus vs. themĒ. Iím not telling you which way to vote but some of you are getting fired if Obama wins.
    I said it was anecdotal. Are you denying that if health care costs go up, more employers will lay off to make up for the costs? That's absolutely inevitable. I can tell you why: preexisting conditions. Obamacare forces insurers to pick up coverage for someone with a preexisting condition. This is more expensive (hugely so) for the ins. company, and guess who gets to pay for that extra? You do.

    * moral hazard. The bill separates, even more than things are now, the customer from the service provider. Less choice for the consumer, and less desire to keep costs down on the supply side.

    One of the biggest goals of Obamacare is to bring down the cost in the medical industry. My favorite part about the bill is curtailing some of the profits from big pharma. It will actually provide more choices and lower cost the way I see it.
    This is not going to happen, and I think you're engaging in wishful thinking here. But now you begin to target where the real problem is. The exponential escalating cost of both drugs and care. That must be stemmed, or any attempt to pay for it will fail, no matter what mechanism that you chose. Anti-competitive measures are codified in law in order to protect the profits of big pharma and the service providers, etc. Those MUST be thrown out in order to make any headway at all. Why is it that one can buy a drug in Canada for $1 that costs $100 here? The answer lies in complex cross-border export laws and such. And those laws must be destroyed. As far as I know, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Obamacare does not do anything to address this core problem.

    * the bill doesn't seem to address the root problem: cost of health care. There are ridiculous import/export rules that protect big pharma, and these rules need to be abolished. Tort reform is needed to cut out silly lawsuits that cause doctors to have to pay huge amounts for malpractice insurance.

    This is a great place to stop referencing Obamacare and call it what it is. Affordable Healthcare Act. To drop cost, from my understanding, the goal is to price control prescriptions and reign in the unnecessary procedures performed by doctors. It will reward hospitals that operate efficiently. I know the word price control is scary but itís a necessary evil, it cannot rely on supply and demand bc the demand is inevitable. I also truly feel it is our responsibility to care for Americans, not turn them away bc they canít afford it. If you think people should be turned away bc they canít afford it I will assume you havenít seen a hospital bill lately. Who can afford it?

    To add context to the unnecessary procedures performed by doctors, hospitals have weekly meetings to decide how to get non-insured patients out the door and how to run additional test on insured patients.
    Also, as mentioned earlier, the American medical association is on board with the bill.
    See, that's where we diverge, and diverge a lot. Pricing of drugs and services if determined by the market, instead of being distorted by governmental intervention, will be just fine. And I know that right now, you're screaming "just look at the prices now!", and you'd be wrong. We have enormous governmental intervention right now, and Obamacare just makes it worse. Price controls have never worked, ever. I refer you to this price list http://www.surgerycenterok.com/ as the way that things can be done, right now. Look at the prices. This is how things work without governmental intervention.

    Emotions are just fine; I cry for someone who can't get the care that they need just like you probably would. But if we are going to be a country of free men and women, we cannot be bound to take care of our neighbor. Those good intentions turn into shackles that make us slaves of the state. So we choose. I choose freedom, and you don't. It's really as simple as that.

    There will always be terrible stories of someone who can't get the care they need. The poor will always be with us, as will the rich. My vision of the "way things should be" are that they exist charity hospitals (remember them?) to take care of these needs, and money-based charities set up to give care to those in need. But don't have government with its boot on my neck forcing me to pay for my neighbor. If I want to pay for my neighbor, I will, on my own volition.
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  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by KG's Supra24 View Post
    To be fair, a recession, by definition, is 2 consecutive quarters with negative GDP growth.

    Last quarter GDP grew 2 percent. The quarter prior it grew 1.3 percent.
    Try removing government spending from the GDP equation, and see what you get. That's my point. All a government needs to do to "goose" the GDP number is spend more. And that's exactly what they have done. Obama and Bush both.
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  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by dhyams View Post
    Emotions are just fine; I cry for someone who can't get the care that they need just like you probably would. But if we are going to be a country of free men and women, we cannot be bound to take care of our neighbor. Those good intentions turn into shackles that make us slaves of the state. So we choose. I choose freedom, and you don't. It's really as simple as that.
    Dude!! My (quite liberal) wife is reading along. You may have just broke her heart. Lol.

    Joking aside, you are right. Healthcare as a right or not is a fundamental difference we have. I'll get back to you on the other.



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  5. #75
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    Remember as children, our parent's didn't have medical insurance, just catistrophic. You just paid the doctor when you went. The good, bad old days.

    My wife is a nurse, she can't find anything good about Obamacare. My brother in law has his own small business, he is struggling with Cobra until it kicks in. Everyone has an angle.

    I have to be confused, I deplore government social programs, but I retired from the military and have government sponsored health care. I'm part of the problem.
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  6. #76
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    Hahaha...

    I'm sure we'll continue to hear about how it's all Bush's fault and how ol' Barry just couldn't overcome the "mess" he inherited. If he uses that cop out excuse anymore I'm going to choke. Things are no better now than they were then and they aren't going to be any better 4 years from now....book it! I'm very disappointed in the way our country is going...oh well if the Mayans are right we have less than 2 months anyway!


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  7. #77
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    Im not political but i will say this.

    Im sooooo Happy everyone is bitching soooo much about the Political campains, and the winner vs loser.

    Because Not once in Months have i herd anything about the End OF The World which is only 34 days away according to the Mian Calender LOL.

    Since this election everyone is so sure the US is doomed, for the next 4 years. So im just happy we have all come to the realization the world isnt stopping in 34 days, because i for 1 want another couple more boating seasons LOL
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  8. #78
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    We definitely have two different angles on this. My premise is somewhat based around the fact I feel healthcare cost are artificially inflated through inefficiency Ö as are most government programs (agreed) but itís not in the governments hands. Obamacare isnít perfect but itís a start Ö.

    Quote Originally Posted by dhyams View Post
    Never heard that. Even if that's true, 102 million sounds like a pretty small amount of money. Can you tell me why they would not want it? Forcing everyone to buy health insurance expands your customer base. The day that the Supreme Court upheld Obamacare, the stock health care companies shot the moon. Check it out. Wall Street very well knows where the money will be funneled.
    I think the insurance industry is part of the group that is riding out the inflated dollars. I think insurance premiums are too high (bc they have to pay for people without insurance) and I think they can get away with spending caps and denying coverage. JMís example for instance Ö 64,000 bill and 14,000 coverage Ö where is the 64,000 in cost and why is insurance only covering a small portion? I donít have any factual information about the stock market but some thought Ö The stock going up dramatically means someone made money. Who were those people? Where is the stock price now? Was it an artificial jump? Wall street is always a daylight, the money makers profit from the mainstream wallstreet.
    Also, look at what you know about insurance companies. Massive advertisement budgets and around here, the biggest buildings in town. Now, the part of Obamacare that puts limits on how much can be spent on ďadminĒ cost really dives off into a grey area for me. There should be a way to encourage that behavior without any dictation.

    Quote Originally Posted by dhyams View Post
    I said it was anecdotal. Are you denying that if health care costs go up, more employers will lay off to make up for the costs? That's absolutely inevitable. I can tell you why: preexisting conditions. Obamacare forces insurers to pick up coverage for someone with a preexisting condition. This is more expensive (hugely so) for the ins. company, and guess who gets to pay for that extra? You do.
    I think the real cost of this thing still has some ďto be determinedĒ. My frustration from that articles comes from the fact I think small business owners will lay off employees for ďtheir teamĒ and their own agenda.
    Preexisting conditions Ė guess who is paying for that now? You do. Using obesity as an example, someone with cardiac issues comes into the ER with no insurance. They get helped (itís the ER) but canít foot the bill. They donít qualify for medicare bc they make too much money. There are not enough Bill Gates and Warren Buffets to pay the hospital bills for these people. So what happens, the hospitals are forced to artificially inflate cost to patients with insurance. Cost to insurance companies go up, your premiums go up. Meanwhile, this person gets sent home immediately (bc of no insurance) and receives no follow up care and more importantly no preventative care. He is back in two months bc of this and the cycle starts all over.


    Quote Originally Posted by dhyams View Post
    This is not going to happen, and I think you're engaging in wishful thinking here. But now you begin to target where the real problem is. The exponential escalating cost of both drugs and care. That must be stemmed, or any attempt to pay for it will fail, no matter what mechanism that you chose. Anti-competitive measures are codified in law in order to protect the profits of big pharma and the service providers, etc. Those MUST be thrown out in order to make any headway at all. Why is it that one can buy a drug in Canada for $1 that costs $100 here? The answer lies in complex cross-border export laws and such. And those laws must be destroyed. As far as I know, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Obamacare does not do anything to address this core problem.
    We agree on the core of the problem. Until you mentioned export laws I had not given it a lot of thought. The protections I feel are given to Big Pharma are in the way of patent laws. They are granted a monopoly over a drug until it expires, right before it expires they turn it into a continuous release and snag a new patent to keep the drug in only their hands and not letting a generic market form. Obamacare does address this issue. Iíll check out the export laws.

    Quote Originally Posted by dhyams View Post
    See, that's where we diverge, and diverge a lot. Pricing of drugs and services if determined by the market, instead of being distorted by governmental intervention, will be just fine. And I know that right now, you're screaming "just look at the prices now!", and you'd be wrong. We have enormous governmental intervention right now, and Obamacare just makes it worse. Price controls have never worked, ever. I refer you to this price list http://www.surgerycenterok.com/ as the way that things can be done, right now. Look at the prices. This is how things work without governmental intervention.
    That is likely a system that controls cost and promotes efficiency. They donít just run with an inflated system. If you looked at their pay structure, I bet it would be based on performance. The inefficiencies in the system now stem from a non performanced based structure. Doctors inflate cost on medicare patients and an insured patients in an attempt to cover for those they donít get paid for. How do you cap the inefficiency from continuing to grow? I think there are attempts at this in the bill.
    Wanted to go into more but donít have time right nowÖ. We do have a fundamental difference though. I have a hard time not lumping healthcare into ďpromote the general welfareĒ along with education, police, fire, etc.
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  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by mmandley View Post
    Im not political but i will say this.

    Im sooooo Happy everyone is bitching soooo much about the Political campains, and the winner vs loser.

    Because Not once in Months have i herd anything about the End OF The World which is only 34 days away according to the Mian Calender LOL.

    Since this election everyone is so sure the US is doomed, for the next 4 years. So im just happy we have all come to the realization the world isnt stopping in 34 days, because i for 1 want another couple more boating seasons LOL
    I read somewhere that they found a new version of the calendar that shows the world will not end this december, but some point in the distant future. we're all safe for another 4 years of boating season.. that is if we can afford the gas in 4 years
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  10. #80
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